Part of Organization/ Rebellion or Obedience?

[Phoenix Venus]

Last night I got one of those *crazy gut hunches* regarding the part: Asc + Pluto - Saturn. This part had previously been attributed the title "Organization". I am suggesting that this title should be looked into a bit further in regards to the theme of rebellion & obedience.​

Rebllion AND obedience? How could it be both? They have a consistent underlying principle. We CHOOSE to EITHER rebel against it or obey it. ​

IT also fits pretty darn nicely with the reverse formula, Asc + Sat - Pluto, which is currently labelled the part of repression. Repression is the result of enforcing control over something. Obedience/Rebelling is the process of relinquishing control.. (obedience is relinquishing control TO a force, and rebellion is relinquishing control FROM a force.)​

This also fits with some of the other titles that we have come up with regarding Pluto. The parts dealing with pluto and the sun involve the themes of relinquishing/enforcing of the ego... The parts dealing with pluto and venus involve the themes of relinquishing/enforcing personal desires..​

Piercethevale, you mentioned that you had a thread regarding Hillary Clinton's presidential run which spotlighted the part in question... i looked and looked but could not find it. I will have to do a little bit of research regarding all that went down during those 08 elections. ​

The question is... are one of us wrong regarding this part, or can both work interchangeably? ​

I have been running with this thought for a loooong time now: parts can possibly take on multiple meanings, depending on the planets/points involved as well as circumstances. It might be easy to categorize something on paper, but life is much more full and rich and has multiple, multiple forms of expression.. That means that technically, as long as the planets involved can be combined to fit something, they will work. ​

Combine the planets pluto and saturn. *destruction, transformation, endurance* and *time, rules & restrictions, stability, authority*........ Organization AND rebellion both seem to fit within that context... the blending of two planetary energies...​

But i realize that sometimes that sort of "it all works" idea simply isn't good enough for our boxy minds...​

However, we can look at it in a spiritual or mundane way. We know that all humans can express things in either a spiritual or mundane way. Is it possible in this instence that some sort of destruction of organization... somehow took place? That could fit with the theme of rebellion. We have to remember that none of us truly knows what goes on "behind the scenes"... out of the media...

So, that being said, any and all comments or ideas regarding this part are welcome.

 

[Phoenix Venus]

Theoretics out of the way, let's talk symbols, shall we?

Here's Yeshuas symbol @ 24 Sag:

(taken from Dane Rudhyar's "An Astrological Mandala")

"A BLUEBIRD PERCHED ON THE GATE OF A COTTAGE.
KEYNOTE: The reward which meets every effort at integrating into a social environment for those who remain true to their own selves.
The bluebird is a symbol of happiness, but also it refers to what one might call a spiritually oriented mind - to which the color blue relates, especially when a 'bird' is mentioned. A cottage is normally a part of a community, and the implication is that its inhabitant are well-adapted, either to the life of the community, or to their’ more or less isolated togetherness.
This is a fourth stage symbol, and it suggests that the essential technique for successful living is the development of a consciousness in which peace and happiness dwell. There is also a hint that GOOD FORTUNE is going to bless your life. "

Here is my symbol @ 24 Virgo:

"MARY AND HER LITTLE LAMB.
KEYNOTE: The need to keep a vibrant and pure simplicity at the core of one's being as one meets the many tests of existence.
Coming after the preceding symbols this one tells us that, though great, spectacular and resolute efforts are needed in order to achieve one's higher goals of destiny, still the essential quality as one journeys on "the Path" is a pure, spontaneous, fresh and nonviolent approach to all encounters. This of course is Jesus' entreaty to his disciples – that they should be like "little children." Without such a deep, heartfelt simplicity the seeker after spiritual experiences or Initiation is bound to find himself glamorized by his own successes, and to see his ego feeding on the drama of struggle and victory.
This is the fourth stage of the thirty-fifth five-fold sequence and it presents us with a subtle hint of technique. Beyond individual prowess and social eminence, the individual whose innocence is fixed upon spiritual realization should genuinely radiate INNOCENCE. "​

 

[Phoenix Venus]

The USA's part of Asc + Pluto - Saturn is conjunct the part of Commerce......... i think it makes sense.

 

[piercethevale]

It could be something other than organization. The one I have for Hillary's chart is conj. Her M.C. and Saturn conj. it during the summer of '07 when it is said that 'Her organization, for President, went through some turmoil and fell apart.

