Problems with Vettius Valens... et al.

waybread

Staff member
DC80, re: your 2nd post:

Again, I think it is important to avoid a presentist interpretation of the past.

I have a lot of admiration for Otto Neugebauer, Joanne Conman's critique notwithstanding.

As a man of his era (b. 1899) with a mathematics professorship at a prestigious New England university, of course Neugebauer could not publicly embrace astrology. Academics embracing the practice of astrology (vs. its history, role in culture) even today are extremely rare (outside of the University of Wales cultural astronomy program.) But no astrology-hater is going to sift through every single ancient horoscope available, and then calculate all of the planetary positions by hand (in the days before computer programs did this,) and then conclude that ancient astrologers actually got the astronomy right.

They are not mighty in numbers, but their are/were a few astrologers who prefer the mathematical side of the discipline, not the chart interpretation. Sadly he's no longer with us, but Ed Falis, who was on the Astrodienst forum, and who was an engineer by education (at Stanford U.) was really good at the astrological mathematics, A very active publisher today is classicist Alexander Jones at NYU.

It's OK to dislike the term "parts" in preference for "lots." But both are in common usage, which will probably not change. I wonder if "parts" is a more direct translation from the Arabic, but I wouldn't know.

Just for fun (crazy, I know) I once actually calculated the Valens charts worked out by Neugebauer and Van Hoessen, and then compared them with Valens's character descriptions. One thing I learned was that Valens calculated Fortuna by sign, not by degree. I also thought Neugebauer might have been out by a day, but perhaps there was some more recent precession going on that I didn't account for.

I'm sorry you couldn't find the charts I mentioned several years ago. I'm not inclined to try to hunt them down now.

My calling this thread a Valens-Ptolemy cage match was completely tongue-in-cheek. I admire both of those ancient authors. Both tried to systematize an astrology that even 2000 years ago was a morass of disparate materials. They went about it differently; and as others have noted, it's not clear whether Valens and Ptolemy even knew one another.

Ptolemy has his share of citations. Much of what we know about Hipparchus comes from Ptolemy. Then Valens was super-critical of Petosiris, who spoke in "mystic riddles."

I don't follow your point about Valens vs. jyotish astrology, but perhaps I don't need to . My understanding ( cf. David Pingree) that a lot of Hellenistic astrology diffused to India by way of Persia, but the much older layer of lunar mansions was a Hindu contribution.

I don't see the point in calling Persian astrology "silly." My feeling is that the history of astrology is fascinating without having to make presentist condemnations about parts that bother us. I mean, speaking as a Woman Of A Certain Age, I'm bothered by a lot of the sexism written into past astrologies, but I don't see the point in insulting it.

Ptolemy did no "damage" that bothers me. If we don't like parts of his textbook, we get to ignore them For example, his material on the astrology of national character.

What the Ptolemy detractors often overlook are Ptolemy's other contributions to astrology, outside of chart interpretation. His Handy Tables were an early ephemeris. Ptolemy's Geography is a compendium of the latitude and longitude coordinates of every place in the known world. Good luck with calculating a chart by hand without an ephemeris or the known coordinates of the native's birth location.

The successful entrance of Tetrabiblos into medieval Europe was a huge reason why astrology became mainstreamed into the major (Catholic) European universities. We owe Mr. Pt something for getting astrology into the quadrivium as a required university subject.

Yes, Ptolemy made mistakes, but for Pete's sake: we're talking about the 2nd century CE.

Valens did really, really good work, but he did call his work Anthologies and it shows. For example, look up the places where he gives the thematic meanings of the houses. There are several of them in different places in the text and they're not identical.

Anyway, your vote on the winner of the Valens-Ptolemy cage match is duly noted!
 

waybread

Staff member
One reason why I don't think Ptolemy deliberately engaged in fraud was that there was an active community of scholars who critiqued each other's work. They may have been separated from one another by a century or two, but if Ptolemy had deliberately attempted to hoodwink anyone, he would have been called out by his peers.

One example of ancient scholars analyzing each other's work comes from one of the few surviving fragments from Hipparchus himself, in which he criticizes the poor astronomy in Aratus, Phaenomena, a popular poem about the constellations and weather, written in ca 275 BCE.

