Please read this chart - Traditionally

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
... your horoscope includes the birth date as November 2, 1755, so the first thing I'd normally do is check the Internet for any famous people born on that date in history....
I quickly learned who this person was.

Indeed was/is a famous historical person

I'm not taking any great pains to hide the identity of the native, and don't care if members here identify them or not. But I am genuinely interested to find out what the Trad folks here would make of this. So this is a learning experience for me.

okay then so here's feedback on the following :

Mars right trine Sun (out of sect in Scorpio) usually indicates high rank/leadership position.

The Traditional astrology delineation by DC80 is well on target

Sect ruler Moon angular in the 4th would elevate the rank. Fortune in opposition to the Place of Exaltation with Moon sextile in the 4th suggests she'll be more famous after she dies.

because the Data easily viewed on the natal chart image posted
clearly states she was born 2 November 1755 - approaching 300 years ago
we can safely assume she died :)

The Sun/Venus combo opposing Taurus (the 10th sign from Fortune) would elevate her rank a little more. Looks like she married up.
another good Traditional astrology observation :)

Moon in the right square to Saturn indicates more misfortune with the loss of position.

That IS what happened ultimately to the native

Jupiter in the right square to Saturn is also indicative of high rank so I have to believe this is one of the Beautiful People or one of the Elite.

Impressive Traditional delineation by DC80 - thank you

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FraterAC

Well-known member
It's good that some people here can use a browser, but I was really more interested in their Traditional astrology chops.
That's why I made no particular effort to mask the native's identity.
Anyone else care to attempt to delineate the chart, or communicate their predictive or time lord techniques?
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
It's good that some people here can use a browser,
Indeed :)

but I was really more interested in their Traditional astrology chops.
That's why I made no particular effort to mask the native's identity.
The natives identity is famed and easily found
HOWEVER
DC80 provided an impressive Traditional delineation
without knowing the natives identity
i.e.

She must have been a basket case. Mars opposition Saturn is anxiety, reversals, scandals and worse since they're in feminine signs. Moon/Jupiter usually indicates a distinguished position or rank but it's square Mars/Saturn which indicates exile/death. Factor in ruler of the 8th in the 7th and Aquarius being a violent human sign and then the Pisces Place of Death (8th sign from Fortune) with sect benefic Venus under Sun's beams and setting and non-sect benefic Jupiter in aversion to Pisces and she did not die well.
is another apposite DC80 Traditional astrology delineation
highlighted for interested traditional astrology beginners viewing this thread :)

.
 
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FraterAC

Well-known member
For instance --
Three people have mentioned annual profections, and there are three different houses put forward as appropriate profections for the date given.
Which house/planet is in force for the date given in the first post?
 

DC80

Well-known member
The individual is 37 years old, in their 38th year of life. Would that not be 2nd house profection year?
Are you using profection in this?
Also, could Fortune not be in Cancer 22, 1st house?

I wasn't sure of the age. The Greeks reckoned age using ordinal numbers so "38th year" is someone who had their 37th birthday and yes that would be the 2nd place in a profection chart.

Yes, Fortune would be in the Cancer 1st place and I wrote Pisces instead.

There's a lot of confusion over Fortune because of the enigmatic early Greek texts. A lot of the Greeks comment on that and some (like Valens) were clearly frustrated by it.

"John saw Mary driving down the street."

What the heck does that even mean? Does that mean John was walking his dog and saw Mary driving down the street or does it mean John was driving down the street and saw Mary at the ice cream truck getting a Tastee-Freeze or does it mean John was driving down the street and saw Mary driving down the street?

The ambiguity in the Greek texts is what does "reverse" actually modify? Does reverse modify "the formula" or "the projection from the ASC"?

In many of the texts there is no ambiguity and "reverse" clearly modifies the formula and the reason it does is because the significators change.

In a diurnal chart Father is Sun - Saturn and Mother is Venus - Moon. In a nocturnal chart it is Saturn who represents the Father (so Saturn - Sun) and Moon represents the Mother (so Moon - Venus) because the significators change.

But Sun and Moon never change. Whether the chart is diurnal or nocturnal Moon always represents the body and emotions and so Fortune is what happens to you which affects your body and/or evokes emotions. Sun always represents your life and your mind/psyche/actions (Mercury tells you the characteristics of the mind - smart, stupid, average, honest/lying, devious/straight-forward, morally right/criminal) and so what happens because of you.

