# Planet in ruling Duad and Decan in another sign?

#### athenian200

##### Well-known member
I've been learning a lot about these aspects recently. I'm curious about which is a stronger influence, and how/whether their influence would combine with each other.

Also wondering how a planet being in its ruling decan and duad within a sign would impact it.

For instance, suppose the Sun were in the Leo decan of Aries, and also in the Leo duad.

Or suppose Mercury were in the Virgo decan of Taurus, and also in the Virgo duad.

Finally, suppose that Venus were in the Libra decan of Gemini, and also in the Libra duad.

My own assumption is that this would act like a somewhat weaker version of having the planet within that sign, i.e. the Sun would behave as if it were in Leo, Mercury would behave as if it were in Virgo, and Venus would behave as if it were in Libra.

Is that correct? Also, how much weaker is this particular influence compared with actually having it in that sign?

#### dr. farr

##### Well-known member
My own assumption is that this would act like a somewhat weaker version of having the planet within that sign, i.e. the Sun would behave as if it were in Leo, Mercury would behave as if it were in Virgo, and Venus would behave as if it were in Libra.

Is that correct? Also, how much weaker is this particular influence compared with actually having it in that sign?

I would say your assumption is largely correct-pretty much how I've looked at this matter.
Attempting to put a quantitative "strength/weakness" evaluation upon this, however, is questionable (from my perspective)-however, in the literature just such a quantitative allocation can be found; one such table gives the following %'s:
-planet in the sign = 60%
-in decan = 25%
(the given % showing the % influence of the sign upon the expression of the planet being influenced by placement in that sign, whether entire sign, decan sign or duad sign)

Last edited:

#### Alice McDermott

##### Well-known member
I would think the planet in the duad would have a much higher effect than planet in decanate!

Look how strongly the duad rising in the sign affects the physical appearance - the difference is marked!

In addition, duads are a mini zodiac within each sign so have a strong resonance echo to the sign itself.

Alice

#### dr. farr

##### Well-known member
I would think the planet in the duad would have a much higher effect than planet in decanate!

Look how strongly the duad rising in the sign affects the physical appearance - the difference is marked!

In addition, duads are a mini zodiac within each sign so have a strong resonance echo to the sign itself.

Alice

Me too!

The table I gave in my previous post was merely an example of the % "strength" estimation methods, seen in (some) of the literature.

#### athenian200

##### Well-known member
I would say your assumption is largely correct-pretty much how I've looked at this matter.
Attempting to put a quantitative "strength/weakness" evaluation upon this, however, is questionable (from my perspective)-however, in the literature just such a quantitative allocation can be found; one such table gives the following %'s:
-planet in the sign = 60%
-in decan = 25%
(the given % showing the % influence of the sign upon the expression of the planet being influenced by placement in that sign, whether entire sign, decan sign or duad sign)

Yeah, the reason I asked was because a lot of the different sources I've read attempt to give percentages in that format (although they disagree on the percentages), so I assumed that was correct.

Would it be more appropriate to say that there are times in which a planet should be read as being in a particular sign, times when it should be read as in a decan, and times when it should be read as in a duad?

An example might be this...

The sign a planet is in has something to do with the environment the planet operates in, the decan is about the role it plays in that environment, and the duad is about the planet's actual character/nature aside from its environment and role.

That particular interpretation, which I just kind of made up... would make the sign like the planet's midheaven, the decan like its ascendant, and the duad like its sun.

I'm not saying that's how it would actually work, of course... that's just an example of how you might read the same point differently depending on what you want to determine.

Anyway, thanks for the response! Good to know I'm (generally) on the right track here.

#### Claire19

##### Well-known member
Quite honestly the duads are so weak I wouldnt even bother. You can get bogged down in minute detail. Decans are useful for rising sign characteristics, Sun and Moon but there again a minor influence only.

#### Alice McDermott

##### Well-known member
Quite honestly the duads are so weak I wouldnt even bother. You can get bogged down in minute detail. Decans are useful for rising sign characteristics, Sun and Moon but there again a minor influence only.

