Putin: White hat or villain?

[DC80]

I recall writing then on my forum page "News and Astrology", of that Event with the chart, but don't know now which page it is on and cannot find the time to invest for it. I do however have a chart for that day, just not the background or context although it can still be found if someone wanted to look for it (February 24th):

Your chart is wrong. Putin went on television a few minutes before 5:00 AM and announced the action in Ukraine, and at 5:07 AM the first missiles/bombs landed in Kyiv (Kiev).

Putin INVADED a sovereign nation with NO PROVEN justification.

Where is the ruler of the 7th place?

In the 12th place.

I just proved you wrong astrologically. Russia did have good reason to take this action.

In the world of Ptolemy and Dorotheus and the Persians, Britain is Aries. The US would be Sagittarius (and one can't help but note Moon is in Sagittarius), and Ptolemy gave Aquarius to Ukraine and Capricorn to Russia.

In looking at this chart, it is very difficult to believe that Russia did not use astrologers. I mean, the Asc is conjunct Venus/Mars in Capricorn.

Also note Sun/Jupiter conjunct in the 3rd place. That reduces the effectiveness of the US with Jupiter being in a weak place.

Fortuna is angular and ruled by Venus and what is the 10th place from Fortuna? That would be the Asc and the Venus/Mars conjunction.

Have a happy astrological day.

 

[Cap]

Well, you can ignore that.

One Day in the life of the Brahmin is 4,320,000,000,000 years. One Night is of equal time. The Hindu texts state emphatically life can only exist in the Day of Brahmin and that all life everywhere is extinguished in the Night of Brahmin.

Since Earth is 4.5 Billion years old, we can thusly draw one of two possible conclusions:

1) Since we are in the Night of Brahmin and we are all still here then there is no Brahmin and the Hindu texts aren't worth the paper they're written on; or
2) We got a defective Brahmin for our universe and a defective god really isn't making a whole lotta sense.

That's not how it supposedly works.
During the day of Brahma universe is manifested and during the night of Brahma universe goes into non-manifested state. The catch is, when it goes back into manifested state again, it continues exactly where it previously stopped.
So, I suppose there could be night of Brahma that happened while you were reading this sentence but we wouldn't even notice because the universe continued from the exact moment where it gone to non-manifested state.
That's because life/universe/our experience according to Hindus is comparable to a dream.
That's why universe can just "pop up" ready made just like your personal dream universe always pops up ready made in the middle of some happening.

 

[david starling]

Your chart is wrong. Putin went on television a few minutes before 5:00 AM and announced the action in Ukraine, and at 5:07 AM the first missiles/bombs landed in Kyiv (Kiev).

View attachment 106615






Where is the ruler of the 7th place?

In the 12th place.

I just proved you wrong astrologically. Russia did have good reason to take this action.

In the world of Ptolemy and Dorotheus and the Persians, Britain is Aries. The US would be Sagittarius (and one can't help but note Moon is in Sagittarius), and Ptolemy gave Aquarius to Ukraine and Capricorn to Russia.

In looking at this chart, it is very difficult to believe that Russia did not use astrologers. I mean, the Asc is conjunct Venus/Mars in Capricorn.

Also note Sun/Jupiter conjunct in the 3rd place. That reduces the effectiveness of the US with Jupiter being in a weak place.

Fortuna is angular and ruled by Venus and what is the 10th place from Fortuna? That would be the Asc and the Venus/Mars conjunction.

Have a happy astrological day.

That chart's incorrect for when the invasion ordered by Putin FIRST started, in 2014 with the Russian invasion of Crimea, with no proven justification.

Since you're apparently a Trad, you consider both Russia and Ukraine to be ruled by Saturn. As a Mod seeing this information you so kindly provided, I instead have it as Saturnian-rulership regarding Russia versus Uranian-rulership of Ukraine. I was already seeing it that way, so I appreciate the confirmation from an ancient perspective. Thanks!

 

[waybread]

David, in terms of a nativity, there are several ways to calculated the ruling or most influential planet. In modern astrology it is the planet ruling the sign on the ascendant. I use the Putin birth chart at Astrodienst, and had some luck timing it to events in Putin's life, so I stick with it. With Scorpio rising, modernly you would use Pluto. Traditionally it would be Mars.

Traditionally you could look at the almuten, the planet with the most essential dignity as defined here: https://www.skyscript.co.uk/essential_dignities.html

This would probably be Saturn, exalted in Libra and in its own triplicity..

Or look at the lord of the geniture, which considers both essential and accidental dignities. Neither of these methods would use modern planets.

