Putin: White hat or villain?

waybread

Well-known member
:ROFLMAO:

So, you want to change Putin's chart and construct one that's more in line with the western propaganda.

One of the key placements in Putin's chart is his Mars.
Mars is on Galactic Center. Although GC, for obvious reasons, was not included in ancient astrology, we can use it as we would use fixed star.
I've seen numerous examples of GC in natal charts and it works. GC gives highest position in whatever field native is active, whether it's sports champion, head of the Church (Pope) or president of a country.
The fact that he has Mars on GC might suggest that he will be invincible militarily.

So, your concerns that he might be a destroyer are correct. He is the "destroyer" of you, of the West. For the rest of the world he is the "liberator", from you, from the West.
Someone here mentioned "democracy". American notion of democracy is a choice between 2 corporate puppets. And you are spreading this "democracy" using bombers all over the world. World needs to be saved and liberated from such "democracy".
Cap, whatever else Putin might be to astrologers who don't actually have a personal stake in the Russian invasion of Ukraine, all of us have to be really careful to read Putin's chart as objectively we can; and then not to ignore the carnage in Ukraine (on both sides.) You can't ignore the casualties among young Russian men sent to die, due to your personal beef against the "West."

Economically, the "destruction" of "the West" would be globally disastrous for you and your country. Verifying my statement will take some homework on your part, but not much. (Keep in mind that China's economy is propped up by western consumers.)

Suppose Putin did prevail, and took over your homeland, either directly or as a vassal state. You can kiss good-bye the freedom of speech that allows you to post freely on this forum.

A bigger concern is what your simmering hatred does to you as a human being.

We both agree that Mars is prominent in Putin's chart. Mars rules warfare and aggression; Putin's stock-in-trade

The Galactic Center does not guarantee Putin's invincibility. It you think about it, everybody has the GC somewhere. Mars completes its orbit every 2 years, so a few million entirely ordinary people will have the GC conjunct Mars, their sun, or some other key point in their horoscopes. Also, it is subject to widely different interpretations. Here is Melanie Reinhart's take on it: https://www.astro.com/astrology/aa_article170503_e.htm

Nothing there guaranteeing success in world domination.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Cap, whatever else Putin might be to astrologers who don't actually have a personal stake in the Russian invasion of Ukraine, all of us have to be really careful to read Putin's chart as objectively we can; and then not to ignore the carnage in Ukraine (on both sides.) You can't ignore the casualties among young Russian men sent to die, due to your personal beef against the "West."

Economically, the "destruction" of "the West" would be globally disastrous for you and your country. Verifying my statement will take some homework on your part, but not much. (Keep in mind that China's economy is propped up by western consumers.)

Suppose Putin did prevail, and took over your homeland, either directly or as a vassal state. You can kiss good-bye the freedom of speech that allows you to post freely on this forum.

A bigger concern is what your simmering hatred does to you as a human being.

We both agree that Mars is prominent in Putin's chart. Mars rules warfare and aggression; Putin's stock-in-trade

The Galactic Center does not guarantee Putin's invincibility. It you think about it, everybody has the GC somewhere. Mars completes its orbit every 2 years, so a few million entirely ordinary people will have the GC conjunct Mars, their sun, or some other key point in their horoscopes. Also, it is subject to widely different interpretations. Here is Melanie Reinhart's take on it: https://www.astro.com/astrology/aa_article170503_e.htm

Nothing there guaranteeing success in world domination.

With my MC partile conj. the GC in tropical Sagittarius, I COULD rule the World.

But, I'm a lazy Pisces, and it would be too much trouble, so why even bother?

:lol:
 

Cap

Well-known member
Cap, whatever else Putin might be to astrologers who don't actually have a personal stake in the Russian invasion of Ukraine, all of us have to be really careful to read Putin's chart as objectively we can; and then not to ignore the carnage in Ukraine (on both sides.) You can't ignore the casualties among young Russian men sent to die, due to your personal beef against the "West."

Economically, the "destruction" of "the West" would be globally disastrous for you and your country. Verifying my statement will take some homework on your part, but not much. (Keep in mind that China's economy is propped up by western consumers.)