I completely disagree Claire19 and my disagreement is based on years and years of experience with clients where I carefully studied this very thing.

My site has several articles on the importance of duads - from strongly influencing the physical appearance on the Ascendant to the amazing connection between the Moon of the child and the Asc-Descendant or their duads of a parent in a natural birth.

You only have to study them for a short time to realise just how powerful they are in a natal chart.

Duad charts that give actual degrees are even more interesting as there is a really powerful correlation between degrees of signs and degrees of duads in t he synastry of family and relationship charts. In addition there are easily mapped connections between the chart of a Prime Minister and the chart of a country via their duads.

I am not the only one who has noticed this - on Chris Brennan's site I read that many ancient astrologers carefully calculated duad charts by hand - as I did before the computer made it easy - and found they were immensely useful. In addition, Vedic astrologers put a tremendous emphasis on duad charts in their astrology. These expert astrologers wouldn't have put such great effort into this unless it bore dividends.

I know that we each have our own take on astrological techniques because we have many different kinds of minds, but the value of duads are so visible that I am surprised that so few 'traditional' astrologers use them, especially as they are an intrinsic part of the astrology of ancient times.

Duads are part of what makes an individual - each sign of the zodiac has a mini zodiac within it and this enables people to use that major energy in different ways. For example, I am an Aquarian born in the Gemini duad of Aquarius so will express myself completely differently to someone born a few days earlier in the Taurus duad of Aquarius. This is reinforced by my mother having the Sun in Gemini. My youngest son is a Pisces born in the Aquarius duad of Pisces which is reinforced by his Aquarian Sun mother - he expresses himself quite differently to someone born a few days earlier in the Capricorn duad of Pisces.

Alice

#### JUPITERASC

##### Well-known member
I completely disagree Claire19 and my disagreement is based on years and years of experience with clients where I carefully studied this very thing......

.....I am not the only one who has noticed this - on Chris Brennan's site I read that many ancient astrologers carefully calculated duad charts by hand - as I did before the computer made it easy - and found they were immensely useful. In addition, Vedic astrologers put a tremendous emphasis on duad charts in their astrology. These expert astrologers wouldn't have put such great effort into this unless it bore dividends.

I know that we each have our own take on astrological techniques because we have many different kinds of minds,

but the value of duads are so visible

that I am surprised that so few 'traditional' astrologers use them,

especially as they are an intrinsic part of the astrology of ancient times
.
....

thinking or assuming that 'so few traditional astrologers use Duads' IS A FALLACY

because
the fallacy is based on the fact that
are simply completely unaware
that
'Duads' are also known by other names

and that's because 'Duads' are simply derived from using 'Twelve Parts/Twelfth Parts' of a sign

and

'Twelfth Parts' are also be known by many alternative names

SOME OTHER NAMES FOR THE TWELFTH PARTS TECHNIQUE ARE:

'Dodekatemoria'

'Duodecima'

or plural

'Duodecimae'

and so on

The foregoing are all various alternative names for the Twelfth Parts

IN FACT THERE IS EVEN A FREE ASTROLOGICAL SOFTWARE PROGRAM
THAT AUTOMATICALLY CALCULATES THE TWELFTH PARTS
AND DISPLAYS THEM ON A NATAL WHEEL FOR EASE OF REFERENCE

THE ASTROLOGICAL FREEWARE PROGRAM IS KNOWN AS

for those who require the information:

TWELFTH PARTS

Twelfth Parts are each sign divided into twelve parts
where every part gets 2.5 degrees.
First part is always dedicated to the actual sign
and so on

So
and then continue in sequence with
Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, and so on.

The sequence of twelfth-parts of Taurus starts with Taurus
and then continues with Gemini, Cancer, Leo, and so on.

......Duads are part of what makes an individual - each sign of the zodiac has a mini zodiac within it and this enables people to use that major energy in different ways.....

