Need help determining the Lord of the Geniture in my chart

Osamenor

Administrator
Staff member
All,

This thread is not a place to discuss chart casting software either, beyond a brief mention. There were so many posts about that that they became a separate topic. I've made them a separate thread. Please go there if you want to continue that discussion. Stick to addressing the OP's question in this thread.

Seriously, stay on topic,
Osamenor
 

DC80

Well-known member
@herokangta

Can you message me your birthday if you not want to share it here. I have a Hellenistic Traditional Astrology sofware that will calculate your Lord of Geniture for you, and also give you your Dispositor Tree you will see which planet disposed all your other planets, as well as your Lord of Geniture like you asked.
I will plugin your birthday and screenshot yours for you.

It will look like this, like this chart below. This chart Lord of Geniture is the Scorpio Mars, it also the Scorpio Mars that disposed all the other planets too.

View attachment 111519

No. Can we please speak modern English?

This chart is diurnal.

Moon is cadent and disqualified.

Sun is both cadent and in a feminine sign and thus 50% out of sect and disqualified.

The Ascending Degree is the candidate for controller (aka predominator or the silly stupid "hyleg").

The Ascending Degree at Cancer 12° is in the bounds of Venus.

Venus is above the horizon thus the Ascending Degree is confirmed as the controller. Note that if Venus was below the horizon the controller automatically defaults to the Ascending Degree.

Venus is in the 8th House/Place and in aversion to the ASC/1st Place.

Therefore this chart has no chart ruler.
 

DC80

Well-known member
Also, I redid my chart in astro.com to incorporate terms and decans and it looks like Moon is in its own decan so that is another essential dignity but for accidental dignity it is placed in 8th house and Saturn overcame it.

Decans/faces are not a dignity. The dignities are signs of elevation (what uninformed people call "exaltation"), the signs of rulership, trigons and bounds.

That's the way it was for 1,000 years before the Arabs and Persians messed everything up.

"
TRIPLICITY. If he be in any of those Signs which are alotted him for Triplicity, he hath allowed him three dignities; but i herein you must be cautious; as for example:
In a Question, Nativity, or the like, if you find the Sun in Aries, and the Question, or Nativity, or Scheam erected be by night, and you would examine the Sun his fortitudes, he shall have four dignities for being in his exaltation, which continues through the Sign; but shall not be allowed any dlgnity, as being in his triplicity; for by night the Sun ruleth not the fiery Triplicity, but Jupiter; who had he been in place of the Sun, and by night, must have had allowed him three dignities: and this doe generally in all the Planets, Mars excepted, who night and day ruleth the watry Triplicity.
A Planet in his triplicity, shews a man modestly indued with the Goods and Fortune of this world, one prettily descended, and the condition of his life at present time of the Question, to be good; but not so, as if in either of the two former dignities."

That has the foul odor of Lily.

You wanna know why modern astrology does not use Lots?

It's because the Arabs and Persians ran around like a raped ape conjuring up all kinds of bizarre lots that are useless and the Renaissance astrologers couldn't make heads or tails out of them so by the time you get to the Classical astrologers, nobody knows what's going on.

Gadbury mentions the lots but it's clear he doesn't understand them or know how to use them. Lily only mentions the Lot of Fortune and ignores the other lots because he is so incredibly vain and his ego is so enormous he doesn't want you to know there's something he doesn't understand.

Unfortunately, modern astrologers relied heavily on the Classical astrologers while ignoring the Renaissance astrologers and didn't have access to early Greek or Latin texts and sadly they relied almost exclusively on Lily who got most things wrong.

Sun in any fire sign is in his own trigon. Period. End of story. The fact that a chart is nocturnal and Jupiter is the fire trigon ruler has no bearing on the dignity of Sun.

Lily is too stupid to make the distinction between being the trigon ruler and being a member of that trigon.