Suppose Putin did prevail, and took over your homeland, either directly or as a vassal state. You can kiss good-bye the freedom of speech that allows you to post freely on this forum.

A bigger concern is what your simmering hatred does to you as a human being.

We both agree that Mars is prominent in Putin's chart. Mars rules warfare and aggression; Putin's stock-in-trade

The Galactic Center does not guarantee Putin's invincibility. It you think about it, everybody has the GC somewhere. Mars completes its orbit every 2 years, so a few million entirely ordinary people will have the GC conjunct Mars, their sun, or some other key point in their horoscopes. Also, it is subject to widely different interpretations. Here is Melanie Reinhart's take on it: https://www.astro.com/astrology/aa_article170503_e.htm

Nothing there guaranteeing success in world domination.

Yes, just like with any fixed star influence, GC is not going to manifest in the same way for everyone, it depends on everything else in a chart and on circumstances surrounding native. In Putin's case, he is obviously president. In some other native case, it could manifest as a head of house council in some building or whatever. Language of astrology uses very few things to describe everything.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Yes, just like with any fixed star influence, GC is not going to manifest in the same way for everyone, it depends on everything else in a chart and on circumstances surrounding native. In Putin's case, he is obviously president. In some other native case, it could manifest as a head of house council in some building or whatever. Language of astrology uses very few things to describe everything.

Because of his chart, AND his lack of a conscience, he wants the job badly enough to kill for it.

Reminds me of his ally Kim Jong Un, in N.Korea. Is there a chart for him?
 

Cap

Well-known member

He has both Jupiter and Neptune conjunct the GC!
I wouldn't count Neptune. Only "personal" planet Jupiter.
That's how GC manifests, it makes native head or boss or first in some area of life. Obviously, very few people are heads of states but everyone with GC will have some head role somewhere, no matter how small.
Captain of children's soccer team, for example. :)
 

waybread

Well-known member
Cap, if you're correct about the GC (and I'm unconvinced that we actually know how it functions horoscopically) this doesn't speak well of Putin. He has used his Mars assertiveness and energy to invade a sovereign nation under a false pretext, resulting in about half a million casualties on both sides; but with far more among Russian soldiers. You know the expression, "cannon fodder"? That's how he cynically treated soldiers from the poorer outlying Russian provinces, as well as criminals released from jail in exchange for serving in the army or the Wagner Group.

One problem is that the Galactic Plane is tilted at a significant angle from the ecliptic. It's one thing for a planet to be "out-of-bounds," but the GC, because of its tilt, may not even be close. Vladimir Putin's GC is seriously out-of-bounds, at almost 29 degrees south of declination. On the one hand, an out-of-bounds planet, unconstrained by social norms, may indicate a lot of originality; but we also have to consider at what point a black hole so far from the earth would have a meaningful effect.

The other problem is that the GC moves very slowly from a geocentric perspective, maybe one degree per century, so a few billion people will have it at the same or nearby zodiac degree. Millions of people will have the GC conjunct some planet or angle or other. I could easily come up with some prominent western leaders, and argue for their dominance, using your calculus. We can't all be historically significant.

Then we're hard-pressed to explain really prominent people with their GC nowhere near anything significant in the charts.

I just looked up Putin's declinations again, and what I think is far more significant is that his natal Mars is significantly out-of-bounds, at 25 degrees south, and // his out-of-bounds moon.
 

waybread

Well-known member
I wouldn't count Neptune. Only "personal" planet Jupiter.
That's how GC manifests, it makes native head or boss or first in some area of life. Obviously, very few people are heads of states but everyone with GC will have some head role somewhere, no matter how small.
Captain of children's soccer team, for example. :)
This is an interesting theory, but how many horoscopes have you (or some other) astrologer used to back it up?

Then having a "head role" doesn't mean the person will use their "head role" for any kind of beneficial contribution.

I'm not the only one to see Vladimir Putin as meeting the psychological definition of sociopath. These people believe they are a law unto themselves, and so have trouble distinguishing right from wrong. They feel no remorse, and do not consider the feelings or rights of other people.