Alice

HOW TO USE A CALCULATOR TO FIND WHERE THE TWELFTH-PART OF ANY PARTICULAR PLANET IS

Let’s say a natal Moon is located at 06°15′ Scorpio.

next

multiply 6 with 12 and get 72.

next

multiply the minutes with 12 too and get 15 x 12 = 180.

Next convert the minutes to degrees by dividing 180 with 60

60 is the number of minutes in one degree

180 divided by 60 = 3.

72 + 3 = 75.

The twelfth part of this particular natal Moon then

is 75 degrees away from the beginning of Scorpio.

Important to start counting not from 6°15′ Scorpio where Moon is placed

BUT

from the beginning of the sign of Scorpio.

So the twelfth-part of this example Moon is located in 15° Capricorn.

HOWEVER

Morinus freeware software gives these twelfth-parts visually on the chart
so for those who prefer not to do these calculations
there's no need to calculate anything

And if there is no calculator or computer available:

HOW TO FIND TWELFTH PARTS APPROXIMATELY AND WITHOUT USING A CALCULATOR

If a planet is in the beginning of a sign

from 0° to 2°30′

then

the twelfth part of that planet will be in the same sign.

If from 2°30′ to 5° – in the sign next to it.

If a planet is from 5° to 7°30′

as in example with Moon shown above

then

the twelfth-part of that planet will be in the sextile sign following the sign where the planet is found.

If a planet is located from 7°30′ to 10°

the twelfth-part is in the square following.

If a planet is located from 10° to 12°30′

the twelfth-part is in the trine following.

If a planet is located from 12°30′ to 15°

it will be Disjunct

Disjunct is also known as quincunx sign from the planet.

15° to 17°30′ is easy to remember
the twelfth-part is in the sign opposite.

From 17°30′ to 20° is another Disjunct - also known as quincunx,

From 20° to 22°30′ the trine behind.

From 22°30′ to 25° the square behind.

From 25° to 27°30′ the sextile behind.

From 27°30′ till the end of sign, in the sign behind it.

MEMORIZE THIS
and you will have no problem finding the twelfth-part of any planet

at least by sign
if not by degree.

Remember the 0 – 2.30 segment
the 5 – 7.30 segment that leads to sextile in front

and

the 25 – 27.30 that leads to sextile behind.

The 15° segment leads to opposite sign

and the 10-20 segments leads to trine in front and trine behind respectively.

Once you memorize these, the intermediate twelfth parts are easily reckoned.

ALTERNATIVELY, THERE IS FREE SOFTWARE

#### Alice McDermott

##### Well-known member

thinking or assuming that 'so few traditional astrologers use Duads' IS A FALLACY

because
the fallacy is based on the fact that
are simply completely unaware 'Duads' are also known by other names

and that's because 'Duads' are simply derived from using 'Twelve Parts/Twelfth Parts' of a sign

and

'Twelfth Parts' are also be known by many alternative names

SOME OTHER NAMES FOR THE TWELFTH PARTS TECHNIQUE ARE

'Dodekatemoria'

'Duodecima'

or plural

'Duodecimae'

and so on

The foregoing are all various alternative names for the Twelfth Parts

Oh Dear JupiterAsc - of course all educated 'modern' astrologers know the various names for duads! From the posts you present you seem to have little awareness of modern astrology and modern astrological techniques, which is a real pity as you would find these very accurate. I just like calling the twelve 2.5 degree divisions within each sign 'duads' or 'dwads' rather than the longer names for the same thing that you mentioned.

In addition, I am a student of astrology - all forms of astrology - including various ancient techniques, some of which I use in my own practice and quite possibly knew of them long before you as I learned them as they were presented by Project Hindsight.

Solar Fire will fully calculate duad charts and is the only program that I know that offers this facility.

On my site I have given an easy method to calculate duad degrees by hand here: http://aliceportman.com/calculating-duad-and-dwad-charts/. This works very quickly if you have a calculator with the ability to work in units of 60 e.g. CASIO, or one can download this type of calculator on your computer. This is the method I used for years and years until Solar Fire put it into their program.

