Planetary Strength

petosiris

Banned
It’s difficult to follow a set of rules, especially when the rules tend to bend depending on whose interpretation to use for delineating or inferring data. Assessing planetary strength properly, and inferring what any two points, aspects or dimensions to use is proving difficult.

I could have one potential solution for your problem that I personally adopt. If we focus on the theoretical planetary strength using all factors it might be useful to use take into account all relative positions and tables (I personally made my own using Hellenistic considerations, being dissatisfied with the medieval and renaissance tables or ones based for almutens - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=121676).

However, if one studies a topic, it would be much easier and better to focus on just few primary factors - angularity, domicile, exaltation, retrograde or direct, sect and aspects. Whether a planet is favorably placed, slightly favorably placed, average, slightly unfavorably placed or unfavorably placed can be easily glanced in a few seconds using those conditions.

And another hint, instead of trying to focus on the stars and trying to come up with potential manifestations based on the placements, I find it much easier to focus on the topic, and then investigate the planets that are related to that topic, for example the houserulers. Ptolemy mentions this difficulty in the early authors, who try to use all planets, aspects and house placements at the same time, instead of focusing on parents, siblings, occupation, marriage, travel etc. one by one as Ptolemy does in the Tetrabiblos.
 
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waybread

Staff member
Traditional astrology doesn't do psychology per se, if by that we mean the discipline founded by Freud, Jung, and their students and associates. Traditional astrology does discuss temperament, which relates to the elements: choleric (fire,) sanguine (air,) phlegmatic (water,) and melancholic (earth.) A good book on temperament is Dorian Greenbaum: Temperament: Astrology's Forgotten Key.

Traditional astrologers also wrote about what I would call character or personality traits.

GR, if you don't see yourself as particularly Martial, do you think Saturn inhibits your Mars expression?
 

petosiris

Banned
Traditional astrology doesn't do psychology per se, if by that we mean the discipline founded by Freud, Jung, and their students and associates.

Freud did not found psychology. Freud founded psychoanalysis which could be seen as part of the broad field of psychology. Generally, Wilhelm Wundt is regarded as the founder of modern psychology, for his focus on experimental psychology and for the founding of the first psychological laboratory.

However, even before him, in the 19th century there were growing number of philosophers distancing from philosophy and transitioning into psychology. A rival of Wundt, Franz Brentano considered Aristotle the founder of psychology (he explicitly talked about ''psychology'' in De Anima). Gustav Fechner was already conducting psychophysics in 1830s and he is credited with the discovery of the Weber-Fechner law.

Besides, I have read some of Freud and I don't ever find any kind of psychoanalysis in modern astrology. Perhaps the relationship with the parents are treated more psychologically, but I've never seen someone talk about a particular neurosis coming from some particular aspect, but you can correct me on that. In his ''A General Introduction to Psychoanalysis'' he warns the listener of his lectures that years of study and clinical practice are needed to become acquainted with his work.

''To be sure, this much I may presume that you do know, namely, that psychoanalysis is a method of treating nervous patients medically...
Of course I cannot predict how much psychoanalytic understanding you will gain from my lectures, but I can promise this, that by listening to them you will not learn how to undertake a psychoanalytic treatment or how to carry one to completion...
'' - https://eduardolbm.files.wordpress....roduction-to-psychoanalysis-sigmund-freud.pdf

Traditional astrology does discuss temperament, which relates to the elements: choleric (fire,) sanguine (air,) phlegmatic (water,) and melancholic (earth.) A good book on temperament is Dorian Greenbaum: Temperament: Astrology's Forgotten Key.

Traditional astrologers also wrote about what I would call character or personality traits.

They also talked about religion, intelligence, mental illness and most other topics that concern the everyday individual.
 
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GR, if you don't see yourself as particularly Martial, do you think Saturn inhibits your Mars expression?

Well, perhaps family, or local life at home could have. Perhaps primary schooling years were more inhibited. However, I know that Mars is dexterous, so overcomes Saturn in that aspect relationship.