Ptolemy who was not an astrologer and would **** his pants if he had to cast and read chart might have understood that Sun/Moon never change their significations and his solution was to use the diurnal formula all the time.

The other astrologers fall into 2 groups:
1) Reverse the formula but if the chart is nocturnal and Moon is below the horizon use the diurnal formula
2) Use the same formula but reverse the projection from the ASC when the chart is nocturnal

If you follow Group #1 then Fortune is Cancer and the 8th sign from Fortune is a the 8th place in the chart and you have the square from Sun.

Group #2 actually fits better. The distance from Moon to Sun is about 19° and that would put Fortune in the Gemini 12th place at roughly 15° or so which makes the 7th place the 8th from Fortune and like in Jyotish the 7th is a house of death. Cancer commands Capricorn and you have Mars in Cancer in opposition Saturn and Capricorn is a violent sign (and also bicorporal since it's actually the Goat-fish being half goat-half fish) and you have the sextile from Sun.

Sun is any authority figure like the government, police, soldiers (who slay so they have the authority to take a life) or anyone in an authoritative relationship like the husband in a woman's chart or the "man in one's life" or the father (in a diurnal chart) and anyone superior by rank, station or position.
 

DC80

Well-known member
I should mention nobody uses transits to natal to predict anything. There's a hierarchy of predictive methods:
1) Primary methods: There's about a dozen. You should use at least 2. In addition to using 2 (I use profections and direct Spirit/Fortune) you should also direct the Ascending Degree through the bounds
2) Secondary methods: Solar returns and secondary progressions. The Greeks typically ignored secondary progressions unless a star changed signs. A solar return can only do 3 things: confirm your prediction, show that there are delays/obstacles, or show destruction of what it is you predicted meaning just as someone is about to reach their goal they get the rug yanked out from under them.
3) Tertiary methods: Like transits which are used to clarify.

If you want to see how that works, you can look at the chart of John Lennon who has Aries rising.

To distribute from Fortune you progress Fortune which is in the 10th place at Capricorn 2°. On May 21, 1967 Fortune moves into Aquarius and starts distributing from Aquarius for the next 29 years or so.

The annual distribution starts in Aquarius. It is not 1 sign per year. The actual time is determined by the planetary period of ruler of the sign Fortune is in. So Fortune distributes from Aquarius from May 21, 1967 until November 6, 1969 when it begins distributing from Pisces. Then on November 1, 1970, Fortune beings distributing from Aries.

Fortune's yearly distribution comes from Scorpio starting April 12, 1980 and continues through July 6, 1981.

That is ominous since Mars ruling the Scorpio 8th place is in the Libra 7th place. No, Mars is not in "detriment." There's no such thing. Depending on the Greek text you read, Libra Mars is "in the exaltation of his exaltation" or "exalted in his exaltation." Mars cannot be exalted twice over and simultaneously in "detriment." That's what happens when stupid people don't understand what they read.

The monthly distribution now beings from Scorpio and it isn't one sign per month. It's also based on the periods of the stars. So Mars rules the monthly distribution via Scorpio from April 12, 1980 until May 20, 1980 when Jupiter takes over via Sagittarius.

On December 8, 1980 the monthly distribution of Fortune beings with Aries ruled by Mars in Libra co-present with Sun in Libra. No, Sun is not in "fall." Paulus and others use the term "hollow" which Robert Schmidt says we should refrain from taking it literally or metaphorically meaning no star is harmed by being in its "fall." However, Sun does rule the Leo 5th place which is the 8th place from Capricorn Fortune in the natal chart.

Since the daily sub-distribution of Fortune also beings on December 8, 1980 from Aries, that is 10 reasons to cast a solar return chart.

The steps to cast a solar return chart:
1) Cast the chart (be sure to relocate it when there's a change of residence)
2) Find Moon in the chart. In Lennon's 1980 return Moon is at Libra 19°
3) Thanks to the marvel of technology we have dynamic or "animated" charts. Step through the chart until solar return Moon at Libra 19° comes to its natal position at Aquarius 3°
4) The Moon arrives at Aquarius 3° on October 17, 1980. The Ascending Degree is now at Pisces 28°.
5) Pisces 28° is the solar return ASC. Mark that spot in the chart.

You can thank the Arabs and Persians for being totally freaking clueless.