Alice

Last edited:

#### dr. farr

##### Well-known member
I still calculate the duodenaries (and decans, and monomoiria) by hand...

#### JUPITERASC

##### Well-known member
Oh Dear JupiterAsc - of course all educated 'modern' astrologers know the various names for duads! From the posts you present you seem to have little awareness of modern astrology and modern astrological techniques, which is a real pity as you would find these very accurate.

I just like calling the twelve 2.5 degree divisions within each sign 'duads' or 'dwads'

rather than the longer names for the same thing

that you mentioned.
Modern astrology then, is clearly supported on the firm foundations of ancient astrology
furthermore
the fact that modern astrologers use ancient techniques
is a testament to ancient astrological methods

and
for those who are unaware of the connection

it is important to clarify that

'Duads' is a name for 'The Twelve Parts'

and

'Dodekatemoria', 'Duodecima', 'Duodecimae','Dwads' are ALL names for The Twelve Parts

Everyone has their preferences
so 'The Twelve Parts' are called by a variety of different names
according to individual astrologers preferences

In addition, I am a student of astrology - all forms of astrology - including various ancient techniques, some of which I use in my own practice and quite possibly knew of them long before you as I learned them as they were presented by Project Hindsight.
We are all students of astrology on this site

some of which I use in my own practice and quite possibly knew of them long before you as I learned them as they were presented by Project Hindsight.

Great.

HOWEVER

Today there are newer translations of ancient texts

These were unavailable at the time Robert Schmidt, Robert Hand and Robert Zoller were translating for Project Hindsight

for example,
recent translations of ancient texts by Dr Benjamin Dykes
http://bendykes.com/tafortoday.php
Solar Fire will fully calculate duad charts and is the only program that I know that offers this facility.
I have Solar Fire
and
Kepler
however I found BOTH programs disappointing and I now use NEITHER.

INSTEAD of Solar Fire and Kepler
I now have Rumen Kolev's PORPHYRIUS MAGUS
http://www.babylonianastrology.com/...&category_id=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1

as well as

Curtis Manwaring's DELPHIC ORACLE
http://www.astrology-x-files.com/
both programs calculate DUADS = 'Dodekatemoria' = 'Duodecima' = 'Duodecimae' = 'Dwads'
which are all names for 'The Twelve Parts'

Also there is FREE software that calculates The Twelve Parts
also known as Dodekatermoria
also known as Duodeciamae
also known as Duodecima
i.e.

#### Alice McDermott

##### Well-known member
Modern astrology then, is clearly supported on the firm foundations of ancient astrology
furthermore
the fact that modern astrologers use ancient techniques
is a testament to ancient astrological methods

As far as I know -at least in Australia - everyone is aware that astrology has been practiced for a very long time and revere our astrological ancestors. Most of us are very interested in the techniques they used and the way they applied astrology in their cultures. Many of us, including me, use some of these methods.

However, over the centuries we have discovered interesting and accurate techniques that work very well and naturally, must apply astrology to our quite different worlds. For example, I live in the southern hemisphere, with seasons reversed from the Northern Hemisphere, so many of the traditional techniques based on seasons are irrelevant.

To me it seems just as foolish to discard what we have discovered over the past few centuries, which has proved very accurate in forecasting, as it is to discard knowledge gleaned in earlier centuries and different cultures.

My approach is to value all that astrology has to offer and apply what I observe is relevant in my world.

Today there are newer translations of ancient texts

Yes, most of us are aware of that. For example the Zodiacal Releasing technique is a more recent discovery. This is now available on Solar Fire v9 -as are Profections.

for example,
recent translations of ancient texts by Dr Benjamin Dykes

Thank you for that link, his books look very interesting.

Re: astrology programs; we all choose the programs that work best for our type of astrology and it is good that you have given links to those you personally like. However, as far as I know, Solar Fire is the only program that offers the calculation of duad charts.

