Planets Exalted/or dignified receiving hard aspects in the Natal chart

[Shining Ray]

I have a question on planets which are exalted or dignified, if the planet is supposed to be good in certain signs as it can express itself better like Mars in Aries which is dignified, what happens if it is really badly aspected how dignified is that.

I was thinking about Jeffrey Dahmers Dignified Mars in Aries which receives hard aspects from Jupiter/Pluto/Neptune (if I remember right,) how dignified is this planet now. Or does it mean in his case he could more easily express violence or assertiveness but expressed them in a controlling overeggerated evil way. (because of the planets aspecting this Mars) So Mars in Aries in his case is not really a good thing because he misused the dignified energy of Mars. Like he had Venus in Taurus which also has dignity but it is placed in the 8th house so did he use his charm in the wrong way to manipulate people and intensely charm them to come back to his apartment so he could kill them.

And if a planet is in fall like Moon in Scorpio which makes the emotions intense, secretive and creates jealous feelings..... but what if the planet receives all good aspects like trines. Would this person express their intense emotions too easily and maybe this is not a good thing either.

I have never really understood how Dignified/exalted/fall/detriment all works because of aspects to these planets.

Any help on this would be appreciated or maybe I am just not understanding this right.

 

[Shining Ray]

I looked up the meaning of Mars in Aries in a book by Kevin Burk as he focuses on classical astrology (although since reading his book, I don't agree with everything he says as he disagrees using the dobyns alphabet in astrology, I personally have found this astrological alphabet works extremely well).

Well anyway for Mars in Aries - Mars rules Aries and is extremely powerful there. Aries brings out the active, expressive, aggressive, and impulsive side of Mars. Mars in Aries is the warrior, a finely tuned, well trained soldier (Jeffrey Dahmer was in the military) Like any soldier, Mars in Aries can be extremely effective and productive, and supportive when well guided - and can be equally destructive when not kept under close supervision. The problem here, of course is that when Mars is in Aries, Mars is it's own boss the top of the chain of command,(top of the food chain too for damher) as it were. More than anything Mars wants to take action, combine it with Aries energy, the most impulsive and action oriented sign, and we have got a pretty impressive combination. Mastering the Mars in Aries energy requires discipline and training.

Individuals with Mars in Aries must be able to express their energy consistently. If they are able to take action, the bottled up energy become frustration and then anger, and when it finally does manifest (and it always does), it will become unpredictable and explosive.

So I guess from this interpretation if a planet is dignified in a sign it can be extremely strong, but it depends on the expression of the planet it could be extremely positive or extremely negative it all depends on how the person is using the energy.

I questioned this energy because Dahmer had Mercury in Gemini - Dignity and Venus in Taurus - Dignity Mars in Aries - Dignity I think he had Jupiter in fall and Saturn exalted.

I will have to study this a bit more to grasp it's meaning

 

[jagetoile]

deleted post.

 

[Shining Ray]

Hi Jag

Glad it's not just me trying to figure this out, I think since looking at dahmers chart I want to find stronger tendencies in his chart for his behavior because when you read his case on the web it is very disturbing.

I think having the Mars in Aries was giving him a strong instinct to act out his violence. This Mars falling in the 6th house - the house related to Virgo possibly brings in the precision and extremely efficient acts of violence.

It can be hard to fit this altogether because in his chart he has Mars in Aries dignified square to Jupiter in Capricorn which is in fall in the 3rd house related to Mercury which relates to reason, logic and thinking amongst other things. And then when you look to his Mercury it is dignified in the 8th house square to Pluto. (there are other aspects but I can't remember them now. )

The hard part is trying to combine all this together. And then as you said Jag taking the planets in houses into consideration where some are accidentally dignified. I will get my head round all this one day.