I'm hard pressed to name the lord of the geniture. In traditional astrology there are good and bad houses, and Saturn is in the un-wonderful 12th house. The sun falls in Libra. Mercury has no essential dignity and is in the 12th. Venus in angular but in detriment in Scorpio. Mars is in its own terms, but the 2nd house is kind of "meh." Jupiter is angular, but retrograde, in-sect, and in its own terms.

There isn't a strong candidate here.

Modernly, the galactic center is a power point in the horoscope. Putin's Mars conjunct the GC may account for his success in a way that the other planets don't so much.

 

[DC80]

Putin wives?

He's been married ONCE, now separated & living with a much younger girlfriend. He was married for over 30 years so not sure where you are getting your intel but he has no 'wives'.

But now, are we judging a person if they get divorced?

How many times have members been married? Divorced?

This is why astrology is not taken seriously by the general public. When assteroids are used to judge an entire chart & Juno is used for biased & untrue comments.

SAD how astrology has fallen on this thread.

Asteroids are a joke. Debunking asteroids is easy. Maneuvering the 903,047 truckloads of charts debunking them into position to dump on them is hard.

He has a Taurus/fixed 7th place, so he'll hang onto personal relationships long after their over out of loyalty. He does have a difficult time in romantic relationships with the Venus opposition retrograde Jupiter.

 

[DC80]

With his 3rd ruler, Saturn exalted and in a tight square to Uranus, the major mental ruler, there are signs of insanity.

That is a false interpretation not supported by astrology and certainly not supported by modern astrology. Sorry, but Saturn is not exalted.

Modern astrology says, and I quote: People with Saturn in Libra are disciplined, responsible, and serious, they are pleasant , philosophical and have a great sense of justice and fairness. It is a good placement of government work. Diplomatic and tactful, you work well with others as you prefer cooperating to competing. Difficult aspects can make you demanding, intolerant, lacking in forgiveness and even insincere.

It also says people with Saturn in the 12th place are morbidly sensitive and inclined to isolate themselves. Because you are tied to responsibility and accepted mores, you tend to keep your problems locked up within yourself. With difficult aspects, your father may have faded out of your life early.

Saturn square Uranus makes individuals who can be radical, a bit drastic, and have a know-it-all attitude. Yet you are also apprehensive about making decisions; you look for approval before you assert yourself.

Especially as Mercury/Neptune also forms a square with Uranus.

Your claims continue to fail. The modern interpretation of Saturn square Neptune is you can be either craft and designing or the complete opposite, lacking all ambition. You may assume other people's guilt; instead you should overcome your fear of failure, face competition, and learn to like yourself.

Mercury conjunct Neptune makes people abnormally sensitive,; you are dreamy, musical, poetic, and fond of dancing, water sports, and photography.

Mercury square Saturn makes people who are traditional, reserved, shy, hard-working, responsible and ambitious.

If you want, I can cite other modern astrology sources that totally refute your claims.

Mercury will become his next time lord, revealing his insane nature and making him even more destructive, with his intentions becoming more radical and chaotic.

No, next up is Sun five years from now, so your claims fail.

With his activated Sun in fall in the 12th, this is making him even worse with regards to wanting "attention" and trying as hard as he can to prove himself.

Sun is not in fall and that is not the correct modern interpretation.

In modern, the Sun in the 12th place operates like Sun in Pisces and those people are creative, spiritual, sometimes mystical, and may even be impractical.

I mean if only his Sun was in detriment in Aquarius, he wouldn't be so inclined to prove himself and be going to extremes to do this.

Also, all of his Libra 12th house planets, including the Sun, are all afflicted by Uranus, so it's not just about him trying everything in his power to prove himself, to gain the utmost respect that he feels his Sun lacks; the affliction to Uranus is also making him suspicious and paranoid of others, which isn't helping his mental health.

They're not afflicted by Uranus. I just proved they weren't.

 

[david starling]

That is a false interpretation not supported by astrology and certainly not supported by modern astrology. Sorry, but Saturn is not exalted.

Modern astrology says, and I quote: People with Saturn in Libra are disciplined, responsible, and serious, they are pleasant , philosophical and have a great sense of justice and fairness. It is a good placement of government work. Diplomatic and tactful, you work well with others as you prefer cooperating to competing. Difficult aspects can make you demanding, intolerant, lacking in forgiveness and even insincere.

It also says people with Saturn in the 12th place are morbidly sensitive and inclined to isolate themselves. Because you are tied to responsibility and accepted mores, you tend to keep your problems locked up within yourself. With difficult aspects, your father may have faded out of your life early.

Saturn square Uranus makes individuals who can be radical, a bit drastic, and have a know-it-all attitude. Yet you are also apprehensive about making decisions; you look for approval before you assert yourself.