Mercury is more my concern since it makes a harsh aspect to Saturn, and both are retrograde. Internalization between them, and with Mercury Conjunct Mars, this perhaps makes communication difficult, which tends to be somewhat apparent when it comes to talking to family, or my childhood.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Well, perhaps family, or local life at home could have.
Perhaps primary schooling years were more inhibited.
However, I know that Mars is dexterous, so
overcomes Saturn in that aspect relationship.
Classical astrologers considered diurnal movement central to their art
and called it the natural motion of heaven.
Manilius explained that as a sign rises, its gaze is directed towards :smile:
the signs that rose before it, not at those which rise after it.
Aries looks forward towards Aquarius by sextile,
Capricorn by square
and Sagittarius by trine:

'....Capricorn views Libra, whilst the Ram sees Capricorn ahead
and is in turn beheld at an equal distance by the Crab, and
the Crab is perceived by Libra's leftward stars as it follows up:
for preceding signs are reckoned as right signs.
A dexter aspect is therefore more direct.

Because the line of sight is carried by diurnal motion it has a stronger influence
than a sinister one and is more likely to produce an uncomplicated, expressive effect....'
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/dexter.html



dexdom.gif




Mercury is more my concern since it makes a harsh aspect to Saturn, and
both are retrograde.
Internalization between them, and with Mercury Conjunct Mars, this
perhaps makes communication difficult, which
ends to be somewhat apparent when it comes to talking to family, or
my childhood.
 

Rhys

Well-known member
Freud did not found psychology. Freud founded psychoanalysis which could be seen as part of the broad field of psychology. Generally, Wilhelm Wundt is regarded as the founder of modern psychology, for his focus on experimental psychology and for the founding of the first psychological laboratory.
<snip>.

And before THAT, folks would just folks would just go see their rabbi or minister or what have you for their psychological problems.

Or of course, in Hellenistic times, they would go see their local philosopher, lest we forget that psychology always was and always will be a subset of philosophy!

:)
 
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Rhys

Well-known member
No, not all. I get what you are saying, modern astrology does not try to predict events (if that is what you mean by ''topics'') as much as it does states of experience.

Why, yes! That about sums it up. What a lovely way of putting it!

Just to clarify, I was speaking narrowly about the places in my comment and was not including the planets at all. The point I was making was that in natal charts, the hour marker and first place becomes the place that is most closely associated with the native and that in a way, the first place signifies the self and the rest of the places signify things other than the self. Of course that's not the only thing the first place symbolizes, but in the context of the nativity discussion we were having, that's what I was attempting to say.

Where I say "topics", I'm usually referring to topics such as siblings, parents, home, children, slaves, sickness, marriage, death, career, friends, hope, enemies, and the like. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I correspond each place with a set of topics.

However, it is very shortsighted to say that psychology is missing from traditional astrology, or that it is limited to analysis of the rising place. In fact, descriptions of character in astrological textbooks can be compared to modern methods of personality assessment in psychology. Ptolemy discusses the quality of the soul extensively in 3.13 - 14.

Very interesting point, thanks for making it.

To tell you the truth, I use Hellenistic and traditional techniques primarily for prediction, precisely because the techniques are so powerful. I find that if I try to do character analysis using traditional techniques, I fall back into modern practice habits, but I acknowledge that this is strictly my problem at present. So again, thanks for making the above point. Don't worry, Mr P, I'll get there, eventually, but these things take time!

Best - Rhys
 

Rhys

Well-known member
Yeah, Venus deposits herself in the 12th house, a Cadent house that does not see the 1st house. Therefore, her power is limited, confined, including 7th house matters.

She is direct, free of combustion, and in her house, but I don’t know if that means anything. Unaspected, so she’s restricted to her own house, unless you count depositorship as a means of connection with other planets.

She deposits Jupiter and my Moon, so maybe affects the houses ruled by those planets. I wish Venus aspected any planet so I can better interpret this data.

It’s funny, because, Mars and Saturn are so much stronger, yet I feel my personality resonates with Venus so much more, with love being my self-undoing more than anything else.

<snip>

My dear GR

If we were in a consultation session, I would be looking at Venus in the 12th place being the ruler of the 7th place in addition to the other things you mentioned (Venus being the depositor of Jupiter in the 12th and of the Moon in the 5th, gosh we could talk about just that all night!) and I would be asking all kinds of questions concerning 7th place matters, fishing around as it were.

