Putin: White hat or villain?

Traditional astrology says if you find Moon and Sun and Saturn and Mars in signs not their own then they indicate the loss of brothers.

Those conditions are fulfilled in Putin's chart.

Venus in the Asc opposition Jupiter denies brothers. That condition is also met in Putin's chart. Note that Venus on the Dsc opposing Jupiter denies brothers and often denies children as well.

The US government. From the New York Times: The Cincinnati study exposed patients to the highest levels of whole-body radiation and, some experts say, probably caused the most deaths of all the known Government-sponsored radiation experiments since World War II.

The British government. From Youtube: At 47:47, hear the harrowing tale of Pritam Kaur, a Punjabi mother in 1969 Coventry, England, unknowingly subjected to illegal radioactive experiments by the MEDICAL RESEARCH COUNCIL.

According to you, so long as the Russian government lied to the troops about the radiation, or if the Russians called it "an experiment" it's perfectly okay.

Did you know him before that? I think not.

Are you living with him?

How do you know?

Look at Churchill's chart.

Show us where you said the actions of the US and Britain are immoral.

That is unsupported by astrology.

Tell that to the people in all of the countries the US dominates.

Not relevant.

You're not very knowledgeable on the subject matter and an intellectually honest person would never comment on something they know nothing about.

The Bush Administration illegally overthrew the Ukrainian government and installed a puppet.

Explain how that is morally justified.

The Bush Administration subsequently pushed its new puppet for a naval base in Crimea. Because you are not familiar with the geography of Earth, you are not able to understand that action would have denied Russian merchant and naval vessels access to the entire Mediterranean and Black Sea Region.

It was the immoral actions of the US (and Britain) that led to the action in Crimea.

When the Ukrainian people cast aside the US puppet, the Obama Administration then initiated another immoral illegal overthrow of the Ukrainian government in 2014. That's how a whole bunch of Democrat supporters ended up on the boards of Ukrainian companies.

The US media reported rebel groups besieging Kiev in response to the illegal overthrow of their government, but other countries correctly reported it as an attempted counter-coup (which failed.)

It is once again the immoral actions of the US (and Britain) that led to the current conflict.

Hypothetically, assume Russia illegally overthrew the Mexican government in 2004 and was pushing for a naval base in the Gulf of California between Mexico-proper and the Baja Peninsula.

Would the US be morally justified in seizing the Baja Peninsula to prevent Russia from establishing a naval base?

Assume the Mexicans subsequently tossed the Russian puppet and then Russia initiated a new coup and put a new puppet in charge with the intent of militarizing Mexico.

Assume that President Biden invaded Mexico in response.

Are you going to call Biden a "sociopath"? Are you going to claim the US is committing atrocities? Are you going to claim the US had no just cause to invade?

If you wouldn't do that, then your position is 100% hypocritical.

When do you plan on doing that?

He's not a villain, either, in spite of your attempts to villainize him through unsupported astrological claims.

Why not? It's exactly the same. The US threatened Russia by putting missiles in Italy and Turkey. Russia could not respond to the use of those missiles without escalating to the use of ICBMs or SLBMs, which would contradict Russia's policies on nuclear weapons. The only way to negate the US strategic advantage was to place equivalent missiles in Cuba.

Had Kennedy not ignored Eisenhower and had he not been so brazenly hostile and aggressive, the Cuban missile crisis would never have happened.

And what of US efforts to destabilize other countries?

Although this is just anecdotal, some of us have these Sun - Saturn aspects, I have the opposition, myself can be in conflict with establishment, sometimes I am not aware I am even doing it, until after and Saturn is "used" against me (Saturn in 12th of hidden enemies).

I have a friend co-worker she is a Taurus stellium with Saturn in Taurus and Moon in Capricorn.

She needs words to help her through some days, she has terrible anxiety to the point of debilitating her, she will sometimes cry at work whilst she works, not harming anyone or looking for sympathy, her mind (Moon) is in detriment and cannot form a healthy emotional self.
She gos to therapy and is always better after a session and she does have medications.

My brother is a Sun conjunct Saturn in Capricorn, he has low self esteem.
He did the part of being Saturn where his self esteem was hightened, until the same finger was pointed back and he took a big knock.

I wish I could say "This is not supported by astrology"

Well it certainly adds up to observation.

david starling

Well-known member
With chart-ruler Pluto trining Mars and conjunct the M.C. in Putin's natal chart, this latest Russian offensive correlates to tr.Pluto stationing direct on Oct.10.