One has to admire Hipparchus' gracious style:
"1.1.§6-7: I proposed for myself to do this not because I desire to obtain prestige by proving others wrong (for [this] is empty and entirely mean; on the contrary, I believe that we must be grateful to all those who happen to undertake hard work on their own for the common good). But [I do this] so that … the others who are intellectually curious might not be misled in the observation of the visible phenomena in the cosmos. This is something that many have suffered, as may be expected. For the beauty of the poem lends a certain sense of trustworthiness to what it is stated in it."


[Incidentally, it was common for early authors like Aratus and Manilius to write about astrology in poetry, as the fitting type of language for celestial themes.]
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
No, he was trying to cram astrology into the Aristotelian view and he failed spectacularly but he did succeed in making a mess that we're still trying to clean up. Fraud.
Ptolemy deceived others. Other astrologers make it clear when they are quoting other astrologers. Ptolemy is quoting Petrosiris and Nechepso but he never once says that which is dishonest.

Indeed :)

Also, by the time Arabic tribes gained control of Egypt, the Middle East and Mediterranean Region was in total disarray.
Ptolemy's work was the only work the Arabs had access to.
good point

That's called an anachronism. It happens when people try to crowbar the present into Earth-of-the-past. It saddens me to report that at and around the time Valen's lived, there wasn't a Kinko's or a UPS Store or a Fedex Store anywhere around to photocopy the texts.
How did texts get replicated? They paid scribes to copy them and apparently some got paid by the page. The scribes made mistakes. It's also known that students copied texts and because they did not fully understand many of the concepts they made changes to the text to fit their understanding.

Mistakes were commonly made for those reasons

It's also know that copyists often inserted charts into texts. The chart in Rhetorius could not have been made at the time he lived or in the 1,000 years prior to that so many think he made it up as a hypothetical example since he wasn't an astrologer and didn't even know how to cast charts. The other possibility is a later copyist inserted the chart 150 years after Rhetorius died, but that still doesn't work because that chart isn't possible.
Interesting

Valens' text is disjointed and disorganized because copyists moved sections and chapters around over the centuries and we know there's a 5th century addition to the text.

good point

Valens quite clearly states when he is quoting other astrologers unlike Ptolemy.
Indeed

Even Rhetorius noted when he was quoting other astrologers.

but Ptolemy dishonestly did not note when he was quoting other astrologers

That some of the Greek is archaic is not relevant. I regret to inform you Twitter wasn't up and running so the Greeks could not send out a tweet to all the Greeks everywhere living in Greece, Turkey, Italy, Bulgaria, Romania, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Israel, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and the Kashmir Region of India to stop using archaic Greek.
because
If Valens was part and parcel of the intelligentsia, you know, the high culture, then he would have used archaic Greek.
If Valens went to school or was educated by a tutor who taught him archaic Greek because the school/tutor did not get the tweet or the memo then he would have spoken archaic Greek. Also, if Valens intended his work to be a scholarly work, then he would have used archaic Greek. To that end, you ignore everything Valens said.
and
Valens repeatedly states that his work is intended to be read by serious students of astrology. That is reason alone to use archaic Greek. Valens also expresses concerns on numerous occasions throughout the text that his work might fall into the hands of "triflers" -- what he called "unworthy" people. He also cautions readers to guard against that eventuality, meaning if you copy my text do not dumb it down for the idiots. To paraphrase Valens, a little knowledge in the hands of idiots is a dangerous thing. And that is a good reason to use archaic Greek.

Quite

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waybread

Staff member
Is there any proof that Hipparchus was an astrologer as well as an astronomer?
Not that I'm aware of, in the sense that astrology is about correlations between the heavens and human affairs. But in Hipparchus' day there wasn't such a big distinction. A lot of the point of strictly mathematical and astronomical calculations was to enable better astrology. There was such a thing as purely curiosity-driven astronomical research, but Hipparchus made use of and contributed to astronomical findings with more explicitly astrological goals, such as Babylonian records. The Babylonians didn't do horoscopic astrology, but focused on what we would call mundane astrology, from a religious perspective, using a "whole sky" method.

The actual originator/s of horoscopic astrology in the 2nd or 3rd century BCE are unknown, but some astrologers credit Hipparchus.