As was mentioned earlier by Waybread and Mr P, one can make this stuff as complicated as we would like, but ultimately it's fairly simple. The topic of the seventh place among other things is marriage and the fifth is children which implies a certain amount of sex in the mix :) and the ruler is in the 12th place which among other things signifies dangers of some kind, which seems to tie in with your comments above. Anyway, if this were a consultation, I'd be fishing around in these areas.

So does having Venus in the 12th place mean that there is no hope for you with regard to Venusian type things?

Well, I'm sure that Waybread will have a thing or two to say about that, but I believe it was Mr P who said earlier that one mustn't get discouraged, for we have our ENTIRE LIFE to work out the energies in our charts. If we are here, we are here for a purpose, and the purpose can be found by reading our astrological chart, which defines our place in the manifest world. So from where I am sitting, all having Venus in the 12th place means is that when Venus is activated by the various time lords, you will have opportunities to work on your Venusian issues, which you will do with a certain amount of intensity and energy, and as we see in your chart you have all the necessary tools at your disposal to do this.

That's my take on it, at any rate.

Kind regards

Rhys
 

petosiris

Banned
lest we forget that psychology always was and always will be a subset of philosophy

Let's not forget all universities teach them separately for a reason. Psychology in scientific journals is made using rigorous application of the scientific method which aims internal consistency (as it not changing from time to time), evidence (as in using statistical significance and ideally double-blind or laboratory tests to determine p < .05), and extreme care in the way one interprets causality versus correlations. You generally don't have that in philosophy which is more concerned with qualitative distinctions, causing parallaxes between thousands of different philosophies. But someone would say, ''the same is true of psychology with psychoanalysis, humanistic, behaviorism, cognitive, transpersonal and other schools''. I reply that those schools having different methods is clear indicator that there is some degree of uncertainty or softness of knowledge. However, most psychologists would agree with common scientific consensus, and when there is difference, such as which one therapy should one go to - psychoanalysis or CBT, as in medicine, there have been studies conducted on which one is more effective. Generally both have some effectiveness, but there is no panacea, just like in medicine. This too, is because the knowledge is not hardened as in the hard sciences.

Where I say "topics", I'm usually referring to topics such as siblings, parents, home, children, slaves, sickness, marriage, death, career, friends, hope, enemies, and the like. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I correspond each place with a set of topics.

You have lots and natural significators too. Events are not limited to the twelve houses.
 
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My dear GR

If we were in a consultation session, I would be looking at Venus in the 12th place being the ruler of the 7th place in addition to the other things you mentioned (Venus being the depositor of Jupiter in the 12th and of the Moon in the 5th, gosh we could talk about just that all night!) and I would be asking all kinds of questions concerning 7th place matters, fishing around as it were.

As was mentioned earlier by Waybread and Mr P, one can make this stuff as complicated as we would like, but ultimately it's fairly simple. The topic of the seventh place among other things is marriage and the fifth is children which implies a certain amount of sex in the mix :) and the ruler is in the 12th place which among other things signifies dangers of some kind, which seems to tie in with your comments above. Anyway, if this were a consultation, I'd be fishing around in these areas.

So does having Venus in the 12th place mean that there is no hope for you with regard to Venusian type things?

Well, I'm sure that Waybread will have a thing or two to say about that, but I believe it was Mr P who said earlier that one mustn't get discouraged, for we have our ENTIRE LIFE to work out the energies in our charts. If we are here, we are here for a purpose, and the purpose can be found by reading our astrological chart, which defines our place in the manifest world. So from where I am sitting, all having Venus in the 12th place means is that when Venus is activated by the various time lords, you will have opportunities to work on your Venusian issues, which you will do with a certain amount of intensity and energy, and as we see in your chart you have all the necessary tools at your disposal to do this.

That's my take on it, at any rate.

Kind regards

Rhys

Thank you for a quick summary on what Venus may have in store for me. I didn’t realize that it was possible to “activate” certain energies for planets when appropriate.

I suppose I’ll see what life has to offer in the future. I still have a lot of questions, but am always trying to understand how to tie it all together.
 

waybread

Staff member
Petosiris, re: your post 23.

We shouldn't hijack this thread to go off on a tangent. Just to say that many psychologists today do view Freud and Jung as laying the cornerstones for psychology; even though these men's work is not really taught in North American comprehensive universities anymore, except in historical context. Possibly the reason is because psychiatry has become increasingly pharmaceutical and medicalized, and clinical psychology is the field that deals more with the "talking cure" in the client-analyst relationship. Psychology's other roots are, of course, philosophical. Notably in the US.