Alice

#### JUPITERASC

##### Well-known member
As far as I know -at least in Australia - everyone is aware that astrology has been practiced for a very long time and revere our astrological ancestors. Most of us are very interested in the techniques they used and the way they applied astrology in their cultures. Many of us, including me, use some of these methods.

However, over the centuries we have discovered interesting and accurate techniques that work very well and naturally, must apply astrology to our quite different worlds. For example, I live in the southern hemisphere, with seasons reversed from the Northern Hemisphere, so many of the traditional techniques based on seasons are irrelevant
.

Obviously, not everyone lives in the Southern Hemisphere

just as

not everyone lives in the Northern Hemisphere

and therefore

discussions such as

THE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE AND ESSENTIAL DIGNITIES
are common
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1172

Then there's the ubiquitous
TROPICAL ZODIAC AND THE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE
http://tmp.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=87440&sid=884487999ed975b424c5bdaf8a98eab1
To me it seems just as foolish to discard what we have discovered over the past few centuries, which has proved very accurate in forecasting, as it is to discard knowledge gleaned in earlier centuries and different cultures.

My approach is to value all that astrology has to offer and apply what I observe is relevant in my world.

Yes, most of us are aware of that.

For example the Zodiacal Releasing technique is a more recent discovery.

This is now available on Solar Fire v9 -as are Profections.
Curtis Manwaring's software calculates Zodiacal Releasing and Profections http://www.astrology-x-files.com/

QUOTE

Delphic Oracle v 7.0 software is based upon translations of historical astrological texts from the Hellenistic era through Medieval, Renaissance and up to the early Modern era
and includes various techniques from such ancient authors as Vettius Valens, Antiochus, Hephastio, Dorotheus, Porphyry, Rhetorius, Critodemus, Firmicus Maternus, Ptolemy, Masha-Allah, Ibn Ezra, Bonatti, Regiomontanus, Lilly, Placidus and many others.

The author (Curtis Manwaring) has worked with scholars in the field such as Robert Schmidt (read Schmidt's endorsement),

Benjamin Dykes, PhD and others

to develop software that is true to the intents of the original astrologers of antiquity for the past 18 years

and was involved in the Hellenistic field from the beginning of the translation effort known as Project Hindsight.

Hank Friedman writing for the Mountain Astrologer has called Delphic Oracle "the gold standard of Traditional Astrology programs, far and away more powerful and better designed than any other software."

Rumen Kolev's PORPHYRIUS MAGUS offers Profections and more
http://www.babylonianastrology.com/i...emart&Itemid=1

'TRADITIONAL MORINUS' is FREE and offers Profections
Thank you for that link, his books look very interesting.

Re: astrology programs; we all choose the programs that work best for our type of astrology and it is good that you have given links to those you personally like. However, as far as I know, Solar Fire is the only program that offers the calculation of duad charts.

Alice
Obviously, each astrologer has their preferences,

however other member may be interested to discover for themselves
and so there are links to Rumen Kolev, Curtis Manwaring and FREE 'TRADITIONAL MORINUS'
for those seeking software that calculates DUADS = 'Dodekatemoria' = 'Duodecima' = 'Duodecimae' = 'Dwads' = TWELFTH PARTS

#### Alice McDermott

##### Well-known member
THE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE AND ESSENTIAL DIGNITIES
are common[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT] http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1172

Then there's the ubiquitous
TROPICAL ZODIAC AND THE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE
http://tmp.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=87440&sid=884487999ed975b424c5bdaf8a98eab1

Good Lord! I haven't visited SkyScript for a while so was unaware of these discussions - otherwise I would have joined in.

It seems that most people aren't aware that the Tropical Zodiac is basically the energy field of the Earth, activated by the Sun as the Earth revolves around it. The path of this revolution is called the ecliptic. From the viewpoint of the Earth it is the path of the Sun and planets through our sky, but in reality it is the path of the Earth around the Sun.

