Putin: White hat or villain?

[david starling]

"War is hell." - {William T. Sherman}

Putin is CAUSING this war in Ukraine, for no justifiable reason. That makes him a villain.

The charts can show us potential choices, but not what course of action will be chosen. Mars in Sagittarius trine Pluto in Leo, with Pluto as ruler of the Asc. sign-placement in Scorpio, and of the Venus sign-placement in Scorpio, with Venus as ruler of the Sun, Mercury, Saturn and Neptune sign-placements in Libra, present Putin with the temptation to create hell on Earth, which his moral weakness made it impossible for him to resist. But moral weakness is NOT an astrological determinate.

Others faced with the same potential choices as seen in their charts, but who are of stronger moral fiber, would be able to choose differently, even heroically.

Paraphrasing Socrates*, in regard to Putin's choice to wage an unnecessary, unjustifiable war, "A villain who considers himself a hero, is more villainous than the villain who knows he's a villain." THAT'S what makes Putin so dangerous.


[*"A fool who knows he's a fool is wiser than a fool who considers himself wise." - {Socrates}]

 

[DC80]

But where does the libra stellium come into the picture of a brutal personality?

In traditional astrology Saturn would be the one to watch. It joys in the 12th house and sextiles Putin's MC and Mars. Saturn exalted in Libra looks to be Putin's strongest planet (almuten) but it is combust the sun.

Then we've got normally jovial Jupiter retrograde in the 7th house. Jupiter is angular and in its own terms so it's not helpless, but it is ruled by a problematic Venus. I think Putin's 7th house is more of the "house of open enemies" than the house of committed relationships. (He's divorced, with rumors of love affairs.)

Venus is in detriment. With Venus in the first house in Scorpio, Putin probably has considerable personal magnetism, but Venus has no other essential dignity, so Putin's ability to form relationships is damaged.

The sun in its fall in the 12th house is a weak sun, and maybe a deceptive one; but 12th house politicians tend to overcome this by identifying (sun) with a cause bigger than themselves.

Mercury is in its own terms, but it is not well-placed in the 12th house of deception.

The moon is the unaspected undignified "wild child." It's in airy Gemini in the 8th house of death, so he probably views death in a more abstract mental way. In fact, Putin's entire chart is dominated by air. Flesh and blood people may not be as real to him as his ideology.

A few things.

First, there's no such thing as detriment. That's a misinterpretation by Arabic and Persian astrologers, and specifically it was Sahl who didn't understand and then either Masha-allah or Abumashar compounded the error. Venus suffers no harm being in Scorpio but she does affect outcomes of the place she rules which is the Taurus 7th place and it is her being in opposition to a planet in her sign and not being in Scorpio that cause problems. I'll give credit where credit is due and the Persians finally came to their senses and flat out rejected the whole idea of detriment, perhaps because in Vedic there's no such thing as detriment. If you want, we can discuss how detrimental detriment was to Arnold. The correct reading of his chart is not detriment it's he's gonna leave his homeland and live in a foreign place, which he did. And he was a huge success. He was so detrimented he became governor of California and incredibly wealthy.

Second, if we were to adopt the detriment silliness then Venus is in detriment Taurus. Why? Because she is the master of the water trigon by day and she would be in opposition to Scorpio. Because this is a diurnal chart, Venus is strengthened by being in the sign of her triplicity as the ruler of that triplicity.

Third, there's no such thing as fall not to mention you're all doing it wrong. Sun is not exalted in Aries but he is exalted at Aries 19° which just happens to be in Aries. But none of that matters. What is the exaltation of Sun's exaltation? If you don't know, then you shouldn't even be thinking about exaltation.

Fourth, the answer to that question is Capricorn 19°. Cancer 19° is the fall of Sun's fall. Those points, meaning the exaltations and falls of the stars, are used in length of life calculations. A star rules certain times in a person's life and during those times there are critical times/periods when someone could die, or be seriously injured and I don't mean a bloody nose, or be seriously ill and I don't mean arthritis. The distances between a stars exaltations and exaltations of exaltations and falls and falls of falls are used to calculate the vital sector. If a star, and that could be Venus or Jupiter, casts its rays at the vital sector you die, unless the rays of another star intervene. It's a wee bit more complicated than that but I hope you get the gist of it.

Fifth, there's no such thing as combustion. That's more idiotic Arab/Persian nonsense compounded by moronic Medieval astrologers. The first person to even hint at it was Rhetorius but everyone ignores what he says and what he actually says is to determine if a star is under Sun's beams you have to calculate the phases. I get the impression none of you are calculating the phases and I'm pretty sure I'm right about that. In horary, and I plead ignorance other than understanding horary is not natal and horary techniques differ from natal, it could be that combustion is a valid technique. But, this is a natal chart and combustion means nothing.

Sixth, there is no Saturn in this chart just as there is no Sun and no Mercury. They are together and function as one unit. Call it "Team Sun" if you want. Shifty people are trying to interpret Saturn as though it were alone which is wrong.