With a Pisces solar return ASC that makes the 8th place in the solar return the Libra 8th place and guess who's coming to dinner? Solar return Fortune, Moon, Sun and Saturn.

Now we cast a transit chart for December 8, 1980. That's a nightmare. Jupiter is transiting Libra (along with Saturn) which means Jupiter is transiting the 7th place and the only thing worse than Jupiter transiting the 7th would be Sun and Jupiter transiting the 4th or the 7th. Mars transiting the 7th or 10th is very unpleasant and Mars is transiting Capricorn which means he's transiting the natal 10th and he's square Jupiter/Saturn.

The clincher is Venus transiting Scorpio conjunct chart ruler Mercury and sextile her natal self.

Remember that Virgo commands Scorpio and in the solar return Virgo Venus commands Scorpio Mercury and Mars.

The 6th is the House of Inferiors. I know it's translated as "slaves" but if the Greeks had meant "slaves" they would have used one of the three words that actually means "slave." The use of that word in its context which you can find in Timaeus, Plato and any number of Greeks including Aristotle refers to socio-economic class and an inferior is one who performs servile or menial labor whether they were free or slaves.

Since Venus is one of the significators of marriage, what can you say about Lennon's wives? Did he marry one of the Elite? Nope. Did he marry a Beautiful Person? Nope. He married a Drone and then he married one of the Extraordinary People.

Venus ruling Libra 7th in the 6th also clues you his killer would be inferior to him.

His chart is a freaking Greek tragedy.

Who is the sect benefic? Venus. Venus in the 6th is in aversion to Mars/Sun in the 7th, in aversion to the Leo Place of Death (8th from Fortune), in aversion to Moon and in aversion to the ASC.

If that wasn't bad enough, the non-sect benefic Jupiter is in aversion to the ASC and in aversion to Mars/Sun in the 7th. Mars sextiles the 5th Place of Death and retrograde Saturn squares it but retrograde Jupiter cannot overcome the damage they do.

That also proves there's no such thing as a quincunx or semi-sextile because if there was, Lennon would be alive. Well, he still would have been shot but he would have survived and lived another 10, 20 or 30 years because when we follow the correct technique and switch over to Porphyry Houses we find Jupiter in the 1st and Venus in the 5th so they have those qualitative powers. Jupiter being retrograde cannot protect but he could mitigate.

Also of note, Fortune started its monthly and daily distribution from Aries on December 8, 1980 at exactly 6:30 pm. Lennon was shot and killed at 4:30 pm.

Do we rectify the chart? No, that would be silly. You can never be more accurate than the method you're using permits.
 

DC80

Well-known member
Now that I know this is Marie Antoinette (I'm knowledgeable in French cuisine not French history) and assuming her birth time is accurate we can look at a few things.

Sun assumes control of the period via Leo on June 23, 1780.

Venus begins ruling the year via Taurus on June 15, 1793.

The monthly sub-distribution of Fortune begins in Cancer on August 24, 1793 with Moon as ruler. This activates the Mars/Saturn opposition and remember that Cancer commands Capricorn.

The "daily" sub-distribution begins in Aquarius on October 13, 1793 at 9:30 am. "Daily" because it's based on star periods and they can rule more or less than 24 hours. The "daily" period ends October 19, 1793 at 3:30 pm

Saturn rules that period which also activates the Mars/Saturn opposition.

As best I can tell, her trial started the next day on October 14.

You can ignore everything from Rhetorius on because it's heavily corrupted and perverted thanks to the Medieval, Arabic and Persian astrologers.

Abu-Mashar and Ptolemy single-handedly destroyed astrology. The 7th place is not lawsuits and "open enemies." Abu-Mashar was too stupid to understand what he was reading and conflated electional and horary astrology with natal astrology. All enemies whether you know them or not are 12th place (just like Jyotish) and all legal actions whether they're criminal, civil or administrative are 8th place (just like Jyotish).

We cast a solar return chart:
1) Moon is at Libra 18°
2) We move Moon to it's natal position at Libra 20°
3) The Ascending Degree is now at Libra 3°
4) The solar return ASC is Libra with solar return Mars in the Virgo 12th (trine Taurus Saturn in the solar return 8th place) and Virgo Mars in the solar return commands Scorpio Sun in the solar return 2nd opposition retrograde Saturn in the 8th.

