Possible pre-Ptolemaic reasons for the Sign rulerships in Modern astrology

david starling

Well-known member
Whereas, the 5 planets ruled two each. What was the rationale?

Aside from making a very nifty mandala, that is!
 
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AppLeo

Well-known member
Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

personally, i've always thought of the sun and moon as the same planet
the sun is just the masculine version, and the moon is the feminine version

all of the other traditional planets have masculine and feminine versions of themselves
 

david starling

Well-known member
Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

personally, i've always thought of the sun and moon as the same planet
the sun is just the masculine version, and the moon is the feminine version

all of the other traditional planets have masculine and feminine versions of themselves

There's a much simpler explanation, one that doesn't involve gender.

In ancient Sumeria, the Moon was masculine, father of Inanna/Ishtar, the original version of the planet Venus. As far as recorded history goes, those were the original personas of the Moon and Venus.

In the ancient Nordic culture, the Sun was viewed as feminine.

Ptolemy didn't create the rulerships, they were already in place. He relied heavily on gender for his explanational theory, even to the point of claiming the Sun was "too masculine" to rule a feminine Sign, and the Moon, vice versa.

Why ignore the obvious? It's about their movement, compared to that of the planets:

Moon and Sun, one type of movement, Direct, so they each rule one Sign.

Planets, two types of movement, Direct and Retrograde, so they ruled two Signs each.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

The RATE of movement also mattered. Separating the categories, Direct-only first, it's Sign #4 ruled by the fast Moon, followed by #5 ruled by the Sun.Then from faster to slower ruling planet, it's Merc ruling #6, Venus #7, Mars #8, Jupiter #9, and Sat ruled #10, Sign of the winter "Solstice", which means "at a standstill".

Then, comes the term "tropic", which means " turning", changing direction and going back the other way. Saturn is where the sequence stopped, and turned back. So Saturn ruled both Signs #10 and #11. Then #12 went to Jup, #1 went to Mars, #2 went to Venus, and #3 went to Merc.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

Why choose the Sun to rule Sign #5? Because, once that's the choice, all of the others fall into place using a numbering pattern.

Aristarchus of Samos is the first Greek known to predicate a Heliocentric model of a Solar System. This concept eventually passed into the astrological component of the scientific community in Alexandria.

And, although we are based on the Planet Earth, and therefore use an Earth-centered model, that doesn't cancel out the other, Heliocentric model.

It's my belief that the Alexandrian astrologers took the obvious fact that the fiery Sun is fixed in the center of the Solar system, and applied it Geocentrically to Sign #5, Fixed-Fire.

And then, using the aforementioned numbering pattern, based on directionality and rate of movement, all the Signs got their rulers. Which works well on the intuitive level, even though it was determined by numbering pattern.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

lemme ask why sun exalts in 10th house but doesn't in Capricorn.
why? why? why?

Is that from a Traditional pattern? Because once we move on beyond Saturn, and there's an available ruler for Sign #11, that pattern would be broken.

Time for a new pattern, in accordance with the approach of the new Age.
 
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Oddity

Well-known member
Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

Joys - Mercury in 1, Moon in 3, Venus in 5, Mars in 6, Sun in 9, Jupiter in 11, Saturn in 12.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

who said that ?
sun=saturn, rules capricorn
moon=uranus, rules aquarius
7917e911b46b943b4779f414c002e8bc--astrology-stars-the-planets.jpg
 

david starling

Well-known member
Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

Joys - Mercury in 1, Moon in 3, Venus in 5, Mars in 6, Sun in 9, Jupiter in 11, Saturn in 12.

Thanks Oddity. I was hoping you'd provide the information.

Being so anchored in the Modern numbering pattern, Aries through to Pisces, 1 through 12, and connecting (NOT equating) the Sign numbers with the House numbers, it's impossible for me to discern a pattern regarding the "Joys" as listed.

Also, "Joys" is usually left out of Modern entirely. But, Saturn's enjoyment of bumming out the 12th House makes perfect sense!
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

Thanks Oddity. I was hoping you'd provide the information.

Being so anchored in the Modern numbering pattern, Aries through to Pisces, 1 through 12, and connecting (NOT equating) the Sign numbers with the House numbers, it's impossible for me to discern a pattern regarding the "Joys" as listed.