If you follow Lily's illogic then Saturn can never have dignity in a fire sign because he is never the fire trigon ruler and we know that to be false so Lily is just plain wrong.

Do you know how to use the trigons?

Well, first, judge the chart. Every chart you look at will either be a Loser (~10% of the population) who never amount to anything, a Drone (~65% of the population) who never go anywhere, an Extraordinary Person (~15% of population) who end up as footnotes in history, one of the Beautiful People (~8% of the population) and you know who they are, or an Elite (~2%) and they're the movers and shakers in this world.

If you don't like the names I use you can make up your cute little epithets. The reason you must do that is because the malefics function differently depending on the type of chart. For Losers and Drones malefics are truly malefic and rain on their parade and ruin/destroy things and the benefics are of little help. In the charts of Extraordinary People malefics sometimes help, sometimes hinder, and the benefics help a lot. In the charts of the Beautiful People and the Elite the malefics function like benefics.

That's just plain common sense right? Because good guys finish last. That's true most of the time. Probably 90% of the time.

Mars (ruthless) and Saturn (cunning) well, if you aren't willing to knock people down and climb over their unconscious, maimed or dead bodies (in the case of the Clintons) then you'll never make it to the top.

Is that sad? Yeah, it is. You can be sad about it but your feelings do not change reality and the reality is that's how the world works.

After you judge the chart you judge the places.

You can start with the 1st place. I do. That's your life, your body, your breath.

What stars aspect the 1st place? There's no stars in the 1st place! Yeah? Big freaking deal. What stars aspect or are in aversion to the 1st place? That will tell you how their life overall will go.

Now look at the trigon. Say Aries rising diurnal chart. Sun is the diurnal fire trigon ruler. The condition and place where Sun is in the chart tells you how the first 1/3rd of their life will go. Jupiter is next and his condition will tell you how the second third of their life will go and Saturn is last and he'll show you how the last 1/3rd of their life goes.

If the chart was nocturnal, we'd start with Jupiter, then Sun, then Saturn.

Say you have a Pisces 6th place. I'll show you how wrong Lily is.

Chart is diurnal so Venus is the water trigon ruler and her condition and place in the chart will tell you how the first 1/3rd of someone's life works out. Mars is next, then Moon.

If the chart is nocturnal then you'd look at Mars, Venus and Moon in that order. If Mars was in bad condition they might have lots of injuries or illnesses or difficulty with inferiors (if the Greeks had meant "slaves" they would have used one of the 3 Greek words that actually means "slave" instead of using the word that means "inferior") or trouble getting/keeping a job.

Now that you know that you now understand why -- at least in part -- sometimes Losers and Drones become Extraordinary People or even Beautiful People or the Elite and why sometimes the Beautiful People and the Elite end up as Losers or Drones. There are other things you need to look at before drawing that conclusion.

Anyway, if you want to be a good astrologer, ignore Lily.
 

DC80

Well-known member
Thanks for the information. I just checked Astro Seek and they produced this table below:

View attachment 111461

Does it mean the Lord of Geniture is either Saturn or Venus?

Astrology is not Euchre or Cribbage or golf or tennis or baseball and because it isn't, we don't keep score.

All these silly point scoring seems are both unnecessary and wrong and it will lead you to the wrong interpretation/conclusion 99% of the time (because even a broken clock is right twice a day).

In astrology, it's important to understand why things are they way they are.

If you remember history, from about the 9th Century (the 800's BCE) Greeks run the governments and the armies of all the kingdoms in the "triangle" (Greece, Egypt and Persia).

That's why a Greek -- Pharaoh Nechepso -- is pharaoh of Egypt from about 700-650 BCE.

In 612 BCE, Greek-speaking Canaanites overthrew the Assyrians.

In the 300s, Alexander conquers Egypt and then he quips the Greeks in the Persian government and the Greeks in the Persian army are on the wrong side and then he conquered Persia. And modern-day Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Kashmir Region of India. Then he died. Then end. Of Alexander.