 

[starlink]

Hello Shiny! I think you are getting there instinctively. When a planet is dignified or exalted, it can express it's energies very well because it comes naturally. So I think, you just have to look at the "pureness" if you will, of the expression.It does not mean, that the planet shows it's "good" sides (my feeling). When this planet is in difficult or frustrated aspect, it can still show it's "bad" sides and in a dignified or exalted sign,will do that "at it's best". It the planet is very well aspected, then of course, it will show it's better sides maybe better then when it is in fall or detriment or in a sign where it is not really at home. It could well be that because of all those dignified planets he could be so strongly evil.

 

[Shining Ray]

Yes I think that is what it must be dignified planets can still express bad qualities they don't have to be positive just because the planet is dignified or exalted.

Take Mercury in Pisces which is in fall in this sign emotions can cloud over the rational thinking so Mercury cannot express itself comfortably. So Mercury in Gemini is more comfortable because Gemini lkes to communicate but afflicting planets like Saturn afflicting this planet will block the communication even if the Planet is dignified. But add a stronger emphasis either for mental stamina or mental blocks. So I supposed it is how the person uses the energy.

 

[Howl]

What an interesting thread I was about to start one similar when I found it. The conclusion I draw from this discussion so far is that a dignified planet expresses itself strongly, because it is in a "natural" sign and/or house position to do so. Aspects to that planet influence how that strong energy is expressed.

The example I have been puzzling over is that of an exalted plent, squared by it's own ruler....

Saturn in Libra (exalted) square Venus (its ruler) in Capricorn (no essential dignity/debility)

Now, Saturn square Venus is thought to be quite a potentially harsh aspect, especially for social and intimate relationships. But what of the fact that Saturn is exalted in Libra (sign of intimate relating) and ruled by Venus? Is it harder, or easier, for a planet to be in harsh aspect to it's own ruler than any other planet? For instance, I think it would be a harder aspect if the moon were making a square from Capricorn (not only would the moon be in detriment, but it is also lacks reception of Saturn by rulership)

Any thoughts? I actually have a chart with Libra Saturn square Cappie Venus, wondering, wondering

 

[Shining Ray]

My partner has Venus in Libra (dignified) conjunct Pluto in the 3rd square to Saturn in Cancer (detriment) in the 11th house. Venus trine Jupiter in Aquarius 6th house. Venus sextile Neptune in Sagittarius 5th house.

Quite a few aspects to Venus but I wouldn't know how to interpret his Venus square Saturn as far as Dignities + Detriments go.

In my book it says Venus focuses on relationships in Libra which Venus likes, Venus can express it's refined artistic energies here.

From my perspective of my partner he is exceptionally charming and this Venus in Libra in the 3rd enhances his charming ability especially conjunct Pluto (intensely, powerfully charming element to him) within his communicating style, and everyday manner. But then there is the Venus square Saturn which can bring disappointments in love, and the person does not believe they are worthy enough to love. Saturn in Cancer which has difficulty receiving nurturance and caring from others. Can bring depression and moodiness. They can cling firmly to the past and create rigid boundaries to protect loved ones.

To try and sum it up my partner feels unworthy of love and he has a lot of destructive emotions and seeks power in love. My partner craves a relationship, compulsively seeks relationships and finds it very hard to let go of a relationship when it breaks up. From childhood he did suffer from a lack of nurturance and care from his father who was abusive to him. Venus in Libra can be too accommodating and strongly desires a significant other and is very attracted to being in a relationship and to creating balance and harmony within this partnership but this strong energy being challenged and stressed which I think causes a stronger disharmony within him as he is needing a harmonious loving relationship, but he has to deal with his darker side of (Pluto) and controlling restricted emotions of (Saturn) which can lead to depression by trying to keep emotions controlled.

But I still don't know how to really interpret this aspect as far as having one planet in dignity and one planet in detriment.

For Saturn in Libra (exalted) - Understands the true nature of relationships and the true lessons of personal responsibility. Saturn is about defining relationships. Saturn in Libra must take responsibility for it's own actions, and intentions in relationships. And you are not responsible for other peoples feelings (only responsible for your own). Saturn is always ready to take and accept responsibility for it's own actions and choices, even the ones that were not as successful as one hoped. (but in my other book it say Saturn has difficulty in relating to others but it is exalted in this placement ?)