Staff member

Putin may have whole stellium of Libra, but it falls in what is either known as the house of self undoing and deception, or more recently, a house commonly seen in the the charts of world leaders. And that stellium includes Saturn and Neptune. Malefics.
This is an interesting observation. Another 12th house sun is President Biden.

I think any sign and house can be used for good or ill. Traditionally, the sun (identity) is accidentally debilitated in this house of self-undoing, and in its essential debility (fall) in Libra. Which isn't to say this means a weak person. Rather, strength comes from identifying (sun) with a cause or constituency greater than oneself. I think this double whammy is what encourages Putin in a kind of messianic belief that he has to rescue a victimized (12th house, also) Russia from western decadence and to restore it to its former USSR and czarist glory.

I wonder, also, about Putin's penchant for appearing before the press in these massive opulent rooms that dwarf ordinary human beings. At 5' 7", Putin is a physically small man, but the white and gold palace interiors suggest that he represents a Russian glory much bigger than himself.


Staff member
Neptune in Mercury can be idealistic, visionary, or delusional.

Although Putin at this point in his career seems visionary in his sense of working to restore Mother Russia to an imagined :neptune: past greatness, it is worth recalling that Joseph Stalin had Mercury trine Neptune. The vision was there, but in both cases, a massive amount of cruelty, as well. (Stalin Mars opposite Pluto, Putin Mars trine Pluto.)


Well-known member
What's a Libra denier?

Ever heard of a rusted mirror? Well,they reflect either poorly, or they reflect nothing.

Or did you forget that Hitler had Libra rising? And he was a Uranian too, he had it on his ascendant. And he did want to make the world a better place, by his, well, lights.....

Putin may have whole stellium of Libra, but it falls in what is either known as the house of self undoing and deception, or more recently, a house commonly seen in the the charts of world leaders. And that stellium includes Saturn and Neptune. Malefics.
Neptune can be a benefic, too, like in my chart, Neptune is both a malefic and benefic as it gives me a good intuition and clairsentience, and even clairaudient, but it also gives me addiction and procrastination, too...


Well-known member
The concept of detriment has been around in traditional astrology for centuries, as the opposite of domicile. It is found in Ptolemy (ca. 150 CE,) although that may either be older (as Ptolemy was basically a textbook author) or it may be a later medieval gloss on his Tetrabiblos.
I don't do Ptolemy.

Two foremost astrologers of Hellenistic astrology, Benjamin Dykes and Chris Brennan, date the concept of detriment minimally to late Antiquity, with Rhetorius the Egyptian, where detriment appears in a well-developed form. But conclude that it is much older.

Their claims have been thoroughly refuted. There's no such thing as detriment. That concept was concocted by the Medievals who botched everything because they didn't understand what they were reading and then mistranslated it badly probably because the people who translated those texts messed up the translations.

I've got a copy of Rhetorius. Do you?

Yeah, and obviously you didn't read it or didn't understand what you read because Rhetorius doesn't mention it. Brennan and Dykes claiming he mentions it doesn't mean he did.

Brennan and Dykes are seriously confused. Oppositions are bad and the issue is a star in opposition to anything whether that is a lot, another star, a place, or its own sign. Brennan and Dykes just can't wrap their brains around that.

Rhetorius is familiar with Ptolemy and Ptolemy says the temperament which arises from the dissimilarity of the signs produces a different and adulterated nature and the only thing Rhetorius does is try to explain what Ptolemy said by using an analogy. Rhetorius noted that Ptolemy said the lights are opposed to Saturn because of their temperaments and Ptolemy falsely believed that was the rationale for the exaltations and depressions (falls). Ptolemy's entire scheme of dignities is based on the stars being in signs with similar qualities which enhances their nature or being in signs of dissimilar qualities that weakens them.

Antiochus ignored detriment because it doesn't exist. All he did was rave about the Aquarian Sun and said this guy's gonna be emperor and he was Emperor Hadrian who is universally recognized as one of the 5 good emperors because he reformed the military and spent a bunch of money starting schools for education and made everyone in the provinces Roman citizens instead of just the people who lived in Rome.

It's a good thing Antiochus didn't listen to Brennan and Dykes because he would have gotten it wrong.

Modern astrology doesn't deal with essential debilities like detriment and fall, but you could hardly do traditional astrology today without it. As you would know if you actually practiced it.

I do just fine ignoring detriment and so do many other traditionals. If Sun is in detriment in Aquarius then it's also in detriment in Gemini and Libra for the same reason.

Sect is used in traditional astrology, but it is an "accidental" dignity or debility, and not one of the major one, such as angularity or support from a benefic.