His empire is divided among his 4 generals. General Ptolemy (no relation to Ptolemy the Pturd) gets modern-day Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Israel and Jordan (and part of Tunisia). General Selucus gets modern-day Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Kashmir Region in India.

That period in history is called Hellenization because Egypt effectively becomes Greece and Persia effectively becomes Greece.

Fast forward 9 centuries and the Arabs are trying to translate Greek texts through the Egyptian dialect of Greek and Persians are trying to translate texts through the Persian dialect of Greek and they blew it.

All aspects are by sign. There are no orbs but the Arabs and Persians had a poor understanding of Greek which caused them to misunderstand the concepts and some of the concepts they didn't understand.

So a star in Capricorn squares a star in Aries. Period. End of story. The Arabs and Persians didn't understand that because they handcuffed themselves to orbs but there's something definitely going on and to explain that they started going berserk with the trigon rulers and final dispositors and other nonsense and still couldn't explain it.

Same with house systems. Charts are read in whole sign. Use a house system and you'll botch the interpretation, just like the Arabs and Persians who couldn't even predict their own demise.

Because they used house systems the wrong way they had to fix the mess they made by conjuring up scoring systems and other nonsense.

If you want to learn, ignore all of the MAP astrologers (Medieval, Arabic and Persian) and everyone after them.

You can read Morinus. And al-Batanni. He got it. He even calls out the other Arabs and Persians for being stupid.

Chart rulers are an advanced technique, so I gotta ask, why do you even wanna know?

You're not a Houdini, are you? That's what I call them. Houdinis. They're escape artists trying to escape the reality of their chart because they don't like what it says.
 

DC80

Well-known member
Which star is the chart ruler?

Chart Ruler.jpg



Astrologers know it's Mercury. If you didn't get it keep studying
 

waybread

Staff member
Just a reminder that there are different methods for calculating the lord of the geniture. They don't all agree. To my way of thinking, anyone who is middle-aged or older can look and see how their life turned out so far. With some introspection and astrological knowledge, it should be possible to see which planet has been the strongest in one's life. (There may be more than one, and the lord of the geniture may not be in a super-strong position, regardless)

For sure, there is no agreement on the "best school of astrology.." We're free to express our personal opinions about them, however.

Just a repeat from a previous post of mine:

"Are you familiar with the Skyscript website of traditional western astrology? Here is their glossary entry on finding the lord of the geniture:
https://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/geniture.html

"One useful distinction is,

"'The Lord of the Geniture is defined as the planet with the most essential and accidental dignity THAT CAN ACT. In other words, a powerful Jupiter in the 12th might not be as good a choice as a weaker Mars in the 10th. Generally speaking, planets in the 6th, 8th, and 12th houses have difficulty acting. They usually require a strong aspect or strong reception to achieve their potential, or an enormous amount of will power on the part of the native."

"'The idea that planets have trouble "acting" is probably a better expression than simply saying that an 8th house planet (your moon) is in a "bad house.'"

"What this Skyscript entry also suggests to me is that the process of finding the lord of the geniture admits to a fair bit of subjectivity.

"It also has this surprising comment, "' Essential dignity is potential; accidental dignity is power.'"

"Obviously a horoscope cast for the moment of a baby's birth can show only potential, not a biography. Whereas, I think what this sentence says, is that a planet boxed into a "bad" house, unless it has a lot of mitigating factors, has trouble manifesting its potential."