Therefore the tropical zodiac doesn't change for the hemispheres. I have written a bit about it here: http://aliceportman.com/what-is-the-difference-between-northern-and-southern-hemisphere-astrology/

Most Northern Hemisphere astrologers have the seasons and the signs firmly correlated in their minds and in their astrology, but the seasons are not the signs, just how that zodiac sign manifests in the mid latitudes of the Northern Hemisphere.

However, some northern hemisphere traditional astrological systems are purely based on seasons so you do have the anomaly of the Sun ruling the sign that is in the coldest time of the year in my land (because the Sun is in the Northern Hemisphere) and Saturn ruling the signs that are the hottest (often 40 degrees centigrade +) time of the year. All the traditional systems that are related to these anomalies need to be sorted out by southern hemisphere astrologers over the next couple of decades.

We have strayed off topic so I had better move away from this discussion on this thread, but it is a very interesting topic in its own right so I will read the 7 pages of the Skyscript thread when I can get some time.

Alice

##### Well-known member
Alas, I am generally too impatient to look at dwads, but I think they have real interpretive value.

Let's take for example, someone with the sun in Virgo. What does this tell us? A bunch of static personality traits? (Neat-freak perfectionist!) An evolutionary goal of excellence and helpfulness? Mutable earth, dual sign? Suppose, however, that this sun is in the Aries dwad. Erase the tidy secretary stereotype, because probably she's feistier than her sun sign suggests. If the sun is in the Cancer dwad, maybe the helpfulness gene predominates. And so on.

The decans originated as fixed star clusters in the ancient Egyptian calendar. Assigning a decan to a 10-degree span of the sky was probably a Greek simplification.

Of course, these all get combined with the usual chart variables, but dwads seem to lend more particular flavour or character to the basic bland sign stereotypes.

I don't know why dwads should work. They're not there up in the sky. But they seem to relate to the microcosm/macrocosm belief.

#### JUPITERASC

##### Well-known member
Good Lord! I haven't visited SkyScript for a while so was unaware of these discussions - otherwise I would have joined in
It is possible for anyone to join the discussion there at any time, including today
- interestingly, I notice that one of the posts by Mark on a thread ironically comments:
and so this is clearly a useful opportunity to provide the Australian perspective
on this very interesting topic
at
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7048&sid=1b72ecfe0412cc1653b12c8339f62856
It seems that most people aren't aware that the Tropical Zodiac is basically the energy field of the Earth, activated by the Sun as the Earth revolves around it. The path of this revolution is called the ecliptic. From the viewpoint of the Earth it is the path of the Sun and planets through our sky, but in reality it is the path of the Earth around the Sun.

Therefore the tropical zodiac doesn't change for the hemispheres. I have written a bit about it here: http://aliceportman.com/what-is-the-difference-between-northern-and-southern-hemisphere-astrology/

Most Northern Hemisphere astrologers have the seasons and the signs firmly correlated in their minds and in their astrology, but the seasons are not the signs, just how that zodiac sign manifests in the mid latitudes of the Northern Hemisphere.

However, some northern hemisphere traditional astrological systems are purely based on seasons so you do have the anomaly of the Sun ruling the sign that is in the coldest time of the year in my land (because the Sun is in the Northern Hemisphere) and Saturn ruling the signs that are the hottest (often 40 degrees centigrade +) time of the year. All the traditional systems that are related to these anomalies need to be sorted out by southern hemisphere astrologers over the next couple of decades.

We have strayed off topic so I had better move away from this discussion on this thread, but it is a very interesting topic in its own right so I will read the 7 pages of the Skyscript thread when I can get some time.

Alice

#### JUPITERASC

##### Well-known member
and that
these are ALL alternative names for 'The Twelfth Parts'

Interesting DISCUSSION OF 'The Twelfth Parts'
also known as in this particular instance as DUODECAMORION at
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7620&start=0

The discussion clarifies that DUODECAMORION is simply a mis-spelling

HOWEVER

the method under discussion is clearly DUAD = DWAD = TWELVE PARTS = DODEKATEMORIA and so on

Last edited: