Pluto, The Moon and the Devouring Mother Archetype

waybread

Staff member
Thanks, Therese. I do agree with most of what you just posted.

I don't recall Graves doing much interpretation in his book Greek Myths. Mostly he gives a run-down of what was written in Antiquity about various deities and legendary figures, with the classical sources attributed. This is what I find useful about him, because most of these sources are available in English translation. Many are now available on-line.

Ironically, the Enlightenment was a time when classical studies really took off as an academic discipline. (Back in the days when a university education required everyone to study Latin and Greek!) As ancient Greek literature, the myths were part of a liberal arts or humanities education.

There was also quite a movement in Europe to record fairy tales in the late 18th century that continued well into the 20th century. The Grimm brothers were actually scholars; and educated people were concerned that the folklore of rural areas was rapidly disappearing. This was also the time when novels were written commemorating a legendary past, such as the Arthur and Merlin stories, Ivanhoe, &c.

Clearly many ancient Greeks literally believed in Zeus! Ancient Greeks certainly had competing deities and outright religious sceptics, but it is hard otherwise to explain their temples dedicated to gods, religious festivals held in their honour, and statues or idols made of them. With the early emergence of Christianity, it is clear that some Christians were executed for refusing to pray to Graeco-Roman gods.

I suppose there is no harm in astrologers re-inventing the past or rewriting the myths for our times. So long as we are clear about the process.
 

Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
I want to ask all the people who have any major aspect between Pluto and the Moon even if it is a "positive" aspect. In her book "Aspects in Astrology" Sue Tompkins says that those who have such an aspect are often obsessed by their mother (and sometimes by the thought of being a mother) and the mother will also be obsessed by her child. Typically the mother is too protective, controlling and is can't let her children leave home. The love of the mother who have with such an aspect might be devouring and manipulative but often this is hidden. But sometimes the devouring mother might really turn into an evil witch or a vampire, a mother that drains the life out of her child. The mother that is too "caring" by constantly invading the personal space of her child and not letting him/her have any secrets and a place where the child can stay alone.
I have moon inconjunct pluto. I can relate to this. My mother was overbearing and protective, controlling when i was growing up. I also have saturn opp moon which creates some of these issues as well. I became a very private child, and it was a challenge for me to discover a sense of independence. It took quite some time to release fear when it came to my self identity (scorp rising and pluto in first.) i am never one to be imposive or agressive but i have found my worth in life and know how to do things for myself. :)

And yes, as you get older, you start to TURN into your mother, HA! how about that? huh? it's true... oh yes.. deny it all you want youngins out there but it's true!!

Just joking, somewhat. We have the power to make life our own- we can overcome any problems. Think of the good traits of your mom and work on emulating that, whatever that may be...

My mom is also very loving and caring, and when she got cancer, our relationship dynamic changed, and we became much closer, and some of those controll issues lifted for her... she still wants me close to help take care of her and help her during work.. i love her so much that i do that, and find other ways to branch out

I wouldn't call it an obsession, but i'd say that my mother has a very karmic influence on my life path. It will influence my much when she passes, whenever that may be down the road, though i can't say how without experiencing it.
 
Last edited:

Therese

Well-known member
Hi Waybread,

I am not saying the average Greek did not believe in their gods, but some reflective awareness was present in Greek culture itself. In Laws book X by Plato there is a very interesting discussion between the characters about whether gods exist, whether they exist "by nature" or "by art" or "by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them", whether they are within the soul of man (sort of Jungian archetypes) or "souls" out there, etc, etc.

Of course poor Socrates was executed because of "impiety", but only when Athens entered a state of war with the thirty tyrants, whose leader was unfortantely an ex-student of Socrates. It is generally thought that he was executed for political reasons, otherwise they would have executed him long before.

I don't like the word "Graeco-Roman". The Romans basically stole Greek mythology (and stole whatever they liked from whomever). Culturally speaking, they corrupted almost everything they touched, they were obsessed with power and manipulation. Look what they did to Christianity. First they massacred early Christians, then they saw a new opportunity in the new religion and they took it. I am not sure whether such phenomena as the Crusades or the Inquisition would be part of Christian history without the Roman influence.