Sect is not a dignity but it is a major issue and a star not in its proper sect is a malfunctioning star regardless of where it is in the chart.

I hope no one comes to you for marriage advice because you'll ignore an out of sect Venus and let them marry a womanizer.

Trigons can confer an essential dignity, but they are hardly up there with domicile and exaltation.

Trigons are everything. If you read any of the Greeks you'd know that. The trigon rulers assist the sign ruler.

The moon has no essential dignity in Gemini. Trying to turn Czar Vladimir into some warm, caring individual is not supported by his chart.

Essential dignity is a silly Medieval/Arab/Persian thing. Moon is in the term of Venus and face of Jupiter. I'm sorry you reject the modern astrology interpretation.

You probably won't like this modern astrology interpretation either since you views are biased and prejudiced:



You have a basic need for mental stimulation. You are curious and seek answers to many questions. You are a chatterbox. When young, you may have called upon your mother to provide stimulation and activity.


The Moon is placed in the 8th House of your birth chart suggesting that you have a need to understand the cycles of life and the metaphysical nature of the world. What happens after death? What energies are at play in human relationships? and Why do certain events seem to be synchronised? These are all questions which could be food for thought. You're sensitive to the emotional undercurrents in many situations and want to explore this further, even if this means exploring the world of occultism.



The Twelfth House is about endings. It is about your hidden strengths and weaknesses. It is also about institutions such as hospitals, jails, libraries and the armed services. Other exoteric and esoteric keywords include: Institutions, fears, hidden enemies, the collective unconscious, spirituality, unredeemed karma, selfless service to humanity.


Even-handed, harmonious, artistic, diplomatic, balancing, strong sense of fairness. Can be over-compromising, appeasing, judgmental.


TRINE SATURN Orb 14°33' Applying

You have an inner self-confidence which helps you build firm foundations in your life and achieve your ambitions. You work solidly to build yourself a secure and firm footing, earning the respect of those around you.

OPPOSITION MARS Orb 23°37' Applying

Your struggle to express yourself assertively usually ends in conflict. Arguments and emotional disputes abound in your life. You may find that your loved ones are often angry. Letting off steam in sports or activities that demand high concentration will help you achieve a balance.

TRINE THE SUN Orb 11°01' Applying

Your basic nature is easy-going. You find that your emotions contribute positively to your life. You have a tendency to sit back and let things slip past rather than being assertive as you are not personally ambitious.

TRINE MERCURY Orb 20°16' Applying

You are able to communicate your thoughts and feelings with ease. You may be a charming person, at times manipulative. You have a talent for making decisions based on both your heart and mind.

CONJUNCTION PT FORTUNE Orb 19°15' Separating

Good fortune is likely to feature in your life, particularly in connection with women. When your self-esteem is strong and you are feeling stable then you can attract wealth, health and happiness, particularly through your relationships with women. However, if you are feeling upset, lost or lonely then you may be tempted to compromise your good fortune. You need to ensure that you remain at peace with your own emotions and all will be well.

SEXTILE THE MIDHEAVEN Orb 18°18' Separating

Intuitively you know where you are heading in your life. This may be as a result of the loving and guiding hand of your mother, or a member of your mother's family. You are able to choose a career that suits you, one that enables you to make a positive contribution in your public life while supporting your foundations.

SEXTILE THE SOUTH NODE Orb 17°05' Applying

Your destiny lies close to home. Or in other words if you follow your heart then you are likely to be following your destiny. Some have to go out and seek their own destiny. You may find that fate comes knocking on your door.

Speaking of accidental dignities and debilities, if you want to get all traditional about it, the 12th house is about the worst one for planetary placements, except for the minor "joy" of Saturn in the 12th house.
It is not a "minor" joy but thanks for exaggerating.
Saturn, as you know, is the Great Malefic. The rationale for the joy was that the 12th house was so rotten anyway, that nasty old Saturn would do less damage there than in some other house where one might hope for some better accidental dignity..
That is not the rationale but thanks for making it up.
The list of essential dignities and debilities attributed to Ptolemy....
I don't care what Ptolemy says. Why don't you go study one of the charts he did. Oh, wait, Ptolemy never actually read charts.


Well-known member
And then what is the basis for those degrees? They were probably based on Babylonian fixed star records.

No, they weren't. The Babylonians chose the signs with great inconsistencies.

Leo Sun makes a right trine to Aries so that is the exaltation. Aquarius Saturn makes a right trine to Libra so that is his exaltation.

Jupiter makes a right trine to Leo so that is his exaltation. Oh, wait, nope. We move Jupiter to Pisces so the right trine is Scorpio and that is Jupiter's exaltation. Oh, wait, nope. Instead they take the left trine to Cancer.

The nocturnal stars are sextiles. Moon makes the right sextile to Taurus, Venus makes the right sextile to Pisces, and Mars makes the right sextile to Aquarius. Oh, wait, nope. Instead they move Mars to his night house Scorpio and take the right sextile to Virgo, Oh, wait, nope, they take the left sextile to Capricorn.

I think the exact degree might give a planet particular strength, but then allowing for precession since Hellenistic times, it's hard to make a case for excluding the rest of the entire sign today.

Nope. There were no stars there.

Doesn't matter if you're looking at

1) The Late Assyrian Period (circa 900-600 BCE)
2) The Neo-Babylonian (Chaldean) Period (626-539 BCE)
3) The Persian (Achaemenid) Period (539-331 BCE)
4) Macedonian Period (331-circa 275 BCE)
5) Seleucid (Hellenistic) Period (275 BCE – 116 CE)

Aries is "MUL.HUN.GA" or "MUL.LU.HUN.GA" (the Hired Man) and that is how you write it. The Aramaic name was Agru.

If you look at VAT 4956 they list the zodiac as:

LU.HUN.GA =Aries
MUL = Taurus
MASH = Gemini
NANGAR = Cancer
UR.A = Leo
AB.SIN = Virgo
zi.ba-ni-tu = Libra
GIR.TAB = Scorpio
PA = Sagittaurius
SUHUR = Capricornus
GU = Aquarius
zib = Pisces

These are the only stars the Babylonians recognized:

(1) MUL KUR sa DUR nu-nu The bright star of the Ribbon of the Fishes. h Piscium
(2) MUL IGI sa SAG HUN The bright star at the head of the Hired Man. b Arietis
(3) MUL ar sa SAG HUN The rear star of the head of the Hired Man. a Arietis
(4) MUL-MUL The Bristle. h Tauri
(5) is le10 The Jaw of the Bull. a Tauri
(6) SUR GIGIR sa SI The northern …. of the Chariot. b Tauri
(7) SUR GIGIR sa ULU The southern …. of the Chariot. z Tauri
(8) MUL IGI sa se-pit MAS-MAS The front star of the Twins’ feet. h Geminorum
(9) MUL ar sa se-pit MAS-MAS The rear star of the Twins’ feet. m Geminorum
(10) MAS-MAS sa SIPA The Twins’ star near the Shepherd. g Geminorum
(11) MAS-MAS IGI The front Twin star. a Geminorum
(12) MAS-MAS ar The rear Twin star. b Geminorum
(13) MUL IGI sa ALLA sa SI The front star of the Crab to the north. h Cancri
(14) MUL IGI sa ALLA sa ULU The front star of the Crab to the south. q Cancri
(15) MUL ar sa ALLA sa SI The rear star of the Crab to the north. g Cancri
(16) MUL ar sa ALLA sa ULU The rear star of the Crab to the south. d Cancri
(17) SAG A The Head of the Lion. e Leonis
(18) LUGAL The King. a Leonis
(19) MUL TUR sa 4 KUS ar LUGAL The small star which is 4 cubits behind the King. r Leonis
(20) GIS KUN A The Rump of the Lion. Leonis
(21) GIR ar sa A The rear foot of the Lion. b Virginis
(22) DELE sa IGI ABSIN The Single star in front of the Furrow. g Virginis
(23) SA4 sa ABSIN The bright star of the Furrow. a Virginis
(24) RIN sa ULU The southern part of the Scales. a Librae
(25) RIN sa SI The northern part of the Scales. b Librae
(26) MUL MURUB4 sa SAG GIR-TAB The middle star of the Head of the Scorpion. d Scorpii
(27) MUL e sa SAG GIR-TAB The upper star of the Head of the Scorpion. b Scorpii
(28) SI4 (the god) Lisi a Scorpii
(29) MUL KUR sa KIR4 sil PA The bright star on the tip of Pabilsag’s arrow. q Ophiuchi
(30) SI MAS The Horn of the Goat-fish. b Capricorni
(31) MUL IGI sa SUHUR MAS The front star of the Goat-fish. g Capricorni
(32) MUL ar sa SUHUR MAS The rear star of the Goat-fish. d Capricorni

Neither Arietis A nor Arietis B were at Aries 19°.

In fact, there aren't any stars that match up to any of the exaltation points by degree.

If you go back to the Chaldean period the list stars by planet so the stars of Venus, the stars of Jupiter and such and there are no stars in Aries associated with Mars or or the Sun.