Seventh, the Sun in this chart is glorious. It is the sect ruler and 100% in sect. It is in the trigon and face of Saturn and term of Mercury and it is in the rising quadrant. If Sun were alone, he ain't, but if he was and some people are pretending he is, then being in the 12th place would diminish his power but he's not alone even though people keep acting like he's all by his lonesome. Sun is somewhat benefic in this chart.

Eight, Saturn is glorious. He's rising, although it would be better if he were ahead of Sun, he's in the trigon he rules by day, and he is also 100% in sect. He's in his own trigon and face and the term of Jupiter and he likes being in the 12th place. Saturn is a malefic but does not function as a malefic in this chart. When a benefic is on an angle, it mitigates any damage a malefic 12th place Saturn might cause and we have not one, but two benefics on the angles, Venus in the 1st and Jupiter in the 7th.

Ninth, Mercury is not glorious. Mercury is totally out-of-sect but he is in an air sign and in the term of Venus and face of Jupiter.

Tenth, Mercury and Sun are good together, Saturn and Mercury are good together, but Sun and Saturn are not good together. Mercury is completely out of sect and the wildcard here. This is a person with many friends who is adaptable and will spend their career in a high public office who is intelligent and has resources but who will suffer slanders and harbor animosity and be resentful of the plots against him. Normally, Mercury with Saturn makes good public speakers (see Johnny Carson as an example) but with Mercury out of sect he would be uncomfortable.

Eleventh, signs of high rank other than Team Sun is Venus is the ruler of Team Sun and she is in the 1st place and in the trigon she rules. Jupiter is ahead of Sun and above the horizon. We would like to see both spear-bearers ahead of Sun, but we'll take Jupiter who is angular in the 7th place. We have Fortune in the 8th place trine Team Sun and we also have Spirit in 5th place Pisces trine Venus.

Twelfth, Moon is totally out of sect here so the idea that he is emotionally detached doesn't cut it. Moon is with Fortune, waning, separating from benefic Jupiter and applying to Sun. Traditional astrology says that's a person of humble birth who achieves fame, wealth, and a high position later in life. We know Moon is not running through a vacuum, because such persons are inferior to their parents in terms of living standard, income, position, etc, and they amount to nothing.

Thirteenth, we know Moon is not void-of-course because the definition is Moon makes no aspects whatsoever before leaving a sign. Apparently it's okay to change the definition to meet bigoted prejudicial preconceived beliefs.

Finally, something of note. The place of accomplishment is the 11th place from Fortune which is the 6th place in this chart ruled by Sagittarius Mars in the 7th place from Fortune.

 

[waybread]

No pass, DC80. Blowing smoke doesn't make your case.

The concept of detriment has been around in traditional astrology for centuries, as the opposite of domicile. It is found in Ptolemy (ca. 150 CE,) although that may either be older (as Ptolemy was basically a textbook author) or it may be a later medieval gloss on his Tetrabiblos. Two foremost astrologers of Hellenistic astrology, Benjamin Dykes and Chris Brennan, date the concept of detriment minimally to late Antiquity, with Rhetorius the Egyptian, where detriment appears in a well-developed form. But conclude that it is much older.

The Origins of the Concept of Detriment in Astrology

Chris Brennan and Ben Dykes discuss the origins of the concept of detriment in ancient Hellenistic and Medieval astrology.

theastrologypodcast.com

I've got a copy of Rhetorius. Do you?

Modern astrology doesn't deal with essential debilities like detriment and fall, but you could hardly do traditional astrology today without it. As you would know if you actually practiced it.

Sect is used in traditional astrology, but it is an "accidental" dignity or debility, and not one of the major one, such as angularity or support from a benefic.

Trigons can confer an essential dignity, but they are hardly up there with domicile and exaltation. I don't know if you look at reception (mutual or simple.)

The moon has no essential dignity in Gemini. Trying to turn Czar Vladimir into some warm, caring individual is not supported by his chart.

Speaking of accidental dignities and debilities, if you want to get all traditional about it, the 12th house is about the worst one for planetary placements, except for the minor "joy" of Saturn in the 12th house. Saturn, as you know, is the Great Malefic. The rationale for the joy was that the 12th house was so rotten anyway, that nasty old Saturn would do less damage there than in some other house where one might hope for some better accidental dignity..

Again, you seem to err in believing that there is only one kind of "correct"astrology of a given historical period, be it modern or traditional. Preferably whichever type seems to validate Vladimir Putin as the savior of eastern Europe from the American anti-Christ..

But claiming some kind of consistent unified traditional astrology simply isn't true. There was just as much variety in Hellenistic, medieval, and early modern (Renaissance) astrology as there is in modern astrology today. You would know this if you read the historic sources themselves.

But some things you will find across the traditionalist board, like Venus domiciled in Taurus. As you would know, this is because of the following Hellenistic calculus, that begins with the summer solstice and heat of the summer, and ends with the winter solstice: We read the first row bottom-up and the second row top-down

moon=Cancer.............sun=Leo
Mercury=Gemini........Virgo
Venus=Taurus............Libra
Mars=Aries................Scorpio
Jupiter=Pisces...........Sagittarius
Saturn=Aquarius.....,Capricorn (winter solstice)

The list of essential dignities and debilities attributed to Ptolemy does mention degrees, but for centuries, astrologers have based them on entire signs. You would know this if you actually participated in traditional astrology discussions on-line today. And then what is the basis for those degrees? They were probably based on Babylonian fixed star records. I think the exact degree might give a planet particular strength, but then allowing for precession since Hellenistic times, it's hard to make a case for excluding the rest of the entire sign today.