Also, "Joys" is usually left out of Modern entirely. But, Saturn's enjoyment of bumming out the 12th House makes perfect sense!
This thread is on our traditional board
Modern is not part of discussion
the two boards are mutually exclusive :smile:






.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

This thread is on our traditional board
Modern is not part of discussion
the two boards are mutually exclusive :smile:






.


Modern is derived from Traditional, and it's instructive to see what was kept (like, 12 equal Signs as named, Cardinal, Fixed, Mutable, the 4 Elements, in order, Squares, Trines, Conjunctions, etc.), and what was not kept.

In contrast, Traditional obviously didn't get any input from Modern, so this discussion has no place in the Trad Forum.

I'll ask a moderator to move it, since I somehow inadvertently put it in Trad.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

Modern is derived from Traditional, and it's instructive to see what was kept (like, 12 equal Signs as named, Cardinal, Fixed, Mutable, the 4 Elements, in order, Squares, Trines, Conjunctions, etc.), and what was not kept.

In contrast, Traditional obviously didn't get any input from Modern, so this discussion has no place in the Trad Forum.

I'll ask a moderator to move it, since I somehow inadvertently put it in Trad.
a moderator may have moved it from Modern

which makes sense
because

the thread title long predates Modern Astrology board
which dates from 1800's
i.e. Ancient astrology PREDATES 1800's
as clearly stated on the rules of the Modern board
perhaps the thread belongs on one of our general boards :smile:

neither Modern nor Traditional



.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

lemme ask why sun exalts in 10th house
but doesn't in Capricorn.
why? why? why?


Because IN ANCIENT TIMES “....The Thema Mundi :smile:
an Hellenistic Era Natural Wheel
illustrates fundamental astrological principles.
In addition, it reveals the inner geometrical elegance
that gives these fundamentals their meaning and definition.
For instance

Mars is associated with Aries and Scorpio
and to a lesser extent with Capricorn...." Douglas Noblehorse



main-qimg-2b3c17a2594088fbde991a7d13d11d00
 

Osamenor

Administrator
Staff member
Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

a moderator may have moved it from Modern

which makes sense
because

the thread title long predates Modern Astrology board

Apparently, a moderator did, but the OP informed us that he meant it to be specifically about modern astrology. I've moved it to Modern at his request.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

Apparently, a moderator did, but the OP informed us
that he meant it to be specifically about modern astrology.
I've moved it to Modern at his request.
Thanks for explaining - since the thread title

specifically asks a question regarding Ancient astrology :smile:
which clearly is not Modern
so then obviously
comment regarding Ancient astrology is invited
however
Ancient astrology is older than 1800's
and the rules of Modern board clearly instruct us
"....Modern Astrology For discussions on Modern Astrology only
. (Note: Typically, modern astrology is defined
as using techniques developed around the late 1800s by Theosophists...")




.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

Thanks for explaining - since the thread title

specifically asks a question regarding Ancient astrology :smile:
which clearly is not Modern
so then obviously
comment regarding Ancient astrology is invited
however
Ancient astrology is older than 1800's
and the rules of Modern board clearly instruct us
"....Modern Astrology For discussions on Modern Astrology only
. (Note: Typically, modern astrology is defined
as using techniques developed around the late 1800s by Theosophists...")




.


It's about the possible pre-Ptolemaic reasons for the Sign rulerships now fully accepted in Modernistic astrology, including using input from Heliocentrism, which was definitely known in ancient times.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

It's about the possible pre-Ptolemaic reasons

for the Sign rulerships now fully accepted in Modernistic astrology,

including using input from Heliocentrism,

which was definitely known in ancient times.
Interesting

pre-Ptolemaic astrologers
long predate the 1800's
the start date of Modern astrology stated on rules of this board


i.e.
Ptolemy died two thousand years ago
pre-Ptolemaic is long before the 1800's :smile:




.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Re: Why do the Moon and Sun Rule One Sign in Ancient Astrology?

Interesting

pre-Ptolemaic astrologers
long predate the 1800's
the start date of Modern astrology stated on rules of this board


i.e.
Ptolemy died two thousand years ago
pre-Ptolemaic is long before the 1800's :smile:




.


Aristarchus of Samos, and Hipparchus of Nicea, as well as unnamed astrologers included in the Alexandrian scientific community, predated Ptolemy. His theories were mostly his own, concerning astrological precepts already in existence.
 
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