Please read this chart - Traditionally

FraterAC

Well-known member
Would any of the Traditional astrologers on this forum care to read this chart and attached transits (outer wheel of charts)?
How would you analyze it? What predictions might you make and why?
Thanks.
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FraterAC

Well-known member
There are other formats, but I believe this is how Masha Allah would have presented the chart.

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waybread

Staff member
A blind chart reading is very difficult to do, and some professional astrologers won't attempt it. Please also realize that your horoscope includes the birth date as November 2, 1755, so the first thing I'd normally do is check the Internet for any famous people born on that date in history. A blind chart doesn't even tell us whether the native is male or female, something that would have made a big difference for a woman born in that year. A clever astrologer can also get the birth location off the MC.

I quickly learned who this person was.
 

FraterAC

Well-known member
A blind chart reading is very difficult to do, and some professional astrologers won't attempt it. Please also realize that your horoscope includes the birth date as November 2, 1755, so the first thing I'd normally do is check the Internet for any famous people born on that date in history. A blind chart doesn't even tell us whether the native is male or female, something that would have made a big difference for a woman born in that year. A clever astrologer can also get the birth location off the MC.

I quickly learned who this person was.
I'm not taking any great pains to hide the identity of the native, and don't care if members here identify them or not. But I am genuinely interested to find out what the Trad folks here would make of this.
So this is a learning experience for me.
 

waybread

Staff member
It's never a question of knowing everything about a person. I read a lot of charts for people, and I pay a lot of attention to what they write. Then I see if there are key words that match what I see in the chart. If I'm not clear on something, I will ask. For example, if a middle-aged person contemplates a career change, it's helpful to know if s/he can afford to go back to school, and what has been their education and job experience. Chart interpretation gets a lot more efficient if it's not a guessing game.

I am fond of saying that every planet, sign, and house has multiple interpretations that are nonetheless consistent with the core meanings.

A book that amply illustrates the pitfalls of blind chart readings is Rafael Nasser, Under One Sky.
 

Chrysalis

Well-known member
I'll take a shot.
They're in a 3rd house profection year activating the nodes and Mercury.
On Oct 16th 1793 Tr Venus was conjunct the natal node, Tr Mars was conjunct Tr node and square TL Mercury in the 6th.
From this, I think there were conflicts/injuries at work, or involving someone the person worked with.
Jupiter also conjunct Mercury could include a lawsuit or other legal activity. Maybe an accident occurred due to bad working conditions, so there was an attempt to sue.

I can't really look into any other techniques I use without the location.
And btw I've not got a clue who this person is, so I'm just basing my analysis on the chart.
 

Chrysalis

Well-known member
Birthplace was Vienna, current location Paris.
Wouldn't the 38th year of life be a 2nd house profection? IDK I don't use profections.
Okay, with the location I'll take a look at some other 'traditional' techniques now. Am I on the correct path with my analysis thus far, or am I way off?
38th year is 3rd house.

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FraterAC

Well-known member
Okay, with the location I'll take a look at some other 'traditional' techniques now. Am I on the correct path with my analysis thus far, or am I way off?
38th year is 3rd house.

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If the native is 37 years old, going on 38 (which would be the "38th year of life" couldn't that be 2nd house? First house in the chart is 0 year, so I'd say that means age at day 1 of the year?
So the chart would correspond to 37, 2nd house?
I'm just interested in how one would approach this, so no one needs to worry about whether they are on or off.
 

Chrysalis

Well-known member
If the native is 37 years old, going on 38 (which would be the "38th year of life" couldn't that be 2nd house? First house in the chart is 0 year, so I'd say that means age at day 1 of the year?
So the chart would correspond to 37, 2nd house?
I'm just interested in how one would approach this, so no one needs to worry about whether they are on or off.
So the native was still technically in their 2nd house protection year, but as the transit date is only a couple of weeks prior to the new profection year I'd still look at the 3rd house protection being triggered.
 
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Chrysalis

Well-known member
To help w/ the transit date analysis I've taken a look at the native's solar return. Firstly analyzing TL Mercury's position in the SR. Observing that Mercury is angular and square Pluto, I still feel that this has to do with the law—that is, having to fight their way out of a situation from being backed up against a wall of convention or the law.

Also in the nativity TL Mercury is cadent and in its detriment, so some type of interrigation, pressure or opposition.
 

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waybread

Staff member
FraterAC, given that I know who this person is and what happened to her, I will try to mentally erase much of that and just read the chart objectively according to a simplified version of traditional astrology. The same stars shine on rich and poor, so one can be born into a life of enviable privilege and still not have that life work out very well.

One thing that strikes me about this chart is a high number of debilitated planets. Mars falls in Cancer, although it picks up a little from being angular and in its own triplicity. Jupiter has no essential dignity. Venus is in detriment in Scorpio and combust the sun; although it joys in the 5th house. Mercury is in detriment and doesn't pick up much in its own face, and is in the misfortunate 6th house.