DC80, You have an interesting interpretation of the ancient Greeks, but of course, the Hellenistic astrologers disagreed among themselves, as well. Not that this need repress our forming our own personal opinions.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Astrology is not Euchre or Cribbage or golf or tennis or baseball and because it isn't, we don't keep score.
All these silly point scoring seems are both unnecessary and wrong and it will lead you to the wrong interpretation/conclusion 99% of the time (because even a broken clock is right twice a day).
good point
In astrology, it's important to understand why things are they way they are. If you remember history, from about the 9th Century (the 800's BCE) Greeks run the governments and the armies of all the kingdoms in the "triangle" (Greece, Egypt and Persia).
That's why a Greek -- Pharaoh Nechepso -- is pharaoh of Egypt from about 700-650 BCE. In 612 BCE, Greek-speaking Canaanites overthrew the Assyrians.
okay
then
:

In the 300s, Alexander conquers Egypt and then he quips the Greeks in the Persian government and the Greeks in the Persian army are on the wrong side and then he conquered Persia. And modern-day Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Kashmir Region of India. Then he died. Then end. Of Alexander. His empire is divided among his 4 generals. General Ptolemy (no relation to Ptolemy the Pturd) gets modern-day Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Israel and Jordan (and part of Tunisia). General Selucus gets modern-day Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Kashmir Region in India.
so
That period in history is called Hellenization because Egypt effectively becomes Greece and Persia effectively becomes Greece.
interesting
Fast forward 9 centuries and the Arabs are trying to translate Greek texts through the Egyptian dialect of Greek and Persians are trying to translate texts through the Persian dialect of Greek and they blew it.
that explains the muddle

All aspects are by sign. There are no orbs but the Arabs and Persians had a poor understanding of Greek which caused them to misunderstand the concepts and some of the concepts they didn't understand.vSo a star in Capricorn squares a star in Aries. Period. End of story. The Arabs and Persians didn't understand that because they handcuffed themselves to orbs but there's something definitely going on and to explain that they started going berserk with the trigon rulers and final dispositors and other nonsense and still couldn't explain it.
okay
Same with house systems. Charts are read in whole sign. Use a house system and you'll botch the interpretation, just like the Arabs and Persians who couldn't even predict their own demise. Because they used house systems the wrong way they had to fix the mess they made by conjuring up scoring systems and other nonsense.
good point
If you want to learn, ignore all of the MAP astrologers (Medieval, Arabic and Persian) and everyone after them.
You can read Morinus. And al-Batanni. He got it. He even calls out the other Arabs and Persians for being stupid.
Chart rulers are an advanced technique, so I gotta ask, why do you even wanna know? You're not a Houdini, are you? That's what I call them. Houdinis. They're escape artists trying to escape the reality of their chart because they don't like what it says.

.
 

geminimercury

Well-known member
lmfao
I never say anything about Chart ruler. I said Lord of Geniture. Don't get it mix up between chart rule and Lord of geniture.

And sorry, read the books again, Sun in 9th house of it Joy house Ptolemy allow it to be the hyleg.

You know what, here let me tell you the art of astrology, doesn't matter how you spin it, if you want to find something that fit your narrative, you will find it.

My time with astrology has passed, I do wish everyone here enjoy their journey.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
lmfaoI never say anything about Chart ruler. I said Lord of Geniture. Don't get it mix up between chart rule and Lord of geniture. And sorry, read the books again, Sun in 9th house of it Joy house Ptolemy allow it to be the hyleg.
Ptolemy was not an astrologer
You know what, here let me tell you the art of astrology, doesn't matter how you spin it, if you want to find something that fit your narrative, you will find it.
Interesting
DC80, it's nice to see you back again, with your astrological expertise and obvious passion for astrology. I have recently become a moderator, and I promised our moderator-in-chief that I would not get embroiled in the kinds of controversies that I embraced back in 2011 - 2019, ...

okay

The position of this Forum, and of the current triumvirate of moderators, is that members are entitled to their astrological opinions.

okay

So I absolutely respect your right (privilege?) on this forum to express strong astrological views, so long as they do not devolve into personal attacks, off-topic posts,


or anything else that is not allowed on this Forum.

My time with astrology has passed, I do wish everyone here enjoy their journey.
Thankyou - likewise :)


.
 
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