I don't suppose you're familiar with Lilly's Christian Astrology. It is a horary textbook that also summarizes the general astrological knowledge of the 17th century. It's a good summation of a lot of older astrological lore.

Combustion is an interesting concept. In modern astrology a conjunction has a very different meaning than in traditional western astrology. Modernly a planet conjunct the sun shows what you identify with, as the sun rules your identity. Traditionally, when the sun's rays obscured a near planet, it was seen to be weakened (excepting cazimi planets.)

Maybe you've got a good intellectual reason for all of your irritable astrological name-calling. Personally I'd prefer a reasoned debate.

You clearly have your own unique version of traditional astrology, but you don't make a case for it by calling common practice "moronic."

Meanwhile, it is so refreshing to learn that you consider yourself to be such a great expert in astrology that you are exempt from any actual study that would refute what you wish to believe about Czar Vladimir.

 

[waybread]

Oh, and BTW : "what-aboutism" or "two wrongs make a right" are not compelling excuses for Vladimir Putin's atrocities in Ukraine.

("What-aboutism" is a kind of deflection from a main argument. It's a kind of red herring debate fallacy. It seeks to distract attention from the main argument or point by bringing up a different sort of example. For instance, let's not criticize Vladimir Putin, the topic of this thread, when we could ask, "What about Jimmy Carter?")

I suspect anyone with Pluto conjunct his MC trine Mars conjunct the Galactic Center in a "talent triangle" with Saturn would see himself as having a special destiny. Putin has a fair number of quintiles in his chart, suggesting talent and the ambition to manifest it.

But this doesn't mean that he will use his special abilities for good.

Right now Putin's progressed sun and moon are within orb of his natal Mars-GC. I suspect his feeling of having a special destiny and power is only growing stronger right now. He's not going to sit down for silly peace talks if he thinks he can outlast his adversaries and get everything he wants.

Incidentally, asteroid Lucifer conjuncts Putin's natal Saturn within the degree.

 

[waybread]

Oh, great, David.

The Taiwanese think they're an independent nation. China disagrees. Because China is so much more powerful militarily and so inter-connected in the global economy, guess who gets told they're not a real nation? India has a couple of independence movements on its hands right now like Khalistan, so they are disinclined to criticize Russia for claiming control over places like Ukraine, Chechnya, and Kalingrad.

Come to think of it, the British once told a bunch of North American colonies that they weren't sovereign, either.

Putin's Gemini moon makes no major aspects. I think this has a lot to do with his inability to empathize with other people's aspirations. Its nearest minor aspects are a semi-square with Uranus and and sesqui-square with Saturn: not exactly sympathetic placements for feeling the pain he inflicts on millions of people.

I just read an article in the WP on an interview with the Moldovan foreign minister. Moldova shares a border with Ukraine, and there are no 1500 Russian troops stationed in the "breakaway" region of Transnitsia. Russia has bombarded Moldova with disinformation campaigns, cyber attacks, actors pretending to be Moldovan demonstrators, and funding for political candidates.

As the Moldovan foreign minister said, "What happens in Ukraine does not stay in Ukraine." And the closer a country's geographical proximity to Ukraine and Russia, the more serious Russian interference has become.

Maybe it's time for Putin apologists to take a look at their own beliefs about whether they truly support free and fair democracies.

 

[DC80]

DC80, it would be a massive digression and hijack of this thread to refute your simplistic hard-right misinterpretations of history. So I won't. Save Jimmy Carter for his own thread.

I'll spare you further embarrassment and let everyone else know how uninformed you are.

On October 19, 1973, immediately following President Nixon's request for Congress to make available $2.2 billion in emergency aid to Israel for the conflict known as the Yom Kippur War, the Organization of Arab Petroleum Exporting Countries (OAPEC) instituted an oil embargo on the United States (Reich 1995).

President Nixon signs national speed limit into law​

As part of his response to the embargo, President Nixon signed a federal law lowering all national highway speed limits to 55 mph. The act was intended to ...

It is obviously ridiculous to blame one US president for multiple decisions made by multiple Near Eastern leaders. The US president has power but he is scarcely the only independent variable in complex equations.

Regarding the Kurds.....here's a cable to Henry Kissinger:
"Your Excellency, having always believed in the peaceful solution of disputes including those between Iran and Iraq, we are please to see that their two countries have come to some agreement...however, our hearts bleed to see that an immediate byproduct of their agreement is the destruction of our defenseless people.... Our Movement and people are being destroyed in an unbelievable way with silence from everyone. We feel your Excellency that the United States has a moral and political responsibility towards our people who have committed themselves to your country's policy." [Note: Emphasis Mine]
One other thing about Jimmy Carter's "Libra super powers." He ordered Iraq to attack Iran and he sent US military advisors to Iraq. Carter also sold chemical munitions to Iraq. The US military advisors green-lighted the use of those chemical munitions on Iranians, and later they were used against the Kurds, a people whom Carter considered "expendable" in order to achieve US foreign policy goals.