Saturn is the strongest planet in the chart, in being domiciled and angular. I view Saturn as the almuten (most essential dignity) and lord of the geniture (essential + accidental dignity) but it is problematic in the 7th house. Saturn rules all kinds of Bad Stuff; and the 7th is both the house of marriage and the house of one's open enemies. The opposition from Mars is wide, but really unhelpful, in involving both malefics. Saturn also rules the 8th house of death; although even in Hellenistic astrology, nobody read death transparently off the 8th house. It would be very easy to say that this chart shows a prominent but misfortunate marriage, along with powerful enemies.

If we look at reception, the debilitated planets come into sharper focus. As Demetra George put it, a house cusp lord wants to help out the matters of the house it rules. Whether it can do so to good effect or not depends upon its own situation. For example, with Scorpio on the cusp of the 5th house, Mars receives the sun and Venus. Mars in its fall, however, cannot offer much assistance. The moon and Jupiter in Libra are received by Venus, but Venus is in detriment and combust the sun. So no help from her. Mercury is received by Jupiter, but Jupiter has no essential dignity. Fortuna in the 12th ruled by debilitated Mercury? Unhelpful.

Knowing the native's background, I would see her as "the poor little rich girl" whose privileges could not promise her any real strength or happiness in life. Venus joys in the 5th precisely because it is the house of children and merry-making. With the native's 5th house sun-Venus, her children and amusements would be her life focus.

More later on the transits.
 

waybread

Staff member
Hi FraterAC-- now that our pre-Fathers' Day zoom meeting and dinner are over, just a bit more on MA chart.

Traditionally in a woman's chart, the sun is not her own identity or sense of self, but (if married) it symbolizes her husband. Louis XVI as the sun in MA's chart and the king of France has to be huge piece of the MA puzzle. In tables of essential dignities, the luminaries don't show up in the terms, the faces (decans) aren't worth very much, and then the luminaries rule only one sign a piece. So basically if a luminary is weakened, there aren't as many ways it can redeem itself, vs. the other planets' options. This seems especially critical for a woman whose fate was so closely aligned with her husband. Louis XVI, by all accounts, was just not up to much as a monarch, spouse, or father. As mentioned above, the ruler of MA's sun was Mars in its fall opposed by Saturn.

It might also be worthwhile looking at whether MA had planets or sensitive points at critical degrees. Critical degrees are often taken as 29 degrees of any sign, but traditionally they are based on the moon's motion through the signs, and vary by cardinal, fixed, or mutable signs; with 29 degrees suggesting a weakened senescent situation before the planet changes sign. Natally MA has one notable natal critical degree, her NN at 17 Virgo. Although the NN is traditionally benefic, critical degree carries the meaning of a crisis point; and the natal NN ruler Mercury is in detriment in the 6th house.

I might also mention that, although the 8th is the traditional house of death; the 4th house also carries that meaning as "the end of the matter."

Ok, so if we move along to MA's Huge Life Event, we see transiting Venus in its fall at 17 Virgo, conjunct her NN at a critical (crisis) degree. Venus is not that lusty Roman love goddess here, because she's in rough shape natally, and she rules MA's 4th house of endings,

Transiting sun in its fall forms a partile square with natal Saturn, the powerful natal ruler of 7th house open enemies. . The king is dead and France embarks on its Reign of Terror.

The transiting NN forms a partile square to natal Mercury.

A domiciled (strong) Jupiter in Sagittarius forms a partile square to MA's MC (public reputation) and IC. One thing that occurs to me here is that Jupiter is the planetary ruler of the judicial system, and MA's natal 9th house of the law. Further, she seems to have died with an intact religious faith, also ruled by Jupiter.

Near the end of her life, MA knew that she would never live happily ever after. Jupiter may have given her faith to face her end with some measure of dignity.
 

waybread

Staff member
As I said, I do a *simplified* form of traditional astrology. There's always more to get to, and then there are differences between Hellenistic, Medieval, Renaissance, and so on.

One other thing that may be worth mentioning is the concept of accidental malefics. Even a benefic can become malefic if it rules one of the "bad" houses: the 12th, the 6th, or the 8th. In this chart, Mercury and Jupiter become accidental malefics; and Saturn ruling the 8th is just a Bad Dude, regardless. This happenstance would tend to worsen any impact of these planets.

We can also play around more with reception. For example, the moon receives Mars in Cancer; but then Mars is in detriment in the moon's sign of Libra. So no big favor here.