There is some interest in tracing the history of psychology prior to the mid/late 19th century, but properly the modern discipline of psychology is more grounded in academia and clinical experimental methods (cf. Wundt.) (Typically called the behavioural science, today psychology is moving closer to neuroscience.)

Which brings me to modern psychological astrology championed by Liz Greene and her associates. Some of her early work is rooted in Freud; with Carl Jung pretty well dominating the field of modern psychological astrology today. Liz Greene's credentials in psychology, unfortunately were minimal. She basically got her Ph. D. in the early '70s from a now-defunct LA diploma mill. Her more recent legitimate Ph. D. from the University of Bristol is in history, not in psychology.

[Rhys, it's on the "'The Kabbalah in British Occultism 1860-1940."]

If you've not read the early books by Liz Greene, this is where you'll find a form of psychology in her discussions of her clients.]

Freud today is thankfully out the window. The teaching of Jungian psychology in North America is mostly absent from comprehensive universities and colleges, except as a historical foundation. It is taught in specialized institutes.

Petosiris, I think we're basically on the same page as to what the principal extant works of Hellenistic astrology said about character, personality, intelligence, mental illness, and so on. We've read the same books. Of course, the Hellenistic astrologers didn't understand mental illness in modern terms, but today we can certainly understand what they meant.
 

waybread

Staff member
GR, re: your finding Venus to be your primary definer.

I wonder if some of this is age-related. It's very natural for 20-somethings to be very concerned with relationships when they're not in a committed long-term relationship. The majority of "read my chart" and horary posts on this forum are about love, romance, and sex, and collectively, Venus is all over the map in these cases.

Possibly because your 12th house Venus seems like the "odd girl out" in your chart, her ability to express herself in your chart is inhibited. Because the 12th, among other things, is a place of seclusion, I wonder if she manifests as a secret love.

My feeling about astrology is to focus on the majors before considering the minors. The big facts about planets should tell the main story. There is no end to the fine detail. However, you might want to look at some of the Arabic parts to see if they offer more insight. There are several that deal with love and marriage.

http://libracentre.com/arabic_parts_chart.php
 
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waybread

Staff member
...
one mustn't get discouraged, for we have our ENTIRE LIFE to work out the energies in our charts. If we are here, we are here for a purpose, and the purpose can be found by reading our astrological chart, which defines our place in the manifest world. So from where I am sitting, all having Venus in the 12th place means is that when Venus is activated by the various time lords, you will have opportunities to work on your Venusian issues, which you will do with a certain amount of intensity and energy, and as we see in your chart you have all the necessary tools at your disposal to do this.

That's my take on it, at any rate.

Kind regards

Rhys[/QUOTE]

Rhys, this is so important.

A nativity is the moment of birth for a newborn baby, and moment 1.

Even if we're a bunch of fatalists who think the chart offers no wiggle-room, nobody would expect the baby, the adolescent, or even the young adult to have manifested his/her destiny.

Some of the Hellenistic astrological cookbook delineations in fact deal with predictions that would normally only come about for a middle aged person, like a prestigious political appointment. Or consider the prediction of a benign old age.

Just a bit of a correction to everyone if I might. Modern astrology does deal with predictions, but it tends to focus mightily on transits. A good book on this topic is Robert Hand, Planets in Transit. I think it's fair to say that the focus is more on one's evolving inner state, not so much on specific questions related to external matters, like traditional horary's more concrete concern with topics like missing objects, lawsuits, and marriage dates.
 
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waybread

Staff member
Let's not forget all universities teach them separately for a reason. Psychology in scientific journals is made using rigorous application of the scientific method which aims internal consistency (as it not changing from time to time), evidence (as in using statistical significance and ideally double-blind or laboratory tests to determine p < .05), and extreme care in the way one interprets causality versus correlations. You generally don't have that in philosophy which is more concerned with qualitative distinctions, causing parallaxes between thousands of different philosophies. But someone would say, ''the same is true of psychology with psychoanalysis, humanistic, behaviorism, cognitive, transpersonal and other schools''. I reply that those schools having different methods is clear indicator that there is some degree of uncertainty or softness of knowledge. However, most psychologists would agree with common scientific consensus, and when there is difference, such as which one therapy should one go to - psychoanalysis or CBT, as in medicine, there have been studies conducted on which one is more effective. Generally both have some effectiveness, but there is no panacea, just like in medicine. This too, is because the knowledge is not hardened as in the hard sciences.