I neglected to mention all of the Ukrainian refugees fleeing into other parts of Europe and abroad. Putin could care less about terrified little kids (thousands of whom he also forcibly kidnapped into Russia under the false pretext that they were orphans.)

Although you no doubt have your reasons for hating "the West," I don't think you want the Russian flag flying over your country, either. Putin sees himself as a latter-day czar, or leader who will reassemble the old USSR and spheres of influence.

In Putin's horoscope we see a so called "talent triangle" involving Mars, Pluto-MC, and Saturn-Neptune-Mercury. which might be kind of cool, expect that these are not planets capable of feeling ordinary human compassion. (Neptune is either the savior or the victim.)

The moon is the major seat of compassion, but Putin's moon is in an air sign, suggesting that his feelings tend to be more abstract. More to the point, Putin's moon makes no major aspects. Coupled with his moon's out-of-bounds declination, counter-parallel aggressive Mars, there's not a lot of evidence that he is capable of feeling much compassion.

Venus in Scorpio isn't helping matters, with only wide aspects to Uranus (trine) and Jupiter retrograde (opposition.)

Cap, you know the saying: be careful what you wish for.
 

leomoon

Well-known member
Did Putin even have a religious upbringing?

I recall him vividly in my mind's eye; standing meekly like a dutiful son next to his mother as she spoke proudly of her son being baptized in the Russian Orthodox Church I guess it was and comparing it to the Roman Catholic Church.

btw: Thanks for that link - How very sad though. So, it must have made quite an impression on him growing up there, wanting to impress some males who took the place of an absent father
 

leomoon

Well-known member
Yes, just like with any fixed star influence, GC is not going to manifest in the same way for everyone, it depends on everything else in a chart and on circumstances surrounding native. In Putin's case, he is obviously president. In some other native case, it could manifest as a head of house council in some building or whatever. Language of astrology uses very few things to describe everything.
I don't think the GC impels in any way. I have my BML conjunct the Galactic Center pointed out to me years ago by an Astrologer who simply said it was reflective of being one who would teach many. It's opposite the 11th of the masses. In some respects I guess she was right.
But impel like a planet or fixed star ray? Nah! I doubt it. It's an astronomical point. I've been wrong before however in my many decades.

Galactic center astrology is a branch of astrology that focuses on the alignment of the Sun with the center of our Milky Way Galaxy12. The Galactic Center (GC) is a supermassive black hole that represents our cosmic origins and destiny23. It is located at 26-27 degrees of Sagittarius, a sign of freedom and truth The GC is said to stimulate our sub-conscious mind and urge us to release old wounds and align with Higher Consciousness5.



Refer:
GC will have some head role somewhere, no matter how small.
Captain of children's soccer team, for example

Nope, doesn't fit either! Never a head role. Always preferred being the "face in the crowd" :cool: except as an author.
 
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leomoon

Well-known member
Did Putin even have a religious upbringing?



..... The Russian Orthodox Church is providing much of the symbolism and ideology that Putin has used to cement his popularity. When he faced his first election campaign to become Yeltsin’s successor in early 2000, he revealed to the public that he had been baptized secretly by his mother; in fact, his mother told everyone on television how she had gathered her courage to get little Putin baptized in 1952, that is, one year before Stalin’s death. Putin, whose macho displays of shirtless manhood are well known, is actually wearing a silver cross around his neck; a gift from his mother. In one of his most spectacular displays of masculinity, he submerged himself in an icy lake during the Orthodox Festival of Epiphany; this can be seen on a video that prominently shows Putin’s cross. Putin has been flaunting his religious faith; he is often seen on television praying, crossing himself, kissing icons, and lighting candles. Priests have held ceremonies to bless Putin, and Patriarch Kirill has called Putin “a miracle of God.”


This is not the same interview I saw - because I'm remembering one around the time he visited G.W. Bush, but here is a reference of another:

Here is a video clip (looks much older) before his divorce I suppose, and in a Russian Orthodox Church talking with Oliver Stone about his family: (he's since remarried ? the younger woman he divorced for, and has more children with her)
 
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Cap

Well-known member
The other problem is that the GC moves very slowly from a geocentric perspective, maybe one degree per century, so a few billion people will have it at the same or nearby zodiac degree. Millions of people will have the GC conjunct some planet or angle or other. I could easily come up with some prominent western leaders, and argue for their dominance, using your calculus. We can't all be historically significant.