Also, Carter used his "Libra super powers" to create the hostage crisis in Iraq. When you use a diplomatic mission to plan the overthrow of a government like Carter did, the Vienna Conventions no longer apply. Read it.

My modern astrology favorite was Robert Hand and his common sense approach, followed by the early (not evolutionary) books of Steven Forrest. Hand's work on aspects and Forrest's dynamic approach were essential.

Robert Hand said he was wrong. At least he had the moral courage and intellectual honesty to admit he was wrong.

If you read what Robert Hand said, then:

First, Planets in Transit is actually Planets in Natal. Hand said he gleaned natal chart delineations from texts over the previous 1,900 years as the basis for his transit interpretations and he erroneously assumed, for example, that Venus opposite Mars in a natal chart has the same meaning as transiting Venus opposite Mars.

Second, Hand wrote Planets in Transits around 1976. That was before he started working with Robert Schmidt 20 years later and one of the reasons he did is both he and Schmidt realized that many of the texts were badly translated and badly misinterpreted, especially by Arabic, Persian, and Medieval astrologers.

Third, Hand had suspected for a very long time what other astrologers had suspected and that is something is very wrong. Major transits that should have produced something didn't produce anything and when transits should have produced something good, they actually produced something bad. What Hand actually said is, "When we examined the ancient delineation of transits we found that sometimes the transit of A to B can be benefic while that of B to A can be malefic." That's because everyone is doing transits wrong.

Finally, as Hand noted, a transiting planet means nothing unless it is the time ruler, co-ruler, or it came to the Asc in a profected chart.

One crystal-clear observation is that there is no single unified modern astrology. It has different branches: theosophical, psychological, evolutionary, pop-schlock, Rosicrucian, and Magi, to name a few. They do not all agree, certainly not on the conflation of signs and houses.

That's your problem. We don't have that problem in traditional, but then we don't pretend to be psychologists and hand out a load of psycho-babble that doesn't even rise to the level of cheap pop psychology.

So your citing this or that source gives you some evidence, but it is not conclusive.

Fine, here is another source, specifically some interpretations from Kepler that refute claims you made:

Saturn Conjunct Sun/Neptune 0 deg 05 min​

You have a great love for people who sacrifice for a worthy cause, and you appreciate people who are not ostentatious, glamorous, or pretentious. You seek simple and deep truths. You succeed in areas that bring real assistance, hope, or solutions to difficult problems. If you are unable to find a satisfying set of spiritual or religious principles, you can become very depressed and downtrodden.

Neptune Conjunct Mercury/Saturn 0 deg 51 min​

You enjoy abstract thinking. Abstract principles are common in academic studies, whether it be the concept of a point or a line in mathematics, the Chinese philosophy of 5 elements, various psychological theories of theorists such as Freud, Jung, etc., or any number of other ideas. You are well-suited to academic studies.

Moon Opposition Venus/Mars 1 deg 12 min​

You are a very deeply loving, emotional person and you bond very closely to loved ones. Because your feelings run very deep, be very careful in selecting a marriage partner as it can be extraordinarily difficult for you to part ways once you have given your heart to someone. The extent to which you are happy in your romantic relationships and family relationships probably is the main determinant of your overall happiness.

As everyone can plainly see, your interpretations are just plain wrong and you cannot justify it astrologically.

You need to cite your source/s. You put material in direct quotes. But without citing your source, it is plagiarism.

Plagiarism is when you pass someone else's work off as your own work. I clearly stated I was quoting another and I was quoting Marion March and Joan McEvers, but I'm sure you'll claim they're nobodies even though they have published books and you never will.

I have looked at Vladimir Putin's chart a lot.

One should not look at charts when their mind is filled with vitriolic hatred, bigotry. prejudice, and racism.

Perhaps, like me, you have tried to rectify it using significant dates in his career.

No. Why would I want to? The time is close enough. It might even be 9:30 am.

Put I fear you drank the Kool-Aid.

https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-the-Ukraine-Crisis-Is.pdf

That's a link you won't read.

For Putin, the illegal overthrow of Ukraine’s democratically elected and pro-Russian president—which he rightly labeled a “coup”—was the )nal straw. He responded by taking Crimea, a peninsula he feared would host a NATO naval base, and working to destabilize Ukraine until it abandoned its efforts to join the West.
Something else you won't read is a transcript of an intercepted communication between a US State Department official and the US Ambassador to Ukraine relevant to this that was published on the BBC....

The spark came in November 2013, when Yanukovych rejected a major economic deal he had been negotiating with the EU and decided to accept a $15 billion Russian counteroffer instead.

Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call

A transcript of the alleged conversation between Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and the US ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt discussing the crisis in Ukraine.

www.bbc.com

An intriguing insight into the foreign policy process with work going on at a number of levels: Various [US] officials attempting to marshal the Ukrainian opposition; efforts to get the UN to play an active role in bolstering a deal; and (as you can see below) the big guns waiting in the wings - US Vice-President Joe Biden clearly being lined up to give private words of encouragement at the appropriate moment.
That's why the Obama Administration overthrew the Ukrainian government.