You have lots and natural significators too. Events are not limited to the twelve houses.

Agreed. I would go further, and say that psychology in North American universities is typically under the umbrella of the social sciences, but just as some of these disciplines (like anthropology, human geography) are becoming more qualitative, psychology seems to trend more towards cognitive and neuroscience.

Philosophy generally is under the umbrella of the humanities, alongside English literature, foreign languages, and history.

I wouldn't necessarily consider the humanities to be "soft" social science, just different in their development as disciplines and methodologies. However, a lot of information that used to be under the purview of the humanities is increasingly taken over by more quantitative, even controlled experimental approaches.

GR, just as a footnote to Rhys's post. There is some thought that more dormant or latent energies in the nativity get triggered by transits. They might be a few days or degrees off exact, and then a faster-moving planet like the moon might trigger the actual event.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Thank you for a quick summary on what Venus may have in store for me.
I didn’t realize that it was possible to
“activate” certain energies for planets when appropriate.
I suppose I’ll see what life has to offer in the future.
I still have a lot of questions, but am always trying to understand how to tie it all together.
also keep in mind that
planets are activated by PROFECTION
for more detailed information find discussion on PROFECTIONS :smile:
at https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113535
 

Rhys

Well-known member
Let's not forget all universities teach them separately for a reason. Psychology in scientific journals is made using rigorous application of the scientific method which aims internal consistency (as it not changing from time to time), <snip>.

I certainly have no argument about keeping them separated. I just couldn't resist mentioning it because many of my philosopher pals at the university are complete snobs about it and LOVE pointing out how psychology is historically a branch of philosophy.

That being said...

Many of my scientist friends, and certainly virtually all of my friends who are psychiatrists, consider psychology voodoo and having no relation to science whatsoever, however much psychologists may attempt to incorporate scientific method into their courses.

As far as scientific method not being found in philosophy courses, read Descartes, or Hume, scientific method goes back to the Stoics! When philo students, at least here in France, wander into psychology courses, they marvel at how unrigorous it is compared to what one has to go through in history of philosophy. ( Hey, I'm just reporting what I hear, don't kill the messenger. My degrees are in fine arts. :)

However, the number of friends that I have with PhD's in psychology and psychiatry is about equal to the number of friends I have with PhDs in philo. I like them both, but I usually try to keep them separated. I certainly don't invite them all to the same dinner!

I especially keep the psychiatrists and psychologists apart, they HATE each other. :)

Btw, Waybread, is that new Liz Greene kabbalah book out yet? A friend of hers told me that she got a separate PhD researching that book. I think that Liz Greene collects Phds!
 

Rhys

Well-known member
Just a bit of a correction to everyone if I might. Modern astrology does deal with predictions, but it tends to focus mightily on transits. A good book on this topic is Robert Hand, Planets in Transit.

Of course it does, you are absolutely right, Waybread. Modern astrology regularly uses secondary and solar arc directions, transits, of course, and don't forget about solar returns! The Hand book is a standard text, I grew up with it. Did you know he originally wrote it for use with a computer program? I loved his book Astrological Symbols, also.

Speaking of Robert Hand and the 12th house, I remember him famously saying (back in the 70s) that planets in the twelfth house symbolize challenges that we were perhaps to young to deal with, but once dealt with, they become our greatest strengths!

I can't help it, but this quote always comes to mind when I am looking at H12 planets in a nativity. I've found that it often holds true in the charts that have passed through my hands and the lives of the associated natives.
 

waybread

Staff member
I certainly have no argument about keeping them separated. I just couldn't resist mentioning it because many of my philosopher pals at the university are complete snobs about it and LOVE pointing out how psychology is historically a branch of philosophy.

That being said..

My academic experience is mostly in the US and Canada, where psychology is a highly respected field. Psychology departments are generally much larger and better funded through research grants and student credit hours than are their poor relations in the philosophy department.