Everything said above is true for any fixed star. Every fixed star is moving at approx. 1 deg. per 72 years and millions of people have some planet conj. some fixed star. Do you use fixed stars? I do, and I find them to be very important factor in astrology.
This is an interesting theory, but how many horoscopes have you (or some other) astrologer used to back it up?
By all means, don't use it.
GC was brought to my attention by another fellow astrologer who researched it and since then my own observation have just confirmed his original theories.
Economically, the "destruction" of "the West" would be globally disastrous for you and your country. Verifying my statement will take some homework on your part, but not much. (Keep in mind that China's economy is propped up by western consumers.)
I guess, people from Roman Empire had similar argument. And, surprise surprise, life without Roman Empire went on just like it will go on without West or US as significant factors.
I'm not the only one to see Vladimir Putin as meeting the psychological definition of sociopath. These people believe they are a law unto themselves, and so have trouble distinguishing right from wrong. They feel no remorse, and do not consider the feelings or rights of other people.

I neglected to mention all of the Ukrainian refugees fleeing into other parts of Europe and abroad. Putin could care less about terrified little kids (thousands of whom he also forcibly kidnapped into Russia under the false pretext that they were orphans.)

Although you no doubt have your reasons for hating "the West," I don't think you want the Russian flag flying over your country, either. Putin sees himself as a latter-day czar, or leader who will reassemble the old USSR and spheres of influence.

In Putin's horoscope we see a so called "talent triangle" involving Mars, Pluto-MC, and Saturn-Neptune-Mercury. which might be kind of cool, expect that these are not planets capable of feeling ordinary human compassion. (Neptune is either the savior or the victim.)

The moon is the major seat of compassion, but Putin's moon is in an air sign, suggesting that his feelings tend to be more abstract. More to the point, Putin's moon makes no major aspects. Coupled with his moon's out-of-bounds declination, counter-parallel aggressive Mars, there's not a lot of evidence that he is capable of feeling much compassion.

Venus in Scorpio isn't helping matters, with only wide aspects to Uranus (trine) and Jupiter retrograde (opposition.)

Cap, you know the saying: be careful what you wish for.

Real test of astrology is prediction. Back when war in Ukraine started I made the prediction that Russia will win and I stand by my prediction.

You have the right to give your own analysis of Putin's chart and I won't try to disprove it. For my method of natal astrology, accurate birth time and accurate ASC and house rulers are essential so I refrained from serious analysis other than pointing out planets on fixed stars (or Mars on GC).

For the rest of your post, I cannot help but notice, that your interpretation of events is pretty much standard US propaganda.
 

Cap

Well-known member
I don't think the GC impels in any way. I have my BML conjunct the Galactic Center pointed out to me years ago by an Astrologer who simply said it was reflective of being one who would teach many. It's opposite the 11th of the masses. In some respects I guess she was right.
But impel like a planet or fixed star ray? Nah! I doubt it. It's an astronomical point. I've been wrong before however in my many decades.

Galactic center astrology is a branch of astrology that focuses on the alignment of the Sun with the center of our Milky Way Galaxy12. The Galactic Center (GC) is a supermassive black hole that represents our cosmic origins and destiny23. It is located at 26-27 degrees of Sagittarius, a sign of freedom and truth The GC is said to stimulate our sub-conscious mind and urge us to release old wounds and align with Higher Consciousness5.



Refer:


Nope, doesn't fit either! Never a head role. Always preferred being the "face in the crowd" :cool: except as an author.
I don't use BML.
I can only say the same thing what I said to Waybread. If you don't like it, by all means don't use it.
 

Nexus7

Well-known member
Sorry. Easy to miss it though, judging by the title.