 

[DC80]

I have prepared a new round of refutations.

So your citing this or that source gives you some evidence, but it is not conclusive.

If you don't like the definitions from Kepler, then here are the interpretations from Solarfire:

ASPECTS OF THE MOON

TRINE THE SUN Orb 11°01' Applying

Your basic nature is easy-going. You find that your emotions contribute positively to your life. You have a tendency to sit back and let things slip past rather than being assertive as you are not personally ambitious.

TRINE SATURN Orb 14°33' Applying

You have an inner self-confidence which helps you build firm foundations in your life and achieve your ambitions. You work solidly to build yourself a secure and firm footing, earning the respect of those around you.

OPPOSITION MARS Orb 23°37' Applying

Your struggle to express yourself assertively usually ends in conflict. Arguments and emotional disputes abound in your life. You may find that your loved ones are often angry. Letting off steam in sports or activities that demand high concentration will help you achieve a balance.

TRINE MERCURY Orb 20°16' Applying

You are able to communicate your thoughts and feelings with ease. You may be a charming person, at times manipulative. You have a talent for making decisions based on both your heart and mind.

SEXTILE THE MIDHEAVEN Orb 18°18' Separating

Intuitively you know where you are heading in your life. This may be as a result of the loving and guiding hand of your mother, or a member of your mother's family. You are able to choose a career that suits you, one that enables you to make a positive contribution in your public life while supporting your foundations.

That is now 3 respected sources that totally reject your very bad reading of Putin's chart.

Were I to go back and re-read some of Hand's and Forrest's earlier material, I could readily come up with sources that talk about Mars in Sagittarius differently.

Let's see what Solarfire says about Mars.

MARS

MARS IN SAGITTARIUS

You are an inspirational leader, and have a strong desire for exploration and adventure. You may be one-pointed in your desires.

MARS IN THE 2ND HOUSE

You have an aggressive approach to making money. You equate strength and power with money and possessions. You will develop a strong set of values.

27TH DEGREE OF SAGITTARIUS

Sabian Symbol: The sculptor's vision is taking form.

RAYS RELATING TO MARS

Ray of Mars is the 6th

Devotion and idealism

Rays of Mars's Sign (Sagittarius)

6th Ray

Devotion and idealism

5th Ray

Concrete knowledge and science

4th Ray

Harmony through conflict

Ray of Modern Dispositor (Jupiter) is the 2nd

Love and wisdom

HOUSE RULED BY MARS

RULES 6TH HOUSE (Modern)

The Sixth House is about day to day life. It is about work, health, the service you give and your habits. It also relates to small animals. Other exoteric and esoteric keywords include: health, daily routine, working environment, skills, pets and animals, service

MODERN DISPOSITOR: JUPITER

DISPOSITOR'S HOUSE: 7TH HOUSE

The Seventh House is about partnerships. This can be partnerships in business, marriage or a committed relationship. Other exoteric and esoteric keywords include: business partnerships, marriage, long-term associations, open enemies, the animus, the relationship between soul and personality.

DISPOSITOR'S SIGN: TAURUS

Stable and enduring, strong values, unyielding, earthy, acquisitive, strong desires. Can be stuck, stubborn, overly possessive, self-indulgent.

ASPECTS OF MARS

SEXTILE SATURN Orb 9°04' Separating

You have opportunities to express your energy in a self disciplined way. Self control is one of your talents.

Again, you cannot possibly justify your claims astrologically.

Hating the United States as you do does not somehow turn Vladimir Putin into a savior.

I never said I hated the US. I said the US lies. That's what they do.

He meets the personal criteria for sociopath.

Not according to the APA and since you're neither a board-certified psychologist or psychiatrist, and not even educated in psychology, not to mention you have not administered the proper tests and conducted the necessary evaluations, an intellectually honest person would refrain from discussing something they know nothing about.

Under his rulership, you would have no freedom of expression.

I'm college educated. That's what I did when I got out of the Army so I didn't die making people rich. You're obviously not.

When a country is under attack by the US, they will often infringe on civil liberties, but that is to protect their country from the US.

Americans complain that Russia interfered with their election. Turn about is fair play. After all, the US interfered in Russian elections, specifically Obama, and that is specifically why Russia expelled USAID.

When a country is under attack by the US, it will also often nationalize its industries. This is because to allow US companies in your country or allow investors to have controlling or other interests in your country's enterprises gives the US the "justification" for intervening militarily under the guise of "protecting" US interests.

Putin's unprovoked war has caused millions of refugees and tens of thousands of deaths-- just in case you want to play by the same rules you apply to President Carter.

The war was not unprovoked. It was provoked by the US and Britain to advance their agendas.

Since you don't have a political science and history degree like I do, so you don't know who Command McCollum is and you never read his now declassified October 1940 memorandum to FDR.

McCollum was a US Navy commander and listed 8 specific things that FDR needs to do to provoke Japan to become more hostile and attack the US in order to get the public would be behind a war effort.

FDR did all 8 of those things to provoke Japan into attacking the US and Japan ultimately attacked.

Item #1 on the list was moving the Pacific Fleet from San Diego to the territory of Hawai'i.