There is also the concept of sect. The sun, Jupiter, and Saturn are in the day team. The moon, Venus, and Mars, are in the night team. Mercury switches sides depending upon whether it rises before or after the sun. Ideally an in-sect planet is above the horizon. So the sun loses a bit here by being out-of-sect The moon is in-sect, but loses a bit by being below the horizon. Natally all of MA's planets except Saturn are below the horizon, Saturn here is out-of-sect, but picks up a bit by being angular and the most elevated planet.

What I am noticing now, is just that there isn't a lot of good news in this chart.
 

FraterAC

Well-known member
The Critical Degrees, for any unaware of them, are
SignsCritical Degrees
Cardinal Signs0:00
"12:52
"25:43
Fixed Signs8:34
"21:26
Mutable Signs4:17
"17:09
 

waybread

Staff member
Thanks, FraterAC. I think most astrologers wouldn't mind so much about the exact minutes; but because critical degrees are, well, individual degrees; any "hits" have to be close to exact.
 

FraterAC

Well-known member
I hope some other Traditional practitioners here will attempt to interpret this chart.
Anyone?
Again, I am just interested in what a Traditional approach to it would be.
 

DC80

Well-known member
The way the Greeks reckoned time is you're 32 years old on your B-Day. At B-Day +1 you're in your 33rd year of life and 33 is what you'd look for on the profection wheel. A person being 38 years old would be in their 39th year of life which would be the 4th place in the chart.

The chart is nocturnal.
Cancer 1st: Mars diurnally placed in a nocturnal sign so 50% out of sect
Leo 2nd: Fortune
Libra 4th: Jupiter angular diurnally placed in a diurnal sign very powerful. Moon 100% of sect but angular
Scorpio 5th: Out of sect Sun and Venus and Venus is under Sun's beams and setting so basically useless
Sagittarius 6th: Mercury in bounds of Jupiter plays for Team Sun. Mercury is diurnally placed in a diurnal sign but setting so slightly damaged
Capricorn 7th: Saturn out of sect but in his night sign Capricorn and angular
Aquarius 8th: Place of Exaltation
Pisces 9th: Place of Death
Taurus 11th: 10th sign from Fortune
Gemini 12th: Place of Acquisition

Mars right trine Sun (out of sect in Scorpio) usually indicates high rank/leadership position. Sect ruler Moon angular in the 4th would elevate the rank. Fortune in opposition to the Place of Exaltation with Moon sextile in the 4th suggests she'll be more famous after she dies. The Sun/Venus combo opposing Taurus (the 10th sign from Fortune) would elevate her rank a little more. Looks like she married up.

You have 2 configurations.

Mars right square Moon/Jupiter right square Saturn opposition Mars and Mars right trine Sun/Venus right sextile Saturn opposition Mars.

She must have been a basket case. Mars opposition Saturn is anxiety, reversals, scandals and worse since they're in feminine signs. Moon/Jupiter usually indicates a distinguished position or rank but it's square Mars/Saturn which indicates exile/death. Factor in ruler of the 8th in the 7th and Aquarius being a violent human sign and then the Pisces Place of Death (8th sign from Fortune) with sect benefic Venus under Sun's beams and setting and non-sect benefic Jupiter in aversion to Pisces and she did not die well.

Mars in the right square to Jupiter causes causes extreme mental anxiety resulting in people making various errors in judgment and having difficulties and they suffer hostile accusations from their enemies which is ramped up with Jupiter angular trine the 12th place of enemies. Mars in the right square to Moon only increases the anxieties and ramps up emotional issues. Normally, Jupiter in the right square to Saturn would lessen some of that especially with Jupiter angular but not when square Mars.

Moon in the right square to Saturn indicates more misfortune with the loss of position. Jupiter in the right square to Saturn is also indicative of high rank so I have to believe this is one of the Beautiful People or one of the Elite.

Vienna is at latitude 48°N. I don't have much to work with here so I'll have to use rising times (which I normally do anyway).

Cancer rises in 36.92 which activates that whole Mars/Moon/Jupiter/Saturn configuration.

Mars is in Cancer and he doesn't rule it so we don't take his maximum period but he is in his trigon so we take his mean period.

36 years + (0.92 * 12) + 15 months = 36 years plus 11 months + 15 months = 36 years + 26 months or 38 years and 2 months.

If you want more precision you can add the mean periods of Jupiter as days (43.5 being angular and in his trigon) plus 25 days from Moon (angular but peregrine) and 57 days from Saturn (being angular and in his own sign).

That's 43.5 + 25 + 57 = 125.5 / 30 = 4.18 months so 38 years 6 months and some days is when this whole Mars right square Moon/Jupiter right square Saturn opposition Mars kicked off or comes to a head.
 

FraterAC

Well-known member
A person being 38 years old would be in their 39th year of life which would be the 4th place in the chart.
The individual is 37 years old, in their 38th year of life. Would that not be 2nd house profection year?
Are you using profection in this?
Also, could Fortune not be in Cancer 22, 1st house?
 
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