What's a villainous chart look like, versus a "White hat" chart? Any definitive markers for it?
The chart I have seen given, Sun/Saturn/Neptune in 12th alongside a Gemini Moon (a former spy who uses fake news to manipulate facts), a Scorpio rising with Pluto on the MC (not afraid to use power to stay in power, and to take out any opposition where need be, alongside the nuke sabre rattling) doesn't look white hat to me, neither does the initiation of the war with Ukraine. He was as always a bully, too. Merkel recounts that he used to take his dog to negotiations with her, a dangerous-looking brute by all accounts, knowing that Merkel was afraid of dogs.

They say this isn't his true chart, though physically he seems to resemble it, the rationale being an old spy would not allow his true birth data to be made public, because of the chance of assassinations and coups being plotted on the basis of his horoscope, and so on.

But the chart I have seen around does seem very putinesque considering what we see of his actions and deeds. Remember, a fake birth chart could still be used as a horary to time many things.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Focusing on the Ukraine War, how long was its duration predicted to be using event astrology?
any observations on Putin ? :)

The initial prediction by non-astrological Russian intelligence was a quick victory, similar to the infamous, premature "Mission accomplished" photo-op statement by Bush Jr. after the Iraq War toppled the Saddam regime.

I predicted that the Russian offensive would get "bogged down" once Saturn ingressed Pisces, and I think that's an accurate description of the current state of the conflict.

and Putin?

.
 

leomoon

Well-known member
I don't use BML.
I can only say the same thing what I said to Waybread. If you don't like it, by all means don't use it.
I really appreciate your response, and imo, its what we ALL should say when someone critiques our theories. Afterall, "Astrology is an art, not a hard science", and each Astrologer is their own individual artist in the end.

I usually say something like "to each their own" essentially means the same as what you said. Capricorn minds think the same in some regards. And to be able to do this automatically without hard feelings probably has to do with a more or less exalted Uranus. Mine's in the 11th in air house, air sign and mostly trines & sextiles, the only planet above the horizon and is the handle of a bucket formation. So I too "go my own way". ;)
 

waybread

Well-known member
Everything said above is true for any fixed star. Every fixed star is moving at approx. 1 deg. per 72 years and millions of people have some planet conj. some fixed star. Do you use fixed stars? I do, and I find them to be very important factor in astrology.

By all means, don't use it.
GC was brought to my attention by another fellow astrologer who researched it and since then my own observation have just confirmed his original theories.

I guess, people from Roman Empire had similar argument. And, surprise surprise, life without Roman Empire went on just like it will go on without West or US as significant factors.


Real test of astrology is prediction. Back when war in Ukraine started I made the prediction that Russia will win and I stand by my prediction.

You have the right to give your own analysis of Putin's chart and I won't try to disprove it. For my method of natal astrology, accurate birth time and accurate ASC and house rulers are essential so I refrained from serious analysis other than pointing out planets on fixed stars (or Mars on GC).

For the rest of your post, I cannot help but notice, that your interpretation of events is pretty much standard US propaganda.
Oh, great, Cap. I could just as easily dismiss your post as standard Russian propaganda, but where does this get us?

I understand your nation's historical gratitude to Russia and resentment of NATO and UN peace-keeping forces; but it is time to consider the unvarnished facts about the current unprovoked Russian invasion of a peaceful sovereign nation as a new chapter.

The galactic center is an interesting point to consider in a horoscope-- I am just withholding final judgement on it for the moment. Putin's chart is pretty remarkable without it. I think we agree that Mars is especially relevant in his chart and is highlighted now by transits and solar arcs.

I do sometimes use fixed stars when I want to spend a lot of time with the chart. I pretty much use a narrow conjunction: never mind that many fixed stars used by astrologers are seriously off the ecliptic. We also run into a few problems with the tropical zodiac, because so many stars-in-constellations are no longer in their respective astrological signs, even though the stars' meanings often derive from those constellations. Similarly, if I want to spend a lot of time with a chart, I might look at minor aspects (harmonics) and asteroids (conjunction only.)

My motto is to look at the majors before moving on to the minors.

I don't know what is your argument about the fall of the Roman empire. You don't live in those times: you live in a highly interconnected capitalist economy that depends upon international trade, much of it generated and stabilized by nations that bother you a lot. I think you're letting some old resentments and hatred cloud your rational, analytical thinking and fact-gathering. But of course, I could be mistaken about that.
 
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