This article may be of interest:

Certainly there was a lot of ancient cultural astronomy in Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Greece. Although ancient authors often credited a legendary King Nechepso and scribe Petosiris, it's not clear how much of it would have entered into the more empirical astrology favored by both Valens and Ptolemy. Valens, in fact, was critical of the more mystical-religious brand of astrology that he attributed to Petosiris.

The Egyptians kept extensive ancient star clocks and calendars, and were noted for using this information in their practice of medicine.

This all gets complicated by the more widespread cultural attribution more generally to ancient Egypt as the source of ancient wisdom, which the Greeks knew long pre-dated their own civilization.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Is there any proof that Hipparchus was an astrologer as well as an astronomer?

according to Wikipedia was not an astrologer:
Hipparchus was a Greek astronomer, geographer, and mathematician
most famous for discovery of precession of the equinoxes
& is considered the greatest ancient astronomical observer
- by some, the greatest overall astronomer of antiquity
He was the first whose quantitative & accurate models
for the motion of the Sun and Moon survive.

Hipparchus certainly made use of observations accumulated over centuries :)
by Babylonians
& Meton of Athens (fifth century BC)

Timocharis, Aristyllus, Aristarchus of Samos, Eratosthenes, among others

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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
The Babylonian image for the Greek astrological sign Aries, the Ram, was a human figure they called "the Handyman".
interesting - the implication is was somehow a problem re: Vettius Valens :)
VALENS THE ANTHOLOGY
The image of the Ram is masculine, diurnal,
Depending on the placement of the houseruler
those born under the influence of Aries are independent

Domicile of Mars, exaltation of Sun, depression of Saturn
Bibliography:

Schmidt, R. The Astrological Record of the Early Greek Sages. Project Hindsight.
Valens, V. Anthologia. Translated by Mark Riley. Retrieved from

https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf

Did Hipparchus introduce tropical charts? I've read that Ptolemy was the most influential "founder" of the seasonal zodiac.
What about Valens?

interesting implication of a problem re: Valens :)


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waybread

Staff member
The Babylonian image for the Greek astrological sign Aries, the Ram, was a human figure they called "the Handyman".
David, I believe the constellation for Aries was called the "Hired Man," presumably because the sun was in Aries during the lambing season, when extra workers were required. A good book on this is Gavin White, Babylonian Star Lore.

There are some interesting connections suggesting that the eastern islands of Greece (Kos, Rhodes, and western Turkey (then a Greek province) was an early region of astrological learning. A 3rd century BCE scholar named Berossus anciently was credited with bringing astrology to Greece via Kos; and Hipparchus and Vettius Valens were probably born in western Turkey.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
David, I believe the constellation for Aries was called the "Hired Man," presumably because the sun was in Aries during the lambing season, when extra workers were required. A good book on this is Gavin White, Babylonian Star Lore. There are some interesting connections suggesting that the eastern islands of Greece (Kos, Rhodes, and western Turkey (then a Greek province) was an early region of astrological learning. A 3rd century BCE scholar named Berossus anciently was credited with bringing astrology to Greece via Kos; and Hipparchus and Vettius Valens were probably born in western Turkey.
However that doesn't create a problem with Vettius Valens :)
just because Vettius Valens simply referred to Aries as THE RAM

Schmidt, R. The Astrological Record of the Early Greek Sages. Project Hindsight.
Valens, V. Anthologia. Translated by Mark Riley. Retrieved from

https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf

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david starling

Well-known member
David, I believe the constellation for Aries was called the "Hired Man," presumably because the sun was in Aries during the lambing season, when extra workers were required. A good book on this is Gavin White, Babylonian Star Lore.

There are some interesting connections suggesting that the eastern islands of Greece (Kos, Rhodes, and western Turkey (then a Greek province) was an early region of astrological learning. A 3rd century BCE scholar named Berossus anciently was credited with bringing astrology to Greece via Kos; and Hipparchus and Vettius Valens were probably born in western Turkey.
Yes, the "Hired Man" (thanks). My real question is about the use of the tropical zodiac. There are siderealists today who refuse to accept it AT ALL. When was the Vernal Point first known as "the First Point of Aries"? Did Hipparchus call it that?