Your claims continue to fail. The modern interpretation of Saturn square Neptune is you can be either craft and designing or the complete opposite, lacking all ambition. You may assume other people's guilt; instead you should overcome your fear of failure, face competition, and learn to like yourself.

Mercury conjunct Neptune makes people abnormally sensitive,; you are dreamy, musical, poetic, and fond of dancing, water sports, and photography.

Mercury square Saturn makes people who are traditional, reserved, shy, hard-working, responsible and ambitious.

If you want, I can cite other modern astrology sources that totally refute your claims.




No, next up is Sun five years from now, so your claims fail.



Sun is not in fall and that is not the correct modern interpretation.

In modern, the Sun in the 12th place operates like Sun in Pisces and those people are creative, spiritual, sometimes mystical, and may even be impractical.


They're not afflicted by Uranus. I just proved they weren't.

There are fears (including those of Elon Musk) that if thwarted and driven out of Sovereign Ukraine territory, that Putin will resort to using nuclear weapons, and that a full-out nuclear war would then ensue. That would be an "insane" act by Putin. So, It's reassuring that you don't see implications of insanity in his chart.

 

[waybread]

Asteroids are a joke. Debunking asteroids is easy. Maneuvering the 903,047 truckloads of charts debunking them into position to dump on them is hard.

He has a Taurus/fixed 7th place, so he'll hang onto personal relationships long after their over out of loyalty. He does have a difficult time in romantic relationships with the Venus opposition retrograde Jupiter.

Let me reiterate that the 7th is also the house of open enemies (vs. secretive 12th house back-stabbers.)

Putin, in fact is making more and more out of an ideological pitched battle between Noble Russia and the Evil West. Sort of the Sons of Light vs. the Sons of Darkness.

I think that the chart of a major political leader can be interpreted with some of the planetary meanings of mundane astrology, as well.

Putin is divorced from Lyudmila. I'm not sure what happened to his long-term GF Alina Kabaeva, a former gymnast.

Asteroids need a whole other thread. When misused, they are so much space junk. When used judiciously they can add a lot of interpretive value. Namesake asteroids, where they exist, are really valuable in synastry. I pretty much only use the conjunction with actual planets or angles. You can use cognate names in other languages (like John=Jean=Juan=Johannes=Ivan) I generally use the planet's orbs. Of course, closer is better.

Alina is apparently a Slavic version of the English name Adelaide. It may also be a variant of "Helen" or "Helena."

There is no asteroid Alina, but asteroid Aline conjuncts Putin's Venus. Asteroid Ludmila conjuncts his ascendant within the degree. Helen conjuncts his Uranus. Adele conjuncts his sun.

 

[david starling]

All aggressive warmongers are in the "Sons of Darkness" category, and that includes Putin. His Mars/Pluto Fire trine, together with his lack of a conscience, says it all. He's a Plutonian-Libran, which enables him to fool some people into believing he's "the good guy", with his phony little smile, when he's causing needless death and destruction all the while.

 

[waybread]

That is a false interpretation not supported by astrology and certainly not supported by modern astrology. Sorry, but Saturn is not exalted.

Modern astrology says, and I quote: People with Saturn in Libra are disciplined, responsible, and serious, they are pleasant , philosophical and have a great sense of justice and fairness. It is a good placement of government work. Diplomatic and tactful, you work well with others as you prefer cooperating to competing. Difficult aspects can make you demanding, intolerant, lacking in forgiveness and even insincere.

It also says people with Saturn in the 12th place are morbidly sensitive and inclined to isolate themselves. Because you are tied to responsibility and accepted mores, you tend to keep your problems locked up within yourself. With difficult aspects, your father may have faded out of your life early.

Saturn square Uranus makes individuals who can be radical, a bit drastic, and have a know-it-all attitude. Yet you are also apprehensive about making decisions; you look for approval before you assert yourself.



Your claims continue to fail. The modern interpretation of Saturn square Neptune is you can be either craft and designing or the complete opposite, lacking all ambition. You may assume other people's guilt; instead you should overcome your fear of failure, face competition, and learn to like yourself.

Mercury conjunct Neptune makes people abnormally sensitive,; you are dreamy, musical, poetic, and fond of dancing, water sports, and photography.

Mercury square Saturn makes people who are traditional, reserved, shy, hard-working, responsible and ambitious.

If you want, I can cite other modern astrology sources that totally refute your claims.




No, next up is Sun five years from now, so your claims fail.



Sun is not in fall and that is not the correct modern interpretation.

In modern, the Sun in the 12th place operates like Sun in Pisces and those people are creative, spiritual, sometimes mystical, and may even be impractical.