Here's a link to the other website at actastrology.com where I post as David Mastrogiovanni and my thread on this affair with Hillary.
http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=147


btw...P.V., I'm sitting in a hotel room in Truckee, Calif. and staying the night. Hopefully I be able to find a new place to reside tomorrow... probably should've checked my Astrological aspects beforehand...but things being as they are... and for the fact I get tired of basing everything I do on the aspects... I taking a blind shot at it... needed to get away anyways...wish me luck!

 

[Phoenix Venus]

Hey ptv. letting lifes current sweep you up doesn't seem like a bad thing. you know, seven years of doing astrology and i had never planned based on transits. just never felt the urge to. guess its fault of my own lol. knowing what's hitting my parts though does serm to help.

i was really convinced at myself regarding this thread for a while. who knows... ill let it sink in some more...

for educational purpose, hope you don't mind i looked up your part. the darndest thing, it happens to be the same symbol as that 15.15 virgo that i mentioned that is my part of peril and contentment of the soul (also part of sons..)

Hmmm...

the symbol is about kids staring at an orangutang.. the keyword is "karmic confrontation"

 

[piercethevale]

Hey ptv. letting lifes current sweep you up doesn't seem like a bad thing. you know, seven years of doing astrology and i had never planned based on transits. just never felt the urge to. guess its fault of my own lol. knowing what's hitting my parts though does serm to help.

i was really convinced at myself regarding this thread for a while. who knows... ill let it sink in some more...

for educational purpose, hope you don't mind i looked up your part. the darndest thing, it happens to be the same symbol as that 15.15 virgo that i mentioned that is my part of peril and contentment of the soul (also part of sons..)

Hmmm...

the symbol is about kids staring at an orangutang.. the keyword is "karmic confrontation"

WOW...major gaff on my part... gawd, I could just beat my head on a wall until it turns to mush, as to find I made such an error and have had it posted on the internet these last four and a half years. ...I thought this had become only a more recently problem with me due to burnout as I have had a number of computational errors this past year...and about 9 times out of ten involving a Part.

All this time I have been touting the Asc. + Pluto - Saturn formula for the Part of Organization based on what I wrote above.

As I was reviewing a number of alternative times [assuming the recorded time given of 8:01 a.m. was really a minute or two faster or slower and then also casting a chart based on Clarisses' vision that it was apprx. four and a half minutes later, as for the attempt at arriving at the closest in degree the Part of Death could come to exactly conjunct the Asc.] I realized it is the Asc. + Pluto - Sun formula that has also been labeled as a Part of Organization that was the one I had used to get those figures.


For an 8:01 a.m. natal chart with an Asc @ 21* 56' 04" ...and...
a M.C. @ 04 51' 15"
Part of Death [medieval C8th + - ] @ 20* 46' 36"
Part of Organization [Asc. + Pluto - Sun] @ 04* 28' 32"


For an 8:05:30 a.m. natal chart with an Asc. @ 22* 48' 44" ..and..
a M.C. @ 06* 03' 00"
Part of Death [medieval] @ 21* 44' 14"
Part of Organization 05* 21' 01"

This has got me reconsidering everything I thought I was sure of concerning Hillary and which chart to use. Even though I was going with Clarisses' time as to when they finally got her to breathe [which Clarisse said was the reason she gave for the additional four and a half minutes] I now feel it should still be recognized as 8:01 as for the Sun - Pluto formula for the Part of Organization being conj. in the same degree, the 5th, of Virgo as the M.C. for that time.
The Part of Death for either time is just slightly over one degree less than the Asc. for either time...
1* 09' 28" less at 8:01 a.m.
1* 04' 30" less at 8:05:30 a.m.

So, I'm favoring the 8:01 time now, but that's only because of the coincidence of the one Parts Formula that involves the Pluto - Sun factor producing the same exact degree and sign as the chart M.C. and that it might actually be properly titled as a Part of Organization.