Since you didn't read the now-declassified documents, you don't know the Pacific Fleet Commander, Admiral James Richardson vehemently protested in a letter to FDR stating that it was an unwarranted risk that put the Fleet in danger and that it would provoke Japan into attacking.

For his efforts, FDR relieved him of duty and replaced him with a Yes-Man who wouldn't question FDR.

Admiral Richardson was right.

That's what the US does. It provokes through all manner and means and soon you will learn that the US provoked the Korean War.

[deleted attacking comment - Moderator]

 

[Nexus7]

Nexus, we need something astrological to explain the really noticeable, long-term, long-lasting changes in human cultural beliefs and technologies. That's where the astrological Ages concept comes into it.

Where would Putin be without his ability to threaten nuclear war, for example?
And, why ARE we now such a Globalistic world culture, with telescopes, extremely accurate clocks, time zones, electricity and explosives not used in past Ages within the historical records?

 

[Nexus7]

Nexus, we need something astrological to explain the really noticeable, long-term, long-lasting changes in human cultural beliefs and technologies. That's where the astrological Ages concept comes into it.

Where would Putin be without his ability to threaten nuclear war, for example?
And, why ARE we now such a Globalistic world culture, with telescopes, extremely accurate clocks, time zones, electricity and explosives not used in past Ages within the historical records?

Arguably our present dangerous situation was as already in the cards once more war-like tribes got their hands on the secrets on how to smelt more robust metals.

The thing is, for many thousands of millennia it seems that paleolithic societies changed very little, and it has only been for the last six millennia or so that things evolved ftom neolithic to bronze age and iron age and beyond, in fact until the first steam engine came into being.

Not saying there isn't anything to the precession of the equinoxes, but maybe there needs to be more to explain the current acceleration of technology.

Erisakes a full orbit over a period of half a milennia. There way be planetary bodies recently discovered that also have very long orbit, marking longer cycles than that of, Neptune and Pluto...

 

[david starling]

Arguably our present dangerous situation was as already in the cards once more war-like tribes got their hands on the secrets on how to smelt more robust metals.

The thing is, for many thousands of millennia it seems that paleolithic societies changed very little, and it has only been for the last six millennia or so that things evolved ftom neolithic to bronze age and iron age and beyond, in fact until the first steam engine came into being.

Not saying there isn't anything to the precession of the equinoxes, but maybe there needs to be more to explain the current acceleration of technology.

Erisakes a full orbit over a period of half a milennia. There way be planetary bodies recently discovered that also have very long orbit, marking longer cycles than that of, Neptune and Pluto...

I've been using tropical Ages, rather than sidereal Ages, to explain the dangerous advancement of technology. I believe it works quite convincingly.

Sidereal Ages are unique to a sidereal zodiac only, and are tracked using precession of the equinox. I don't consider an Age of Pisces to be about technological development.

The use of gunpowder in war was a major qualitative change from simply making better swords with harder metals, and began in the late 13th Century, the halfway point of this current tropical Age. More and more accurate mechanical clocks, telescopes, the Industrial Revolution, followed by alternating current, radio, telephones, television, automobiles, etc., were all a lead-up to what's happening now.

Tropical Ages can be tracked in the tropical zodiac, using precession of the Earth's perihelion.

Tropically, it's the culminating period of the Cardinal-Earth (innovative and materialistic) sign Capricorn, in these last few degrees of the Age, with the BIG problem being the Age-sign ruler, Saturn.

It started with the beginning of the Fall of the Roman Empire in 406 A.D., and officially ends in 2149 with ingress into tropical Aquarius, a much more humanitarian Age.

Coincidentally (since tropical Ages are direct, and sidereal Ages are retrograde, and these two concurrent types of Ages are of different lengths), both have an Aquarian Age in the same timeframe.

 

[waybread]

Please do not imagine, DC80, that the West somehow provoked dear old Uncle Vladimir to launch his war against Ukraine. That is total nonsense.

Please do not refer back to the 60-year old Cuban Missile Crisis to try to make your point.

Long-range missiles today do not require geographical proximity to hit their targets. NATO wouldn't need Ukraine if it somehow wanted to fire missiles at Moscow.

The West, if anything, hoped to getter integrate Russia economically. Just ask Angela Merkel.

Oh, and did I mention diplomacy as an alternative to a unilateral armed invasion of a peaceful sovereign nation?

Astrologers once mentioned that Adolph Hitler's chart was unremarkable except for of a lot of quintiles-- which (speaking of Kepler) a lot of astrologers would not even interpret. I read quintiles as talent plus the ambition to manifest it:

A major one in Putin's chart is Pluto quintile ascendant: someone who goes after (quintile) personal (AS) power (Pluto) via his career and public image (Pluto conjunct MC.)

Putin also has sun quintile Mars (aggressive sense of self)

Sun quintile Jupiter in the 7th (in the house of "open enemies") some luck in attacking those perceived as enemies to oneself.

Mars quintile Jupiter in the 7th (aggression against enemies)

 

[david starling]

Please do not imagine, DC80, that the West somehow provoked dear old Uncle Vladimir to launch his war against Ukraine. That is total nonsense.