Btw, there's a lot more to the beginning of Spring than the lambing season, so the Greek use of the Ram as a symbol very likely has a deeper meaning. Same with the Scorpion, which was a reference to Egypt, for the season when scorpions swarm the banks of the Nile.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
My real question
is about the use of the tropical zodiac.
There are siderealists today who refuse to accept it AT ALL.
When was the Vernal Point first known as "the First Point of Aries"? Did Hipparchus call it that? Btw, there's a lot more to the beginning of Spring than the lambing season, so the Greek use of the Ram as a symbol very likely has a deeper meaning. Same with the Scorpion, which was a reference to Egypt, for the season when scorpions swarm the banks of the Nile.
maybe it's creating problem re: Vettius Valens :)

Schmidt, R. The Astrological Record of the Early Greek Sages. Project Hindsight.
Valens, V. Anthologia. Translated by Mark Riley. Retrieved from
https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf
.
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waybread

Staff member
Yes, the "Hired Man". My real question is about the use of the tropical zodiac. There are siderealists today who refuse to accept it AT ALL. When was the Vernal Point first known as "the First Point of Aries"? Did Hipparchus call it that?

Btw, there's a lot more to the beginning of Spring than the lambing season, so the Greek use of the Ram as a symbol very likely has a deeper meaning. Same with the Scorpion, which was a reference to Egypt, for the season when scorpions swarm the banks of the Nile.
David, I don't have an answer off the top of my head. But in ancient Greece there were different regional calendars in use, plus Babylonian and Egyptian calendars. The spring equinox was often a Big Deal, symbolizing the time of equal day- and night lengths, followed by lengthening days. Precession of the equinoxes was observed if not explained, though, because ancient temples were often aligned with the rising sun at the spring equinox; and after even a few centuries, people could see that they were getting out of alignment. (The backward slippage of precession is about 1 degree every 72 years.) So they knew there was Kind Of A Problem.

The Babylonians invented the 12 astrological signs and the 360-degree zodiac. Their calendar put the equinox at 0 Aries, which is our inheritance today. Ptolemy didn't invent the tropical zodiac, but he popularized it as a way to standardize horoscopes to be aligned with the 0 points of the cardinal signs at the solstices and equinoxes. It didn't much matter what zodiac you used until later in Antiquity when the sidereal and tropical zodiacs clearly had diverged sufficiently that astrologers had to choose one system, with westerners using the tropical, equinox-based zodiac, probably due to Ptolemy's influence.

I might mention that the idea of the first solar month as a sheep of some description took over at some ancient point in time. The constellation looks a bit like the head of a ram with its horns. We find all kinds of religious shifts around 2000 BCE, with Taurus and bull or cow gods (like those of ancient Crete) giving way to ram gods like the Egyptian Amun. In the Bible we find God referred to as the good shepherd. Interestingly, in the New Testament we find Jesus befriending fishermen, multiplying loaves and fishes, and walking on water, (as the equinox slips into Pisces). The ichthys (fish symbol) is the oldest known symbol for Christianity. Christianity seems to have gone with the tropical zodiac, however, in calling Jesus the Lamb of God.

For better of worse, Ptolemy tried to stabilize the calendar, perhaps thinking that our present disjuncture between signs and the constellations they were named for was in an extremely remote future.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
DC80, it's nice to see you back again, with your astrological expertise and obvious passion for astrology.
Indeed :)
I have recently become a moderator, and I promised our moderator-in-chief that I would not get embroiled in the kinds of controversies that I embraced back in 2011 - 2019, when this thread was last active.

okay

The position of this Forum, and of the current triumvirate of moderators, is that members are entitled to their astrological opinions.

great

So I absolutely respect your right (privilege?) on this forum to express strong astrological views, so long as they do not devolve into personal attacks, off-topic posts,


or anything else that is not allowed on this Forum.

dr. farr commented that Vettius VALENS
and Paulus Alexandrianus

influenced him the most
- he never cared much for Rhetorius the Egyptian
- as his work shows
the Beginning of the modification of Hellenistic astrology
toward the Arabic transitional era leading to medieval astrology

which is only a shadow of astrology in the Greco-Roman period :)
prior to the end of the golden age of Alexandria



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