Some of my own research occasionally overlapped with a branch of applied ethics, and I do have some acquaintance with that corner of philosophy.

Many of my scientist friends, and certainly virtually all of my friends who are psychiatrists, consider psychology voodoo and having no relation to science whatsoever, however much psychologists may attempt to incorporate scientific method into their courses.

I fear your friends are mistaken.

I'm discounting specialized Jungian institutes and more New Age-y humanities programs. Take a look at any 10 or so accredited flagship state American or provincial Canadian university psychology departments on-line. Look at the tenured or tenure-track faculty research specialties and c.vs, which are usually listed under "people" or "faculty." Some of their articles may be linked or otherwise available on-line, as well.

Then for those same states and/or provinces, look at the requirements for becoming a licensed clinical psychologist. You will find a minimum of a Master's degree (many have doctorates) and many clinical hours under supervision by a senior psychologist. These are followed by a board licensing exam.

I don't know any psychiatrists, although in North America they have the reputation of being licensed to write prescriptions for medications, and largely restricting their practice to pharmaceutical treatment. The real work of consulting with clients is generally the purview of clinical psychologists.

As far as scientific method not being found in philosophy courses, read Descartes, or Hume, scientific method goes back to the Stoics! When philo students, at least here in France, wander into psychology courses, they marvel at how unrigorous it is compared to what one has to go through in history of philosophy. ( Hey, I'm just reporting what I hear, don't kill the messenger. My degrees are in fine arts. :)

Sorry, but to learn about the scientific method today, you need to talk to your other friends-- in chemistry, physics, earth sciences, and so on. Today's scientific method is highly rigorous, and is nothing like what passed for science (what I call proto-science) from Days Of Yore. I have yet to meet a philosopher with a background in experimental lab procedures, field work, or statistics.

I have no idea what passes for psychology or philosophy in France, but I am confident about what I write about the US and Canada.

However, the number of friends that I have with PhD's in psychology and psychiatry is about equal to the number of friends I have with PhDs in philo. I like them both, but I usually try to keep them separated. I certainly don't invite them all to the same dinner!

I especially keep the psychiatrists and psychologists apart, they HATE each other. :)

This is a pity. Prior to my retirement, I would have had no problem in inviting professional colleagues from both disciplines to my home. (Now I live in a remote mountain valley in western Canada.)

Btw, Waybread, is that new Liz Greene kabbalah book out yet? A friend of hers told me that she got a separate PhD researching that book. I think that Liz Greene collects Phds!

I don't know. As I posted above, Greene got a legitimate Ph. D. (from Bristol in 2010.) Prior to that, she claimed a Ph. D. from an unaccredited, short-lived diploma mill.
 

waybread

Staff member
Of course it does, you are absolutely right, Waybread. Modern astrology regularly uses secondary and solar arc directions, transits, of course, and don't forget about solar returns! The Hand book is a standard text, I grew up with it. Did you know he originally wrote it for use with a computer program? I loved his book Astrological Symbols, also.

Speaking of Robert Hand and the 12th house, I remember him famously saying (back in the 70s) that planets in the twelfth house symbolize challenges that we were perhaps to young to deal with, but once dealt with, they become our greatest strengths!

I can't help it, but this quote always comes to mind when I am looking at H12 planets in a nativity. I've found that it often holds true in the charts that have passed through my hands and the lives of the associated natives.

I began teaching myself astrology around 1990. I was very fortunate that the small city where I lived-- prior to so much astrology going on-line, had a really good new age book store. I was also fortunate that among the first astrology books I acquired were Robert Hand's cookbooks: Planets in Transit, and Planets in Youth. If I had to be content with a diet of pop schlock astrology back then, I think I would have given it up in disgust.

I especially appreciate Hand's counseling style. Astrology works, is his underlying message, but we don't have to become robotic fatalists about it. We have some ability to check our excess aggression or passion; and some ability to make the best of a tough configuration. It is a style I strive to emulate (at least on a good day.)

And just to come full circle, there is something traditional about this view. Ptolemy staunchly defended astro-determinism in Tetrabiblos, but compared astrology to medicine. If an illness didn't admit of a possible cure, there would be no point in going to the doctor. We may not have a lot of ability to mitigate a bad situation, but normally we do have some.
 
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