They're not afflicted by Uranus. I just proved they weren't.

DC80, I have a home library of astrology books and can look up sites on on-line as well as you can.

Please cite your precise sources on modern astrology. Page numbers or specific links would be appreciated.

Or as they say in poker, I'll see your $10 and raise you $100.

I started out in astrology in 1990, when some good astrology books were available in book stores, but the Internet was just getting started. I cut my astro-teeth on modern astrology. There was a trend in the mid-20th century to undo the basics of traditional western astrology, but it came roaring back a few years later. (You're familiar with Skyscript.) These days I try to be mindful of both.

To my thinking, the conflation of planets, signs, and houses is a big problem of a particular brand of modern astrology. See Deborah Houlding's book: Houses: Temples of the Sky. Houses and signs do not mean the same thing. Sometimes their meanings overlap but oftentimes their meanings are hugely different.

I hope you're not trying to come up with some astrological excuse for that sociopathic dictator Vladimir Putin.

It's hard to tell.

 

[david starling]

I started with Rosicrucian astrology in 1968. For me, the number for each sign, from Aries thru Pisces, 1 thru 12, is vital. Then there's:

H1, the House most compatible with Aries
H2, the House most compatible with Taurus
Etc.

Key words: (Aries) - I Am; (Taurus) - I Have; (Gemini) - I Think; (Cancer) - I Feel; (Leo) - I Will; (Virgo) - I Analyze; (Libra) - I Balance; (Scorpio) - I Desire; (Sagittarius) - I See; (Capricorn) - I Use; (Aquarius) - I Know; and, (Pisces) - I Believe.

The Elements and Modalities are vital: (Fire) - Energy; (Earth) - Matter; (Air) - Mind; and, (Water) - Emotion.

(Cardinal) - Innovative; (Fixed) - Established; (Mutable) - Variational.



^These are all still at the foundation of my version of astrology. I haven't needed to change them, since in my experience, they work just fine - Basics.

As for Putin, all of the astrological theorizing in the world can't change the fact that he's behaving abominably!

 

[waybread]

David, I know this signs-by-the-numbers system is common in some forms of modern astrology. As you indicate, the Rosicrucians had one of the early astrology courses.

I think signs show how or in what manner a planet operates. A house shows the area of life a planet operates. These aren't the same concept.

I became exasperated with sign=house thinking when the astrology books coming out were talking about "Venus in Capricorn or in the 10th house," or "Mars in Taurus or in the 2nd house." In these two examples, suppose someone has Taurus in the 10th house or Capricorn in the 5th house? Or what if it's Mars in Taurus in the 10th? Is that just like Mars in Capricorn? in the It gets kind of crazy-making, especially when we follow through on subsequent iterations.

I use house cusp rulers or lords, which seems to work better.

Another example about house and sign differences, referring to Putin's chart, is his Libra planets. As a sign, Libra is concerned with fairness and balance. Yet the 7th house is not only the house of marriage, but the house of open enemies and litigation.

 

[david starling]

David, I know this signs-by-the-numbers system is common in some forms of modern astrology. As you indicate, the Rosicrucians had one of the early astrology courses.

I think signs show how or in what manner a planet operates. A house shows the area of life a planet operates. These aren't the same concept.

I became exasperated with sign=house thinking when the astrology books coming out were talking about "Venus in Capricorn or in the 10th house," or "Mars in Taurus or in the 2nd house." In these two examples, suppose someone has Taurus in the 10th house or Capricorn in the 5th house? Or what if it's Mars in Taurus in the 10th? Is that just like Mars in Capricorn? in the It gets kind of crazy-making, especially when we follow through on subsequent iterations.

I use house cusp rulers or lords, which seems to work better.

Another example about house and sign differences, referring to Putin's chart, is his Libra planets. As a sign, Libra is concerned with fairness and balance. Yet the 7th house is not only the house of marriage, but the house of open enemies and litigation.

I agree that signs and Houses shouldn't be conflated. That's why I used the term "compatible". For example, H2 is about one's assets, what one owns for oneself.
And, Sign#2, Taurus, has the key words, "I Have".

But, H2 is "area of life", whereas the signs impart "qualities" to the placements which are acting in the chart. Therefore, a placement in H2 is not equivalent to a placement in Sign#2, Taurus.

 

[Nexus7]

Maybe it is possible to get top hung up on astrological ages. All that does seem clearbis that history can have a stubborn way of repeating itsf, most esoecially of that history is marked vy trauma and suffering. A treaty following a war seen as punitive ends up being as raw a cultural wound to a new generation several generations along, for example. Wars twnd to create more wars.

Therebis the orecession of the equinoxes, but fewer other ways to see hiw time becomes marked over milennia, though new planets such as Sedna and Eris may begin to help mark this.

I did hearbthat significant events keep marking time passages, continuing to reverberate over ri.e.

 

[david starling]

Maybe it is possible to get top hung up on astrological ages. All that does seem clearbis that history can have a stubborn way of repeating itsf, most esoecially of that history is marked vy trauma and suffering. A treaty following a war seen as punitive ends up being as raw a cultural wound to a new generation several generations along, for example. Wars twnd to create more wars.

Therebis the orecession of the equinoxes, but fewer other ways to see hiw time becomes marked over milennia, though new planets such as Sedna and Eris may begin to help mark this.

I did hearbthat significant events keep marking time passages, continuing to reverberate over ri.e.

Nexus, we need something astrological to explain the really noticeable, long-term, long-lasting changes in human cultural beliefs and technologies. That's where the astrological Ages concept comes into it.

Where would Putin be without his ability to threaten nuclear war, for example?
And, why ARE we now such a Globalistic world culture, with telescopes, extremely accurate clocks, time zones, electricity and explosives not used in past Ages within the historical records?

 

[DC80]

I have no doubt that Putin is convinced that conquest of Ukraine is his unique destiny, and that now is the time to manifest it. Putin's solar arc Pluto, MC, and Lilith are within a degree of conjuncting his ascendant.

Modern astrology does not support your claims.

Jimmy Carter was quite possibly too far ahead of his time. He used his Libra "super powers" to pursue diplomacy, visiting dozens of foreign nations.

Jimmy Carter used his Libra "super powers" to kill several 100,000 Kurds.

In Summer 1975, before Carter became president, the Iraqis launched a massive offensive against the Kurds. By Spring 1976, the Kurds had been defeated. Several 100,000 fled Iraqi Kurdistan into Kurdistan in Iran.

Shortly after taking office in January 1977, he ordered the Shah to turn 40,000 Kurds over to the Iraqis. They were executed. All of them. Carter knew they would be executed. A little over 200,000 of the Iraqi Kurds in Iran then applied for political asylum, and they most certainly qualified under the laws at that particular time. Carter denied their applications en masse.

In addition to denying them political asylum, Carter refused to provide humanitarian assistance to the Kurds, ordered the Shah not to provide humanitarian assistance, and then blocked the UN from providing humanitarian assistance.

Carter also used his Libra "super powers" to order the production and deployment of the Pershing II intermediate range missile system and ground-launched cruise missiles to Europe.

Then he denied the Shah a medical visa to get cancer treatment in the US after creating a rift between the US and Iran and its new leader Ayatollah Khomeini.

As president during the 1970s gas crisis, Carter famously urged everyone to turn down the thermostat and put on a sweater. He lowered highway driving speeds, saving both gas and lives.

That did not happen on this Earth. The Arab Oil Embargo was in 1973, Carter was governor of Georgia, not president of the US. It was President Nixon who did the things you falsely attribute to Carter.

Elena, Pluto can be absolutely devastating.

There's no evidence of that Putin's chart. To prove your reading is erroneous, we need only look at the evidence.

Mars in Sagittarius says: "Your inner strength is based on a good philosophy of life. You operated with great bursts of energy but have little endurance. You often embrace new ideas without thorough investigation beforehand. Full of life and vigor, you can be a crusader and are quite patriotic. Rhythm, harmony and tempo come naturally to you. Because you are gallant, extravagant and scintillating, your cheerful presence is welcome at any social gathering."

Mars in the Second House says: "You are acquisitive, work hard for financial gain, and usually earn well, spend freely and are most generous to others. If your expectations aren't met immediately, you can become very impatient. This is a good placement for engineers, mechanics and any other Martian pursuit such as military or government work."

Mars trine Pluto says: "You use your emotional and physical energy positively; this enables you to become deeply involved and committed to righting society's wrongs. You will probably dedicate yourself to helping others. Your courage and self-confidence mark you as a strong leader."

Pluto in Leo says: "You have self-confidence and a great sense of authority. You have good business sense and may promote mass interests. With difficult aspects it can also lead to sexual exploitation or the enjoyment of perverse pleasures, and it may bring about a desire to rule or dominate."

Venus square Pluto says: " Your sexuality is strong, at times lustful and even lascivious. This can lead to philandering and can create many psychological inhibitions."

Jupiter square Pluto says: "You rarely agree with accepted codes. You set yourself up as a law unto yourself, but then find it hard to accept the consequences."

Pluto in the 10th House says: "You are self-assertive and willing to fight authority if necessary in order to achieve your goals. Strong, courageous and tenacious, you can be a dictator, an innovator, a planner or an inventor. With difficult aspects, your insistence on self-determination can border on megalomania. You are a leader in your own circle or profession, and you may be either loved or hated, but you will never be ignored."

Putin is the head of his country and he is charged with the duty of defending Russia against all enemies foreign and domestic and that is exactly what he is doing even though you refuse to admit it.

I am all for keeping an open mind, but there is a turning point when failing to condemn atrocities indicates that one is basically OK with them and unwilling to make a real assessment of the perpetrator..

Did you condemn the US atrocities in Iraq or Afghanistan?

Please show posts where you did.

Have you ever looked at a map? Ukraine ain't Iraq or Afghanistan.

When I called for fire, artillery rounds don't make any distinctions and if Iraqi civilians got in the way, that's sad, but that's what happens.

And door-to-door fighting is the absolute worst. I was in Basrah which was only marginally better than Fallujah. I was getting shot at from everywhere: windows, rooftops, alley ways, street corners, markets, doorways.

I'm not morally obligated to die so civilians don't. If civilians got in the way, then that's just how it is.

Even worse than being shot at and having to kill others, including civilians, we shouldn't have even been there because the US was not justified. My platoon sergeant got wounded and since I was the highest ranking E-6 I took over and then my platoon leader got killed and so I ran the platoon for 4 months before we got another and he got wounded the first time out so I ended up running the platoon the whole time. And all because someone said the Taliban and al-Qaeda trained in Iraq and when that "proof" evaporated they started screaming WMDs which was a total crock.

Incidentally, I just learned that asteroid Lucifer conjuncts Vladimir Putin's sun and Saturn, at 16 degrees Libra

I just learned space rock Russian Savior conjuncted his Asc. What of it?

 

[DC80]

Blackbery, your ideas are unsustainable.

Putin had two older siblings who died before he was born. This is possibly shown by Chiron in Saturn-ruled Capricorn in Putin's 3rd house.

Traditional astrology says if you find Moon and Sun and Saturn and Mars in signs not their own then they indicate the loss of brothers.

Those conditions are fulfilled in Putin's chart.

Venus in the Asc opposition Jupiter denies brothers. That condition is also met in Putin's chart. Note that Venus on the Dsc opposing Jupiter denies brothers and often denies children as well.

The news today is that Russian troops stationed at Chernobyl were not protected from its highly toxic radiation, and some are now showing signs of severe radiation sickness.

I mean, who does that?

The US government. From the New York Times: The Cincinnati study exposed patients to the highest levels of whole-body radiation and, some experts say, probably caused the most deaths of all the known Government-sponsored radiation experiments since World War II.

The British government. From Youtube: At 47:47, hear the harrowing tale of Pritam Kaur, a Punjabi mother in 1969 Coventry, England, unknowingly subjected to illegal radioactive experiments by the MEDICAL RESEARCH COUNCIL.

According to you, so long as the Russian government lied to the troops about the radiation, or if the Russians called it "an experiment" it's perfectly okay.

To me the big question about Vladimir Putin is not his being a "born leader"-- a quality he did not demonstrate until well into middle age.

Did you know him before that? I think not.

It is why, as a world leader, Putin is so clearly a sociopath. He feels no empathy for the people he's murdered-- including his own troops and ethnic Russians in Ukraine.

Are you living with him?

How do you know?

What would you say are the astrological signatures of a megalomaniac sociopath?

Look at Churchill's chart.

Sorry, Elena, but there are times in history when not to make a moral judgement becomes morally bankrupt.

Show us where you said the actions of the US and Britain are immoral.

I think sun conjunct Saturn is typically a signature of low self-esteem.

That is unsupported by astrology.

Possibly. Normally thousands of people don't have to die for one megalomaniac to work out his Pluto issues.

Tell that to the people in all of the countries the US dominates.

I've been married to a sun-Libra for 25 years. My brother-in-law is Libra. My brother was a Libra. The latter two were both successful engineers.

Not relevant.

Sorry, Elena, but there was no justification for Putin to invade Ukraine. None. He fabricated his reasons. Ukraine was guilty of nothing more than wanting to act like the sovereign country that it is.

Putin had no reason whatsoever to invade Ukraine other than greed for more land. His invasion has rightly been called "a war of choice."

Elena, why on earth are you sticking up for a war criminal like Vladimir Putin?

You're not very knowledgeable on the subject matter and an intellectually honest person would never comment on something they know nothing about.

The Bush Administration illegally overthrew the Ukrainian government and installed a puppet.

Explain how that is morally justified.