...so, I do have to thank you for tackling this Part, this gaff may have gone unnoticed for eons until someone finally caught the error... and it's difficult enough to get anyone to take this Sabian Symbology seriously and my claim that the Parts are symbolically active without posting such terrible work as 'supportive evidence'.

here's another cut and paste from the actastrology.com forum about the 8:05:30 a.m. chart and Hillary if it might be of any additional interest and or help to you... [I'll check the figures before I post]

I thought I'd mention three other Arabic Parts of Hillarys' that I know of and are in imminent aspect near conjunction with transiting Planets.
The Part of Popularity [Asc + Venus - Pluto] which is at 24* Aquar. 12'.
The Part of Unusual Events [ Asc + Uranus - Moon] which is at 25* Aquar. 51'.
And the Part of Separation from Occupation, [Saturn + Jupiter - Sun] at 19* Virgo 31' and which was just conj. Saturn this past November 12th or so...and that is around when it was first suggested that she would find a place in Obamas' Cabinet and be separating from her present occupation as Senator...
_________________


attached Hillary Clinton natal charts 8:01 a.m. & 8:05:30 a.m.

 

[Phoenix Venus]

So, I'm favoring the 8:01 time now, but that's only because of the coincidence of the one Parts Formula that involves the Pluto - Sun factor producing the same exact degree and sign as the chart M.C. and that it might actually be properly titled as a Part of Organization.

maybe.... but then agggaaaiiiinnnn.... planets can have more than one meaning, so why not parts, eh? ehhhhh?

anyways, thanks for sharing all that about ms. clintons chart... i'll have to give it all a looksee some time when i get a chance.... (i've been wondering if you looked into any of the charts of the founding fathers... especially with the whole thing going around about "America founded by freemasons" crazy lady at house... and tv shows on the history channel about it.... [yeah]... i think i had some dream about it recently.... but that might be a discussion for another time...) everyone makes mistakes, good thing you spotted yours *pat on tha back*

but really organization... idk.... personally, as far as the sabians go, they (either variation of the "organization" part) don't seem to express that... to me. but then again what do i know

 

[piercethevale]

Yeah, I agree...a Part with either Saturn or the Sun as the 'Trigger' to a 'Significator' that is Pluto doesn't sound like a formula for "Organization".

I won't do charts for people born before the 20th Century [other than the one I wrote a book about.] in fact I don't like doing them for people born before 1940 as for the lack of concern for recording an accurate time of birth.
My dad hadn't a clue as to what time of day he was born and my mom only knew that she was Libra rising.

I did Richard Nixon's chart but not John Kennedy as for the reason the time given is exactly 3:00 which gives rise to immediate suspicion.

Other than Hillary, I've done charts for Bubba [Bill Clinton], 'Dubya' [Geo Jr. or what ever he is], Governor Jerry, "Moonbeam", Brown of Calif. [lots of Septiles!], Arnold Schwarzenegger, Al Gore, one for Barack Obama using the data from the controversial Hawaii certificate [or whatever it is] and a small number of charts for a few blokes that have run for a political office since 1984...when I first started casting natal charts [the old fashioned way

 

[piercethevale]

Sheeesh, It slipped my mind that we had addressed the formula Asc. + Pluto - Sun, some weeks ago and that we concluded jointly and agreed that the Part should be called "Sublimation of the Ego to the Spiritual"/

As for my own personal transiting Saturn conj. natal M.C. experiences ...two in my life, so far...

The last one occurred November 7, 2006 and I was in jail having been arrested on a probation violation Oct 23rd at around 12 noon...On Oct 23rd, at that time, Saturn was at apprx. 23* 23' and my M.C, is @ 24* 21'...thus it was within one degree of orb and is considered of affect. ... My Part of Fortune is @ 24* 59.
But it should be also noted that Mercury, Mars and the Sun were all in the 30th of Libra-1st of Scorpio and my Part of Retribution is @ 29* 26.
Neptune was @ 17* 03 and my Part of Wastefulness is @ 17* 23'

...and quite oddly, as i hadn't noticed before, is that Chiron was @ 04* 29' as my Part of Omens and Signs is @ 04* 32' and the evening before I was watching a movie with my friend, Miss X, that was about a writer that had about 7 to 9 'spot on' similarities in the movie to my own life at that time...so precise in detail as to cause Miss X to exclaim at the ending; "That's not going to happen to us, is it?"


...it did...