And I am not an astrologer, btw, I am a small potato in astrology, just getting started with it.

Waybread, I enjoyed this discussion, thanks. And sorry, SunW, to meander away from the original topic...

T.
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
Hi,

An aspect may manifest itself in different ways. I have a less-than 2° applying aspect from my Moon to Pluto in my natal chart. I enjoy a healthy relationship with my mum. Neither is she suffocating, nor do I do see her as a witch, or anywhere even close to it. Being a Leo Asc myself (she is a Leo Sun, and used to be a bit domineering when she was younger and so was I- perhaps I even needed it a bit back then, lol), there was a bit of a power struggle between us during my teen years, or I was just another do-my-own-thing Aquarian Sun, not wanting to 'bend' (Leo rising) easily and stubborn (Cap Moon). But that was it really. Pretty mundane and a power struggle that other teens w/o a PLu-Moon aspect may also have.

In my case, I have a tendency of enjoying a bit of a foot-in-mouth relationship with most women (much less with women older than me - perhaps because I have a Cap Moon). There have also been issues of jealousy and underhandedness at workplace (even sorta lobbying against when I was to become a team leader- perhaps they saw me as a threat, or I even sent out those vibes to a few), for e.g.. I tendentially get along better with the darker sex:D.

:)AQ7
 
Last edited:

abi

Member
this is actually the case with my boyfriend and his mom. he has pluto moon and pluto sun sesqui quadrate and his parents(especially his mom) are very controlling. when she first saw us together she freaked out, she went home and cried. now she tries to control me together with him. if she cant, she makes a mess just so he can clean after her. she changes moods, she cries and once he is around her, she calms down and everything is back to normal. He is in jail now and he is not allowed to call me first. he has to call her first then its my turn :D and if the line is busy for longer than 10min she makes a big mess again because he only talked to her for say..5min. She is too controlling and possessive, if i say i love him she tells me stories about what he has done for her her entire life and etc. She has stated several times that she loves him more than she loves her daughter. i think its funny because every time i buy him something she goes out and buys him something too. lol
 
Last edited:

demetraceres

Well-known member
I would just like to ask here - considering this aspect is a part of a little child's chart - would you analyze this chart or do you have second thoughts about viewing charts of small children?
 

greybeard

Well-known member
Why is Pluto not a planet?

Pluto has been a planet for nearly 80 years, employed as such by 3 generations of astrologers. Pluto has been demonstrated to be a powerful and effective symbol.

...And...Personally, I think discussing the charts of small children with the parents is a very constructive thing to do.
 

waybread

Staff member
I will keep commenting that Pluto is not a planet and that you have to look elsewhere for the conflicts etc. :happy:

Astronomers demoted Pluto to dwarf planet status in 2006, but it seems very robust in modern western astrology. After studying astrology for about 22 years, I think it has huge interpretive value.
 

Sunny

Well-known member
"We were living happily with my little girl, I knew her perfectly. She was my little girl through and through. Then there came this punk with his tattoos and piercings and got into her head and forced himself on her, and she became like a different person, this is not my little girl anymore! She developed a different taste in everything, she says she's found herself, but i know he must have done something to her, she must be under a spell, she will wake up one day and realize that she is in hell and come back to me. As for now, I only get to see her for christmas, easter, thanksgiving and the like... it breaks my heart!"
:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: ..... Right so!

Sunny, with Moon square Pluton :tongue:

And about these interpretations about Demeter-Kore-Pluton, I'd say since Freud took the mythologie for the foundation of his theory, it becomes a fashion to interprete grec's mythology in a psychological way. But studiers of Ancient Grec ask if this will be legitimate and the answer for them is: No.:smile:
Incest, even at that time, has always been a crime - see Oedipus tyrannos.
 

Sunny

Well-known member
Oh! I see, she (my mother) troubled me :lol:, my Moon has a sextile (60°) to Pluton, not a square. For me, as Pluton is the second ruler of Scorpion, it makes people more fusional as they are already. Therefore we have perhaps theese difficulties to become separated from our mother?
 

DragnicDaelin

Well-known member
I have Moon (Taurus, 8th house) opposite Pluto (Scorpio, 2nd house) and can say now, in retrospect that my grandmother (who raised me) could be perceived as devouring in the sense of 'too much caring and protection'.

Neither of my parents were in a position to raise me, so the responsibility fell on my grandparents (father's) to do so.
I also have Sun conjunct Uranus straddling the IC in Sag. My liberal, forward thinking rebellious mind was pushed down and subjugated to the will of my gran. I was raised a generation back, being raised with the concepts and traditions of my uncles and aunts, not like my peers or cousins my own age.. Due to this, today my Uranus has completely overloaded and I strive to break conformity in every possible sense of the word.

Interesting, someone else mentioned that it is the transference of fear. Having Pluto in my 2nd house - my gran is always obsessed with my financial security and well being (She's Taurus Sun, an accountant her entire life). Consequently I took this on and my relationship with money has been an immense hurtling block for me.
 

sheerbliss

Active member
wow can identify with this i have the moon in gemini square pluto in virgo along with moon square uranus and chiron

i grew up never hearing my mum saying she love me or my brothers or sisters infact she used to say we were a burden and that she would be better off with out us she was cold and controlling boy ...did i get some licks as a child... today they would call it child abuse
 

yisca

New member
there are mothers wou hate their children , indead!

There are mothers who hate their children indeed!
I have a Moon -Pluto square, a Moon –Uranus square, a Moon-Venus square, and a Moon-Saturn trine (thanks God!)
Imagine the rest…
But, because I also have a Moon-Neptune baneful contact: no matter how disrespectful, abusive, and violent my mother was since she gave birth to me...Just until the age of 43, I could realize that she never ever loved me. I always thought she must have some sort of love for me under all that fury. Nope… she doesn’t. To realize that was painful, but liberating!
Now, I am trying to be a “nice mother” to my children... I Love them.
Don’t be afraid… I also have a Sun- Venus-ascendant- north node conjunction in Pisces, with Jupiter in Scorpio in the 8 house…
There is hope!
I believed in Love,
even in the darkest places I sow the light of Life!
and every thing happens for a reason... a good one!
 

SunW

Well-known member
I want to ask everyone for more information. We know about the relationship between a child and a mother when there is such an aspect in the horoscope. But now, tell me about the relationship between your mother and her mother. And then, what was the relationship between your grandmother (the mother of your mother) and her mother. I want to trace the problem back in the generations.
 

waybread

Staff member
I don't know how many people would have this information much past their mother/grandmother, unless they had relatively short times between generations and long-lived great-grandmothers and great-great grandmothers.

If you have genealogical information you can cast their charts (usually minus the birth times) and see what you can infer from these charts alone. Rarely if an ancestor was prominent in some way, you can find them in local histories, old newspapers, and the like.
 

SunW

Well-known member
My background: I have a Sag fifth house and my moon is there. I'm the playful, silly mom, who volunteers for everything related to my children, teaching art, scout leader, youth group leader, academic competitions, etc. I'm not the controlling, manipulating mom (like I had). I'm quick to volunteer, but that's the Sag 5th, I enjoy kids and teens, and it's the attitude "if not me, who?"

My situation: I have four daughters, one has a Pluto/moon trine and our synastry includes a Pluto (her)/moon (me) sextile and in the composite, a quintile. She's my mini-me. We look alike, we act alike, we like the same things. Next daughter, no moon/Pluto connections natally or synastry and in composite, it's a Pluto/moon semi-sextile. The youngest two daughters and I have moon (mine) conjunct Pluto (theirs) in synastry. One of them has no natal moon/Pluto connections (youngest) and in composite, we have a Pluto/moon sextile. However, the third has Pluto/moon square natally. And when I saw it, I understood. Her younger sister was born when she was still just a toddler herself. She was pushed from her babyhood early and I could see it affect her. She needed attention I couldn't always give, she needed to be carried when I had an infant in my arms. There just wasn't enough of me to around and for years, it felt like she wasn't getting nearly enough of my undivided attention. She also has had eating issues, even as a young child an emotionally tough time, like when we moved, would see her wolfing food down. Then as we settled in, her eating would return to normal. None of the other girls had this, I do and was anorexic as a teen--but I have the same square. Interestingly, our composite has the same Pluto/moon square, which really makes me wonder. She is the most sensitive, and most easily wounded of the four. But she's the kindest, too.