Please do not refer back to the 60-year old Cuban Missile Crisis to try to make your point.

Long-range missiles today do not require geographical proximity to hit their targets. NATO wouldn't need Ukraine if it somehow wanted to fire missiles at Moscow.

The West, if anything, hoped to getter integrate Russia economically. Just ask Angela Merkel.

Oh, and did I mention diplomacy as an alternative to a unilateral armed invasion of a peaceful sovereign nation?

Astrologers once mentioned that Adolph Hitler's chart was unremarkable except for of a lot of quintiles-- which (speaking of Kepler) a lot of astrologers would not even interpret. I read quintiles as talent plus the ambition to manifest it:

A major one in Putin's chart is Pluto quintile ascendant: someone who goes after (quintile) personal (AS) power (Pluto) via his career and public image (Pluto conjunct MC.)

Putin also has sun quintile Mars (aggressive sense of self)

Sun quintile Jupiter in the 7th (in the house of "open enemies") some luck in attacking those perceived as enemies to oneself.

Mars quintile Jupiter in the 7th (aggression against enemies)

This isn't a "malevolent" chart for Putin. For example, Mars in Sagittarius can inspire good works. Pluto in Leo can be a wise teacher.

Astrology proves people are individuals by how they choose to use the abilities their charts provide.

It's Putin, as an individual, who has chosen use the abilities provided by his chart to become a monster devoid of human decency.

 

[waybread]

Elena, am I mistaken, or are you quoting from another astrology source? If so, please cite it. I'm wondering why the delineations you posted say "you" vs. talking about the topic at hand, and why they include old celebrities.

It's one thing for an astrologer to write a delineation for ordinary people, and another thing to apply a delineation to a world leader whose actions on the world stage are well known. Your delineations could turn a mass murderer into a nice guy who was a bit of a perfectionist, and who who simply liked finding patterns.

Putin is a sociopath. I don't know how else to characterize someone who voluntarily sends thousands of Russian young men to be slaughtered (by their own account) and is firing drones and missiles at the Ukrainian "cousins" he hopes to repatriate into Mother Russia. This invasion was totally unnecessary, especially given Russia's vast experience in disinformation campaigns and false flag disruptions. These are a matter of fact, not conjecture.

I'm not "demonizing" the quintile, if you refer to me. I am saying that they can be a very powerful aspect, especially depending upon the involved planets and the person's place on the world stage.

I disagree with your sweetly nice characterization of quintiles where Pluto and more aggressive planets are concerned. Quintiles do point to talent, be it great or small, but they also point to an ambition to manifest it.

Pluto has a ruthless, domineering streak. It can be used for good or evil. The ascendant, sun, and moon are "me" points in the horoscope. The MC relates to career aspirations. Mars rules aggression. Put them together in some fashion and you get someone with a talent for putting himself forward, and the ambition to act on it.

Which is why, in political leaders, you can get dictators. Obviously not all dictators have Pluto, Mars, or Saturn quintiles. It might be a Mars-Pluto square. There isn't a "one size fits all." The following horoscopes are available on the Astro-DataBank at www.astro.com . You have to click on the small scale horoscope to get the large one showing quintiles in the aspectarian.

Nicolae Ceausescu, dictator of Romania. moon Q Pluto, Pluto Q MC. Pluto square Mars. mass murderer

Adoph Hitler: his chart had 9 quintiles involving planets and or angles only. Mass murderer. (Try applying those nice delineations to him.)

Joseph Goebbels: sun quintile Pluto, Mars Q MC

Hermann Goring: moon Q Mars, Venus Q Saturn, sun Q Uranus

Adolph Eichmann: moon Q Pluto

Josef Mengele: Mars Q Pluto

Napolean Bonaparte: Pluto Q Asc

So many of the Nazi leaders were motivated by quintiles. Their ambitions are well known.

Quintiles can also be a source for enormous good. One of the most quintile-rich charts I've seen is for Mozart. J. S. Bach had 3 quintiles involving planets, including to Pluto. Both composers were noted for their prodigious output of music. Michelangelo had Venus (rules the arts) quintile Pluto and Jupiter quintile Neptune.

Galileo had three planet or angle quintiles. The interesting one is Uranus Q MC. Uranus was the god of the starry heavens, and the midheaven seems appropriate for a career based on star-gazing, among other talents.

 

[DC80]

It's one thing for an astrologer to write a delineation for ordinary people, and another thing to apply a delineation to a world leader whose actions on the world stage are well known.

No, it is not different. I'm not surprised at another attempt to change the rules since you're so desperate you stooped to the level of attempting to redefine void of course Moon to justify your concocted interpretations which are not supported by traditional or modern interpretations.

Putin is a sociopath.

Again, your claim is not supported by traditional or modern astrology. It requires both Sun and

I don't know how else to characterize someone who voluntarily sends thousands of Russian young men to be slaughtered (by their own account) and is firing drones and missiles at the Ukrainian "cousins" he hopes to repatriate into Mother Russia.

Why isn't George Bush a sociopath? Iraq had no links to al-Qaeda like he claimed and no WMDs like he claimed. He lied. And he sent us there.