Not that this really helps in understanding the interpretation of an exalted planet.

I have no planets exalted or in dignity. Don't know about my planets in the houses whether they are placed well or not.

But the only conclusion I can come up with is that a planet in dignity/or exalted can be strong in it's energy.

AHHH I don't know I think I am confusing myself even more. Hopefully someone may be able to explain this better.

 

[starlink]

Hi Shiny, I think that you have a good basic understanding of all things involved here. The square aspect boggles your mind. Squares you could see both ways, as "extra energy put into something" and "as a difficulty to overcome a certain restraint, blockage". Sometimes a square between Saturn and Mercury can indeed block your way of expressing yourself verbally, but it can also give tremendous concentration power. Mercury will need time to digest, always, with this aspect. Now, if Mercury should be dignified or exalted, then he will be the stronger one and I believe that then the Mercurial qualities are concentrated and can be expressed well. Stubbornness could be possible of course, a bit inflexible, but not necessarily less expressive. It will be a more determined way, slowly telling someone else what he or she thinks. Is Saturn the stronger, than Mercury could indeed be intimidated and therefore more careful in expressing itself, not opening it's mouth before he or she is very sure of knowing the subject they speak about. (these people need to have diploma's etc. to feel secure enough before going public)This is at least how I have experienced the square.
Your boyfriend has Venus conjunct Pluto in 3 and you explained well what that could mean. Also Saturn in Cancer, well defined by you. He has a compulsive streak in him and expresses his love feelings for others in a strong intens way. Saturn in Cancer shows him a bit mothering towards his friends (11th),or he would like to be "mothered" by them and he could therefore want to impose his caring feelings too much upon them, s(mothering) them a bit. The aspects to the ruler of the 11th house shows how his friends relate to him and if they feel indeed a bit overpowered by him or just take him as he is because he is so charming after all. He could do so much for them that they could feel obliged to do something back (what your boyfriend deep down likes to achieve) Here, the square gives too much energy. Saturn is controling, Pluto is dominant and with Venus he could ask a lot of attention of his friends, a lot of motherly caring as it were (if you want to interprete this literally). There could be a lot of sweet talk in order to get a good response. He might not at all be aware of this. Saturn is the weaker of the two. Venus becomes very charismatic and strong with Pluto and less intimidated by Saturn (sometimes calculating and getting away with murder as they say. This is a general thing, not necessarily your friend. I need to see more of that chart in order to determine a thing like that.) But Venus-Pluto natives can wrap other people around their finger, especially with a trine and sextile. All in all I dont think that this square is a particularly difficult one to have unless it bothers others . Deception in love is more a Venus-Neptune thing. Venus-Saturn is more an inability to express love or that he did not receive a lot of love from his mother as a child, resulting in this Venus-Pluto attention asking sort of aspect. It can make him also over cautious in love relationships, not trusting before he is very sure of the other one. I hope I could clarify a few things for you, anyways, the way I see it which could be very different again from another astrologer. We all interprete according to our intuition based on the normal accepted rules of aspects between planets.

 

[Shining Ray]

Hi starlink,

Your interpretation was very accurate. Whenever he is out with friends he is very over protective of them, he has often told me that who ever he is out with socializing he will watch over them and make sure that they are alright.

Whenever he sees anyone trying to start a fight with one of his friends on a night out or a gang of men are being intimidating and trying to cause trouble, he will step in to defend his friends.

With Saturn being in the 11th and being square to Venus/Pluto what effect do you think this has for friendship, because he has had one friend who has died and another friend is in prison because he was accused of rape. My boyfriend claims his friend is innocent, but I don't know the full story because I wasn't with him at the time that this happened. Maybe he is still overly defending his friend but I don't like to say anything because I don't know the truth of what happened.