So, you and the third daughter have a Moon Pluto square and she has an eating problem just like you had when you were a teenager, right? Does she copy your destiny in anything else except this? Did you also miss enough mother's care when you were little?

You have a square between Pluto and the Moon in your natal chart. Tell me about your relationship with your mother. Tell me also about your mother's relationship with her mother.
 

SunW

Well-known member
In their natal charts, my grandmother's Pluto is sextile her moon.

My mother's moon does not aspect Pluto.

If I am able to get the birth information for my great grandmother, I will report back. It's my understanding though that she was very kind, loving and supportive of my grandmother.


Your mother doesn't have a Moon-Pluto aspect but does she have a Moon in Scorpio or in the 8th house? Where is her Moon?

What aspects does she have to other planets?
 

SunW

Well-known member
No 8th house moon. BUT, her moon is tightly conjunct her descendant in the 7th in Pisces. I think this aspect is a huge part of her identity. She desperately needs to be needed and tries very hard to be loved. She has to be in a relationship all the time, hopping from one to another (4 marriages and innumerable extramarital affairs). She completely immerses herself into those she loves so that there really isn't anything of her outside of them.

Her sun (H2), Venus (H3) and Merc (H3) are in Scorpio. Sun is at 0 deg, 2 min.

When I get a chance, I'll type up her aspects. I've had house guests all week, so no time for astrology. :-(


So, at first, your mother was dependant on her own mother. Then she was dependant on her boyfriends and hunbands and on you?

Can you tell me anything about your mother's early childhood? Did she miss her mother when she was a child? Was she separated from her mother?
 

Calvinsmom

Well-known member
Hi, sorry to bump an old thread but I wanted to add to it.


I have Pisces moon conjunct Chiron, opposed to my 3rd house Pluto with a 0 degree orb, and I am a cancer ascendant so it is my tightest chart aspect.
My Scorpio Neptune at the end of house four and conjunct Lillith is the apex of my T square.


My mother had electric shock treatments in the 1950's in an effort to alleviate her headaches. Her father abandoned the family before she was ever born. At 17, she worked full time and handed her paycheck completely over to her mother. Her mother was a classic "rageaholic", an angry control freak.


My mother had a form of Muchausen by Proxy syndrome, she herself was severely addicted to dangerous prescription narcotics and she was always taking me to the doctor, insisting I was ill. When I was old enough to understand that I was not sick at all, I really put up a fight insisting I was okay. Doctors will diagnose you with anything if they are forced to out of chronic inquiry.


Some of the most painful memories are of when my mom would take me somewhere after my own dad abandoned us, and she would promptly fall completely unconscious. An ambulance would be called and she would end up being released home after the effects would eventually wear off. It was terrifying, one minute she would be fine, and the next she would be in the "soma coma". I was helpless to predict or know when or where she would end up, completely unconscious and helpless to do anything about it.


When I was in 6th grade, she moved into a sober living house and I remember off and on around middle school being left alone sometimes overnight and having to do things like shop for my own groceries with money she would leave me for food. It was surreal, back in the 1970's that I was allowed to live like that. I got used to living alone and shunning people as I came to realize predatory natures and clung to my cancer ascendant habit of staying home and hiding. I failed school and I just never had much guidance as she ultimately had to go to work full time and my only sibling had become a heroin addict and was consistently in prison. When my mom was home, she often dragged me along to visit my elderly grandmother and great aunt, and then to the state mental hospital where my sibling stayed for her own drug treatment. I was bored out of my mind and eventually I would stray from the house in a misguided attempt to socialize and visit the neighborhood where I first grew up before my dad left.


I ended up having a child on my own in my early 30's and wanted desperately to give him all the nurturing I never had. I made a lot of mistakes but I also did a great job and he is very successful and happy. However, his natal chart has squares and oppositions all over his moon, and I know that moon is me and how guilty I feel for all the chaos in his young life. I took my angst and fear out on him so many times, and I go from being his doormat and atm to lashing out and overreacting from my frustration if I am pushed to my breaking point. It's astounding how accurate astrology can be if you study it long enough.
 
Top