That puts solar return Moon in the natal 4th place activating the Mars/Moon/Saturn t-square (and it is a real t-square).

Your transit chart has Sun transiting the 4th place which is just terrible and Sun is the "killing star" here since it is with Moon and square natal Mars/Saturn and trines the 8th place.

I probably shouldn't tell people to profect the ASC because in practice I don't. I profect the relevant significator so if I was looking for marriage the ASC is the last thing I'd use. I'd use Venus, the Lot of Marriage and the ruler of Marriage. I print the chart and draw their positions to see how they stack up against each other and against the stars in the natal chart. I'd also be looking at the directed ASC because if it's in the bounds of Venus or the ruler of Marriage or the 7th place then I'd direct Fortune to see the annual/monthly distributions and then cast a solar return,
 

FraterAC

Well-known member
Now that I know this is Marie Antoinette (I'm knowledgeable in French cuisine not French history) and assuming her birth time is accurate we can look at a few things.

Sun assumes control of the period via Leo on June 23, 1780.

Venus begins ruling the year via Taurus on June 15, 1793.

The monthly sub-distribution of Fortune begins in Cancer on August 24, 1793 with Moon as ruler. This activates the Mars/Saturn opposition and remember that Cancer commands Capricorn.

The "daily" sub-distribution begins in Aquarius on October 13, 1793 at 9:30 am. "Daily" because it's based on star periods and they can rule more or less than 24 hours. The "daily" period ends October 19, 1793 at 3:30 pm

Saturn rules that period which also activates the Mars/Saturn opposition.

As best I can tell, her trial started the next day on October 14.

You can ignore everything from Rhetorius on because it's heavily corrupted and perverted thanks to the Medieval, Arabic and Persian astrologers.

Abu-Mashar and Ptolemy single-handedly destroyed astrology. The 7th place is not lawsuits and "open enemies." Abu-Mashar was too stupid to understand what he was reading and conflated electional and horary astrology with natal astrology. All enemies whether you know them or not are 12th place (just like Jyotish) and all legal actions whether they're criminal, civil or administrative are 8th place (just like Jyotish).

We cast a solar return chart:
1) Moon is at Libra 18°
2) We move Moon to it's natal position at Libra 20°
3) The Ascending Degree is now at Libra 3°
4) The solar return ASC is Libra with solar return Mars in the Virgo 12th (trine Taurus Saturn in the solar return 8th place) and Virgo Mars in the solar return commands Scorpio Sun in the solar return 2nd opposition retrograde Saturn in the 8th.

That puts solar return Moon in the natal 4th place activating the Mars/Moon/Saturn t-square (and it is a real t-square).

Your transit chart has Sun transiting the 4th place which is just terrible and Sun is the "killing star" here since it is with Moon and square natal Mars/Saturn and trines the 8th place.

I probably shouldn't tell people to profect the ASC because in practice I don't. I profect the relevant significator so if I was looking for marriage the ASC is the last thing I'd use. I'd use Venus, the Lot of Marriage and the ruler of Marriage. I print the chart and draw their positions to see how they stack up against each other and against the stars in the natal chart. I'd also be looking at the directed ASC because if it's in the bounds of Venus or the ruler of Marriage or the 7th place then I'd direct Fortune to see the annual/monthly distributions and then cast a solar return,
You may be interested in the postings on the solar return here
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Now that I know this is Marie Antoinette (I'm knowledgeable in French cuisine not French history) and assuming her birth time is accurate we can look at a few things.
The top Rodden rating for any TOB is AA :)
Marie Antoinette Chart TOB has a RODDEN RATING of only A i.e. "..Data as quoted by the person
kin, friend, or associate.

These data all come from someone's memory,
family legend
or
hearsay.."


Sun assumes control of the period via Leo on June 23, 1780.

Venus begins ruling the year via Taurus on June 15, 1793.

The monthly sub-distribution of Fortune begins in Cancer on August 24, 1793 with Moon as ruler. This activates the Mars/Saturn opposition and remember that Cancer commands Capricorn.

The "daily" sub-distribution begins in Aquarius on October 13, 1793 at 9:30 am. "Daily" because it's based on star periods and they can rule more or less than 24 hours. The "daily" period ends October 19, 1793 at 3:30 pm

Saturn rules that period which also activates the Mars/Saturn opposition.