I was supposed to only do the 60 days I got out of for good behavior in 2003, when I did 120 days... the deputies at the jail made an issue out of my hair and said that unless I cut it I wouldn't be allowed on the "Honor Side' of the compound. [I didn't get "Honor SWide" in 2003 either but no one asked me to cut my hair.] I asked why and the deputies said that it was "gang oriented"...so I didn't get and "good time" and that caused me to have to serve an extra 12 days.
Instead of getting out on Dec. 22nd, I didn't get out until Jan. 3rd...
...Yeah... an extra 12 days for Xmas.
I started my first draft of my book while in there...for those "Seventy Two" days...Dorothy Leon [the professional writer the publisher arranged to have help me] noted that I wrote 109 pages.... exactly as how many beads on a Mala. {I also had $1350.00 in cash on me when I was arrested and as it was cash it had to be put into an account which I could draw on to buy "commissary" once a week... One is allowed to spend up to $100 and as I had more than enough to be able to spend a $100 every week...I made sure that I did order $100 worth of snack food, candy, hot sauce etc.every week and when the huge package arrived I started handing most of it out to all the other prisoners...which puts a smile on all the cellys faces and a big frown on the guards... Yeah, the guards don't like happy prisoners... go figure.
...and James Brown died on that Xmas Eve, the guards announced the fact and then played about an hours worth of James Brown through the P.A. system.

Wesat around on our bunks eating the Xmas candy i had bought for all while we watched a couple of the other prisoners dance together...one of them was a transsexual... Oh yeah, I forgotr to mention...I ended up in "Protective custody" after 10 days as i had found one of the mattress that was stacked under the eve of the exercise yard to be stuffed inside with about a half a dozen 'shanks"... I snitched it out and had 60 other prisoners all wanting to end my time right then.
In 'Protective Custody, you wear a black shirt instead of the prison orange one. In the special pod of 60 prisoners are the snitches, state witnesses that also were guilty of something and the rapists, the child molesters, transgendere/transvestites and all homosexuals that can't keep to themselves.
The good thing about it is that there are no gangs...none, or very little, of the MACHO MAN b.s.....and there's kind of a sick camaraderie among all as everyone of them knows that outside of their pod there are nothing but a few thousand other prisoners that will stomp their heads in because it's the "Honor Code" of the prison system.

There was one dude I could hang with, Big Pimpin', as he was only in there because when He was arrested the police dog got loose and bit the side of his face and cut his cheek from cheekbone to his mouth and that just also happens to be the mark of a snitch,,,or having a big mouth, as then they will make it bigger for you. He was/is a musician [piano and guitar] and helped me work out the mechanics of the Seven and the Five application of musical tonality to the Zodiac that I also did while serving that time.

It's a Christmas that I will never forget.

If the food hadn't of been so horrible I might even have said that I kinda had a good time

 

[Phoenix Venus]

You are very lucky to have made it out safe and without any diseases. my bf caught mrsa in jail. Even though he was in the work release program and got out every day, they locked him in the medical ward for 5 days as his foot continued to swell and swell with no antibiotics or anything. Finally he had to raise a sh*t storm to get to an actual hospital.

when saturn was crossing my mc, i moved out of home and started college. jupiter was also transiting my sun. I started college the last week of August 2005 and had moved into the apartment the thurs or fri before that which was bout the 25th. Jup hit an exact conjunction to sun on the 27th. saturn didn't reach exactness until sep 5th but had been within about a degree and a half cpnjunction since the initial move date.

i never finished college, it wasn't my thing... and at the time i was too young to appreciate the money that it cost.

when i gave my testimony not too long ago, my grandmother was so impressed that she offered to help financially for me to go back to college. i told her i'd have to think about it.

saturn is now slowly moving through my first house and coming up towards my first staurn return... lucky me

 

[Phoenix Venus]

Oh hey... saturn was rx conj my pluto the day we first talked on april 8 2013. Having some fun looking at those transits....you had t ceres conj ceres.. regarding activated parts that day there are a few interesting ones

 

[Phoenix Venus]

Oh yeah! And nn conjunct your asc!

 

[piercethevale]

Cool...

...could swear I just heard someone or somebodies trying to stifle a laugh above me... and I live on the top floor?

While I usually despise and loudly protest being the object of some matchmakers design... I got to say this ain't the worst blind date I've ever been on...

 

[Phoenix Venus]

Well, after spending some time letting this part soak in... I think it is more fitting to something along the lines of.. karmic renewal, cleansing, rebirth.. or possibly atonement.


I think it goes along with the planets involved, as pluto is about rebirth.... and saturn, which deals with karma, would trigger pluto, bringing around some cyclic end/beginnings... seems to fit along that tenor of renewed karma... which is very much tied in with the concept of atonement.


I think it also fits along with Yeshua's symbol, "The reward which meets every effort at integrating into a social environment for those who remain true to their own selves. There is also a hint that GOOD FORTUNE is going to bless your life. "

​

...which i find to be rather appropriate.