The Bush Administration subsequently pushed its new puppet for a naval base in Crimea. Because you are not familiar with the geography of Earth, you are not able to understand that action would have denied Russian merchant and naval vessels access to the entire Mediterranean and Black Sea Region.

It was the immoral actions of the US (and Britain) that led to the action in Crimea.

When the Ukrainian people cast aside the US puppet, the Obama Administration then initiated another immoral illegal overthrow of the Ukrainian government in 2014. That's how a whole bunch of Democrat supporters ended up on the boards of Ukrainian companies.

The US media reported rebel groups besieging Kiev in response to the illegal overthrow of their government, but other countries correctly reported it as an attempted counter-coup (which failed.)

It is once again the immoral actions of the US (and Britain) that led to the current conflict.

Hypothetically, assume Russia illegally overthrew the Mexican government in 2004 and was pushing for a naval base in the Gulf of California between Mexico-proper and the Baja Peninsula.

Would the US be morally justified in seizing the Baja Peninsula to prevent Russia from establishing a naval base?

Assume the Mexicans subsequently tossed the Russian puppet and then Russia initiated a new coup and put a new puppet in charge with the intent of militarizing Mexico.

Assume that President Biden invaded Mexico in response.

Are you going to call Biden a "sociopath"? Are you going to claim the US is committing atrocities? Are you going to claim the US had no just cause to invade?

If you wouldn't do that, then your position is 100% hypocritical.

As you can see, I am all for astrological analyses.

When do you plan on doing that?

I hope we're clear by now that Putin is no "white hat."

He's not a villain, either, in spite of your attempts to villainize him through unsupported astrological claims.

And please, let's not compare western interest in Ukrainian democracy to the Cuban missile crisis of 1962.

Why not? It's exactly the same. The US threatened Russia by putting missiles in Italy and Turkey. Russia could not respond to the use of those missiles without escalating to the use of ICBMs or SLBMs, which would contradict Russia's policies on nuclear weapons. The only way to negate the US strategic advantage was to place equivalent missiles in Cuba.

Had Kennedy not ignored Eisenhower and had he not been so brazenly hostile and aggressive, the Cuban missile crisis would never have happened.

Elena, [deleted attacking comments - Moderator], but what I've written about Putin's efforts to destabilize other countries is common knowledge among people who keep up with global politics from a centrist position.

And what of US efforts to destabilize other countries?

 

[DC80]

The world is watching with shock the brutal destruction of cities in the Ukraine, and wondering who is next on Putin's list of places to conquer.

They were wondering the same thing when the US attacked Afghanistan and then the US attacked Iraq. The US isn't done attacking countries. Not by a long shot.

At the same time, his troops are having difficulty making headway thanks to the force of Ukranian patriots zealously defending their country.

Well, it is urban terrain and the only thing worse than fighting on urban terrain is fighting in Hell.

We would expect to see some really brutal aspects in Putin's chart, likened to a serial killer!

Then we should see "some really brutal aspects" in the charts of several dozen US presidents.

Oh, sorry, maybe you don't see the Indian Wars as "the brutal destruction" of US tribal groups and their homelands.

So we have a stellium in libra, the sign of peace and justice! Sun/saturn/mercury/neptune!
What is that all about?

We'll get to that.

Libra mercury is sextile a sporting mars in sagittarius, not exactly a war sign either.
Pluto in Leo on the midheaven, the leader and generous father!
Do we have the correct birth data for this man??

I don't think the birth time is exact, but it is really, really close.

The one red flag in the chart is an unaspected moon.
This man's emotions have nothing to ground them, they are completely detached from him.
Moon in airy gemini is by nature detached, but in this case it is very much detached.

It's unlikely that Putin is able to feel compassion for them, with his nearly unaspected moon in an air sign, and Venus in detriment in Scorpio.

Moon is not unaspected. Moon trines Sun.

Modern astrology says: "Popular, tranquil and happy, you are not very ambitions, but you can be successful without much struggle."

Regarding Moon in Gemini, modern astrology does support emotional detachment. Of Moon in the 8th: "You have an inherent need for security. You are often psychic and interested in matters others consider morbid, such as life after death." Modern astrology of the ruler of the 9th in the 8th says: "Your philosophy of life could very well be connected with the metaphysical or occult."

And, so sorry, Venus is not in "detriment."

I'm beginning to be allergic to SN!
Why does no one want to insert it in the chart, it gets missed half the time.

What would be the point? Any competent astrologer knows the South Node is directly opposite the North Node so's you need only look opposite the North Node.

Yes, ghastly.

Apparently sagittarius figures often in charts of serial killers. Putin has mars in sag.

Which ones? Sharon Tate? Oh, wait, she was the victim of a serial killer.
Gerald Amirault? Not a serial killer. He was convicted of sexual abuse in a daycare in a trial reminiscent of the Salem Witch Trials. He was later pardoned as there was no evidence and witness testimony was either lies, exaggerations, distortions, or outright coerced.
Amelia Gossage? Nope, she was a murder victim.
Colin Ferguson? Nope. He's an actor and director.
Richard Eberling? He was convicted of killing the wife of Dr. Sam Sheppard but not a serial killer.
Bruno Hauptman? If I remember it was alleged he kidnapped the Lindenberg's child.
Andrew Philip Cunanan was a spree killer which is not exactly a serial killer.
Richard Cottingham is a confessed serial killer.
Jeanne Wright drowned her four children.
Theodore Bundy? Yeah, sure.

Out of 138 charts of killers, serial killers and other criminals only 14 had Mars in Sagittarius or about 10% just eye-balling it.

Bundy had Sun, Mars, and Moon in Sagittarius in the 5th place.
Cottingham had Sun, Mars and Moon in Sagittarius in the 7th place.
Cunanan had Sagittarius Mars in the 9th place and the only aspect was the applying square from the 6th place Virgo Sun.
Wright had Mercury, Mars and Saturn in Sagittarius in the 2nd place.

What were you saying?

Two people are born on the same day, one becomes a mass murderer the other becomes mayor. How does that happen?

They were born at different times and different places. In the one verifiable instance of two people born on the same day in the same place and **** near the exact time, one became king of England and the other became a king of industry and both were illustriously wealthy and powerful and they died very close together, within a few days if I remember right.

When the wedding of Charles and Diana took place, I recall reading astrologers analysing the charts, and the wedding chart, and expressing all glowing terms, a match made in heaven, a fairy tale love, etc.
When I looked at the charts I was dumb struck by all the negative aspects. They glossed over them because this was the love story of the century!

A lot of that going around.

 

[waybread]

DC80, it would be a massive digression and hijack of this thread to refute your simplistic hard-right misinterpretations of history. So I won't. Save Jimmy Carter for his own thread. It is obviously ridiculous to blame one US president for multiple decisions made by multiple Near Eastern leaders. The US president has power but he is scarcely the only independent variable in complex equations.

My modern astrology favorite was Robert Hand and his common sense approach, followed by the early (not evolutionary) books of Steven Forrest. Hand's work on aspects and Forrest's dynamic approach were essential. I learned a lot from Karen Hamaker-Zondag on house cusp rulers; and Stephen Arroyo, on elements. I also looked into offshoots that I don't recall them mentioning, like harmonics, namesake asteroids, and the history of astrology. Probably about 9 years ago, I began looking into traditional western and horary astrology practice. I see benefits to the sensible sides both modern and traditional schools of thought.

One crystal-clear observation is that there is no single unified modern astrology. It has different branches: theosophical, psychological, evolutionary, pop-schlock, Rosicrucian, and Magi, to name a few. They do not all agree, certainly not on the conflation of signs and houses.

I also recognize that signs have their limits in interpretation. Vedic astrologers also produce good results, but their sidereal zodiac places planets about 24 degrees earlier than the tropical zodiac. So most people's planets will move from sign "B" in tropical to sign "A" in sidereal; but the aspect structure is preserved.

So your citing this or that source gives you some evidence, but it is not conclusive. Were I to go back and re-read some of Hand's and Forrest's earlier material, I could readily come up with sources that talk about Mars in Sagittarius differently.

You need to cite your source/s. You put material in direct quotes. But without citing your source, it is plagiarism.

I have looked at Vladimir Putin's chart a lot. Perhaps, like me, you have tried to rectify it using significant dates in his career.

It goes without saying that Vladimir Putin has positive and powerful themes in his horoscope. Were this not the case, he hardly could have risen to his position of authority and power.

Put I fear you drank the Kool-Aid. Hating the United States as you do does not somehow turn Vladimir Putin into a savior. He meets the personal criteria for sociopath. Under his rulership, you would have no freedom of expression. Putin's unprovoked war has caused millions of refugees and tens of thousands of deaths-- just in case you want to play by the same rules you apply to President Carter.

 

[Osamenor]

@DC80 where are these quotes from?

Modern astrology says: "Popular, tranquil and happy, you are not very ambitions, but you can be successful without much struggle."

Of Moon in the 8th: "You have an inherent need for security. You are often psychic and interested in matters others consider morbid, such as life after death." Modern astrology of the ruler of the 9th in the 8th says: "Your philosophy of life could very well be connected with the metaphysical or occult."

Forum rules require that you cite the source if you're quoting something from outside this forum.