Question for confusing daytime/nighttime charts

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tripleooo

Well-known member
This question can be applied to many people who have their Sun just below the descendant or just above the ascendant.

Say, someone has his/her Sun below the ascendant, but it shifts to the 7th house with whole signs and appears as if it is above the ascendant-descendant axis. Would it be counted as a day birth or a night birth?
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
tripleooo said:
I will use my chart as an example of my question,
but this question can be applied to many people who have their Sun just below the descendant
or just above the ascendant.

My Sun is in the 4th degree of Aries and my ascendant is in the 25th degree of Libra, so if we see the ascendant-descendant axis as it is,
my Sun is below the horizon and therefore I was born at the nighttime.
But traditionally the whole house system was used, which shifts my 1st house house cusp to 0 degrees Libra,
which makes my Sun go into the 7th house and now it seems as if I was actually born at the daytime.
In this case, would you consider me being born during the day or during the night?
Click to expand...
Your chart is a night chart :smile:
Helpful if you would post your natal Placidus version
as well as your natal Whole Signs version
in any event for clarification
 
M

mossadrai

Well-known member
Tripleooo, please don’t forget, as many astrologers do, that by using Whole House system the ASC is not moved to the beginning of the sign. As you see in the second image you posted, the Asc is shown as a planet in this kind of system, and in your case is at 25 Libra. Therefore, DSC is at 25 Aries, and the Sun would still be below the descendant, making it a nightchart, as JUPITERASC said.

This confusion is in great part due to the fact that people tend to associate the ASC as the beginning (cusp) of the 1st house, but this is the case only in divisional charts.

BEST
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
mossadrai said:
Tripleooo, please don’t forget, as many astrologers do, that by using Whole House system
the ASC is not moved to the beginning of the sign.
As you see in the second image you posted, the Asc is shown as a planet in this kind of system,
and in your case is at 25 Libra.
Therefore, DSC is at 25 Aries, and the Sun would still be below the descendant,
making it a nightchart, as JUPITERASC said.

This confusion is in great part due to the fact that people tend to associate the ASC as the beginning (cusp) of the 1st house,
but this is the case only in divisional charts.

BEST
Click to expand...
dr. farr provided a great synopsis just days ago on this topic :smile:

dr. farr said:
Yes the BORDERS of the houses in whole sign are all 0;
but the CUSP
-originally meaning the "point" of the house, NOT its BORDER
-is and always has been (since the time of the pre-house Circle of the Athela)
-a projection of the ascending degree into each subsequent house:
this is well established in, for example, commentaries to the works of Paulus Alexandrianus (4th century CE) by Heliodorus:
astrodienst does not follow the projection of the ascendant as the cusp (sensitive point) in subsequent houses
in its charting format for whole sign houses
because quite simply they don't know any better
(just as for a very long time astrodienst did not include the Manilius decans as a chart drawing option)...

Since converting from Placidus to whole sign (late 1990's) it has always been my practice
to consider the cusp of whole sign houses as the sensitive degree of each house,
projected from the ascending degree:
I got this originally from the works of Robert Hand,
and later from my study of Paulus Alexandrianus and his commentator,
and also from various contemporary authors in their works describing the practice of Greco-Roman astrology,
so its not something I made up:
if one does not believe in the historical use of the ascending degree as the sensitive point (cusp) of subsequent houses
as part and parcel of the whole sign house format,
then one is simply ignoring what is already written and published about this aspect of the whole sign house format.
Click to expand...
 
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