I will post his chart, but I suspect the Saturn squaring the Venus/Pluto possibly represents this friendship. Although my boyfriend hasn't seen this friend since he went in to prison, and his friend is still in there as far as I know.

Oh and him and one of his friends used to go around to different bars and swindle people out of money by playing pool games. It stopped when everyone finally caught on to what was going on and that my boyfriend was very good at the game. So yes it must be very nice to have a dignified Venus conjunct Pluto you can charm your way out of trouble.

 

[Shining Ray]

Placidus has Taurus ruling 11th. He hardly sees any of his friends anymore, he only really socializes when he goes to his snooker club now. But possibly the squares to Saturn from Venus/Pluto represent the friendships which have sort of ended quite tragically I think. He was also in a car accident with another friend as well, in which the car that he loved was destroyed (Venus/Pluto 3rd and transport inconjunct Mars perhaps). I don't know maybe I am reading too much into this.

 

[Shining Ray]

Hmm looking at the chart now do you think it could be R Jupiter in Aquarius 6th house involved in a t.square with Moon in Leo 12th and Mars in Taurus 10th. I am not sure maybe friends wouldn't be shown in the chart this way.

Doesn't my eye look creepy looking up at the chart.

 

[starlink]

Your all seeing eye sees most things very well. I was curious to see his 5th house of gambling (amongst many other things of course) and seeing the ruler in the 3rd, yeah, clear to me! how he can cheat people in the game...
I have little time at the moment but will come back to you and see what else I can see. Those accidents, the death cases as well, very Puto-Venus and Pluto Saturn. I have seen charts with Venus Pluto conjunctions in the 7th and you see often (not always of course) death of partners. Talk to you later, cheers

 

[Belgianmoonguy]

Just a thought
Saturn is now squaring his n11th house cusp...
Restriction on friends, ideals, hope, wishes for now?

n: natal

 

[starlink]

yes, Belgiummoon, it could well be that he will have to learn some lessons in relation to his friends. The 11th house also represents our hopes and ideals, and it could be that some of those Ideals could take form (Saturn) or that he will have a difficult time to realize his dreams to come true.

 

[holly]

I'd like to revisit this topic. At the beginning it was mentioned but got lost in the conversation...So what about planets in detriment having easy aspects to each other?

Do they work together in a positive way, and together become better off than they would be alone?

Or is their detriment magnified by being together?

 

[Catatonia]

Saturn in Libra (exalted) square Venus (its ruler) in Capricorn (no essential dignity/debility)

The lesser benefic squared by the greater malefic in a case of mutual reception.

Naturally, any dignified/exalted planets will serve their purpose. Anyone with Venus in Capricorn on the Ascendant may be a beautiful hopeless romantic, even if afflicted by the malefic Saturn. Considering the affliction occurs with another exalted planet, though a malefic, you'd have to A. see which planet is stronger (in this case Saturn) and B. realize that it isn't as bad a you think it is.

Mutual reception just works that way. The planets receive one another by beholding the other's sign. So, in a way, they are friends. No, they aren't best friends, but they are friends.

Let's say that someone has Mars in Aries in the 6th house (in its joy) and conjunct the Descendant. Mars is very strong in this position, being dignified in its joy and count an angle like the Descendant. Unfortunately, Mars here is afflicted by Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune. You'd think that ruins the native, but it doesn't. That's tension that the native is forced to work through given their Martian gift. They already have the drive and motivation to get through it (Mars in Aries in the 6th and conjunct the Desc.). They must realize their limits/boundaries (square Saturn), be weary of freak accidents (square Uranus), and try not to disillusion themself with fear and false hope (square Neptune).

Catatonia

 

[Humanitarian]

Hard aspects make opportunities for growth, and that dignified planet really need hard aspects to grow better even more than peregrine planets, so if dignified planets don't have hard aspects to itself, it can be lazy and be unmotivated to do anything at all. There shall be a balance of aspectarians on planets, hard or easy, on all kinds of planets, dignified, debilified, peregrine alike.