So, if someone lies and you like them they're not a sociopath but if you don't like them they are. That's fantastic.

This invasion was totally unnecessary, especially given Russia's vast experience in disinformation campaigns and false flag disruptions. These are a matter of fact, not conjecture.

I knew you'd be afraid to read the link I posted.

Seriously, you ain't read a history book since before I was born so we're not impressed with your views. You attributed to Carter things done by another president and then ignored all the evil Carter did but he's not a sociopath because you like him. I can see why Carter would be on the World Good Works Atonement Tour getting brownie points for the millions of lives he wasted so's Jesus doesn't cast him into hell.

Nicolae Ceausescu, dictator of Romania. moon Q Pluto, Pluto Q MC. Pluto square Mars. mass murderer

Adoph Hitler: his chart had 9 quintiles involving planets and or angles only. Mass murderer. (Try applying those nice delineations to him.)

Joseph Goebbels: sun quintile Pluto, Mars Q MC

Hermann Goring: moon Q Mars, Venus Q Saturn, sun Q Uranus

Adolph Eichmann: moon Q Pluto

Josef Mengele: Mars Q Pluto

Napolean Bonaparte: Pluto Q Asc

It is very deceitful to ignore the signs/places where those planets were.

 

[david starling]

So, because both John Wayne Gacy and Vladimir Putin have nice-looking "Good guy" charts according to some astrologers, there's no need to examine their actions to see if they might be villains in disguise?

Even though astrology is required on this thread, the question still stands - is Putin sitting high in the saddle or is he lower than a snake's belly?

He's expressing the very worst of his domineering Asc. ruler in Fixed-Fire conjunct his MC and trining Mars, imo. That makes him a villain.

Question asked, question answered.

 

[waybread]

Oh, c'mon, DC80. This is getting ridiculous.

Don't call me "deceitful" for not giving all of the sign details on the individuals I mentioned with prominent quintiles. I noted that their charts are available on the Astrodienst Astro-DataBank. Do your own homework. Just click on the small charts to get the aspectarians showing quintiles. You can do this.

The definition of sociopath is from current psychology. You can Google it. You can also look up its clinical diagnostic term, antisocial personality disorder. The biggest traits are a lack of empathy, and a lack of guilt or remorse in harming other people. These are followed by a disregard for normal standards of right and wrong, lying and being manipulative to gain control over others, believing in one's innate superiority to other people, and aggression. There's a long-ish list of traits, not all of which will apply to every sociopath, but Vladimir Putin certainly has enough of them to qualify.

The definition overlaps with psychopath. Possibly Putin's impulse control would better place him in this category. Take your choice.

Lying about what I wrote doesn't make your case.

But how fascinating to learn that you know exactly what I read!! My, oh my. Psychic, are you? So sorry you live too far away too browse our home library. My house is full of books. (Not surprising for someone with Sagittarius on my IC.)

And there you go again, with your "what-aboutism" (digressions, red herring debate fallacy.) You wanna talk about George Bush? Jimmy Carter? Please start your own threads about them.

And again. Just because you hate the United States doesn't mean that Putin is justified in invading Ukraine. He's a war criminal.

I have to stress (again) that when we look at a blind horoscope, we don't know whether the person operates at the level of the celestial, terrestrial, or bestial. Which is why many professional astrologers don't read blind horoscopes. In the case of a public figure, however, we have all kinds of biographical details. You can track major events in Putin's career against his natal chart plus transits to see how his chart plays out. I did this extensively for his initial invasion of Ukraine in 2014, incidentally.

 

[waybread]

Just a bit more on Putin's 7th house Jupiter retrograde and its quintiles. Jupiter is usually the good luck factor. It takes a liberal, expansive view of things. But the 7th house is also the house of one's "open enemies" (vs. 12th house secretive back-stabbers.) It just occurred to me that precisely what Putin hates about the West is its culture of permissiveness.

Putin's Pluto conjunct MC square Jupiter emphasizes the hard, ruthless edge (Pluto) to Putin's staking a lot of his career (MC) on stamping out "western decadence" (Jupiter) as he understands it.

The trouble is, Vladimir, you are all of the planets in your chart.

 

[Nexus7]

So, because both John Wayne Gacy and Vladimir Putin have nice-looking "Good guy" charts according to some astrologers, there's no need to examine their actions to see if they might be villains in disguise?

Even though astrology is required on this thread, the question still stands - is Putin sitting high in the saddle or is he lower than a snake's belly?

He's expressing the very worst of his domineering Asc. ruler in Fixed-Fire conjunct his MC and trining Mars, imo. That makes him a villain.

Question asked, question answered.

What's good guy about his chart? Pluto on the Midheaven, 12th House stellium with Sun, Neptune and Saturn.

 

[david starling]

What's good guy about his chart? Pluto on the Midheaven, 12th House stellium with Sun, Neptune and Saturn.

Opal made a comment about her chart being similar to this Putin chart. Said she hasn't killed anyone yet, though.

 

[Nexus7]

Opal made a comment about her chart being similar to this Putin chart. Said she hasn't killed anyone yet, though.

Good to know.

I think it says a lot about his deviousness and his need to hang onto power. I think he may have a Mercury opposition Eris too.