The only star associated with Sun is MUL.DINGIR.GUB.BA.MES which is the Standing Gods (Sin the Moon the God and Shamash the Sun God).

MUL.LU.GAL was also Sarru and that was Regulus. Sebbetti was "The 7" which is the Pleiades. And then there was MUL.NE.BI.RU.

I already looked at that a couple of years ago. They only recognized the 3 stars in Capricorn and none would have been at Capricorn 28°.

I don't suppose you're familiar with Lilly's Christian Astrology.

Why would I want to be? The only thing Lily did was mess up things that others had already messed up.

Combustion is an interesting concept. In modern astrology a conjunction has a very different meaning than in traditional western astrology. Modernly a planet conjunct the sun shows what you identify with, as the sun rules your identity. Traditionally, when the sun's rays obscured a near planet, it was seen to be weakened (excepting cazimi planets.)
That's an Arab/Persian thing.

Maybe you can explain how a star under Sun's beams when in the 7th place and setting and becomes visible because Sun has already set and is important somehow morphs into Cazimi for all stars everywhere and anywhere in the chart.

Maybe you've got a good intellectual reason for all of your irritable astrological name-calling. Personally I'd prefer a reasoned debate.
Except you're not reasonable. You have extreme biases and prejudices thanks to government condition and can't objectively view things.
You clearly have your own unique version of traditional astrology, but you don't make a case for it by calling common practice "moronic."
Medieval/Arabic/Persian is no "common practice" it's Medieval/Arabic/Persian.

Meanwhile, it is so refreshing to learn that you consider yourself to be such a great expert in astrology that you are exempt from any actual study that would refute what you wish to believe about Czar Vladimir.

I got modern and traditional astrology backing me. What do you got?


Well-known member
With chart-ruler Pluto trining Mars and conjunct the M.C. in Putin's natal chart, this latest Russian offensive correlates to tr.Pluto stationing direct on Oct.10.

We're all glad you predicted that. Unfortunately, that doesn't support you interpretation.

Putin is CAUSING this war in Ukraine, for no justifiable reason. That makes him a villain.

No reason you're aware of. The chart for the conflict doesn't support your view.

Even worse, your views on Pluto are all wrong because they're based on a lie that misled you and others.


Well-known member
No reason you're aware of.
I'm sure Putin had a lot of valid reasons for his war of aggression. Like restoring the Russian Empire.
He always reminded me of Catherine the Great, anyway.
I'm sure he's a little bummed as the South Node goes over his Mercury in the 12th house, but hey, Sun transit Venus, right?

david starling

Well-known member
We're all glad you predicted that. Unfortunately, that doesn't support you interpretation.

No reason you're aware of. The chart for the conflict doesn't support your view.

Even worse, your views on Pluto are all wrong because they're based on a lie that misled you and others.

What's the lie about Pluto in your opinion, if you don't mind saying?


Well-known member
I'm sure Putin had a lot of valid reasons for his war of aggression. Like restoring the Russian Empire.

I'm confused. Are you saying you're the CIA Director or are you saying you're the Russian Defense Minister? Perhaps you wish to post your chart indicating high rank and preeminence.

If you look at the conflict chart there is no hint of territorial expansion.
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Well-known member
What's the lie about Pluto in your opinion, if you don't mind saying?

The Big Lie is Pluto entered Cancer in 1914 and caused WW I and then this fantastical myth was concocted around Pluto in support of the Big Lie. The truth is far different.

The truth is Pluto entered Cancer in 1912, not 1914. And if you review prior Pluto Cancer ingresses you got nothing.

The prior ingress in 1668 there's nothing but peace. Two wars that ended 1667 had their treaties signed in 1668 and a war that ended in 1666 had its treaty signed in 1667 and it went into effect in 1668.

The 1424 ingress there's nothing but a minor conflict between England and France that was already in progress for several years and two minor insignificant battles and nothing more. There's nothing going in any any of the prior Pluto Cancer ingresses either.

Traditionals already knew that since Cancer is neither a human sign nor a violent sign and without the confluence of human and violent signs you cannot have war or conflict or violence.

Maybe you haven't noticed but many prominent modern astrologers have gone back to traditional sign rulerships and the outers no longer rule any signs and they no longer talk about them as personal planets.

david starling

Well-known member
Neptune ingressed Leo, 2014. The assassination of a member of royalty - leo - triggered WWI. Pluto in :cancer: provided emotional intensity for its entire transit, generally speaking, but wasn't specifically warlike. The "Roaring Twenties" were also a combination of Nep in :leo: and Pluto in :cancer:.
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