As best I can tell, her trial started the next day on October 14.

You can ignore everything from Rhetorius on because it's heavily corrupted and perverted thanks to the Medieval, Arabic and Persian astrologers.

Abu-Mashar and Ptolemy single-handedly destroyed astrology. The 7th place is not lawsuits and "open enemies." Abu-Mashar was too stupid to understand what he was reading and conflated electional and horary astrology with natal astrology. All enemies whether you know them or not are 12th place (just like Jyotish) and all legal actions whether they're criminal, civil or administrative are 8th place (just like Jyotish).

We cast a solar return chart:
1) Moon is at Libra 18°
2) We move Moon to it's natal position at Libra 20°
3) The Ascending Degree is now at Libra 3°
4) The solar return ASC is Libra with solar return Mars in the Virgo 12th (trine Taurus Saturn in the solar return 8th place) and Virgo Mars in the solar return commands Scorpio Sun in the solar return 2nd opposition retrograde Saturn in the 8th.

That puts solar return Moon in the natal 4th place activating the Mars/Moon/Saturn t-square (and it is a real t-square).

Your transit chart has Sun transiting the 4th place which is just terrible and Sun is the "killing star" here since it is with Moon and square natal Mars/Saturn and trines the 8th place.

I probably shouldn't tell people to profect the ASC because in practice I don't. I profect the relevant significator so if I was looking for marriage the ASC is the last thing I'd use. I'd use Venus, the Lot of Marriage and the ruler of Marriage. I print the chart and draw their positions to see how they stack up against each other and against the stars in the natal chart. I'd also be looking at the directed ASC because if it's in the bounds of Venus or the ruler of Marriage or the 7th place then I'd direct Fortune to see the annual/monthly distributions and then cast a solar return,
 

FraterAC

Well-known member
Data as quoted by the person
kin, friend, or associate.
These data all come from someone's memory,
family legend
or
hearsay.."
As Maria Antonia was a royal princess, more attention would have been paid to her time of birth, definitely more than would be paid to some ordinary person in the modern world.
In terms of the data being good, my calculations indicate the Midheaven is probably accurate within one degree. That's based on two different kinds of directions, plus progressed angles. Do these calculations need more precision than that?
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
HIGHLIGHT FOR BEGINNERS :)
I should mention nobody uses transits to natal to predict anything.
because
specifically
for traditional astrologers
There's a hierarchy of predictive methods:
i.e.
1) Primary methods: There's about a dozen.
You should use at least 2. In addition to using 2 (I use profections and direct Spirit/Fortune) you should also direct the Ascending Degree through the bounds
and
2) Secondary methods: Solar returns and secondary progressions. The Greeks typically ignored secondary progressions unless a star changed signs. A solar return can only do 3 things: confirm your prediction, show that there are delays/obstacles, or show destruction of what it is you predicted meaning just as someone is about to reach their goal they get the rug yanked out from under them.
and then
3) Tertiary methods: Like transits which are used to clarify.
so
beginners note:
that transits are low on the traditional hierarchy


.
 

FraterAC

Well-known member
transits are low on the traditional hierarchy
I included transits in the initial post to precisely identify the point in time I was interested in, and because I did not want to include any timing technique that would not be considered acceptable on the Traditional forum. The date of the nativity and the date o the transits were both included.
Note that although I made it as clear as it could be on the original (biwheel) chart posted, people still got the year wrong!

1719157766966.jpeg
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
As Maria Antonia was a royal princess, more attention would have been paid to her time of birth, definitely more than would be paid to some ordinary person in the modern world.

Marie Antoinette is the thread topic
In terms of the data being good, my calculations indicate the Midheaven is probably accurate within one degree. That's based on two different kinds of directions, plus progressed angles. Do these calculations need more precision than that?
There are several traditional rectification methods :)


.
 

FraterAC

Well-known member
Marie Antoinette is the thread topic
At birth the native's given name name was Maria Antonia.
She only became Marie Antoinette, the French form of her name, when she entered France in 1770 to become the Dauphine. At that time, everything Austrian, her clothes, all her possession, her entourage, her native German language, and her name, were replaced with French equivalents.
Rest assured, I know who I am talking about.
There are several traditional rectification methods
For the Trad calculations one of the members contributed , is birth accuracy within 5 minutes or so sufficient? Anyone is welcome to present their calculations to explain the techniques used.
 
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