Music and the Path Of True Discipleship & the 7 & the 5


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Howdy. this little theory of mine was brought up in orciniusorcas' thread on 'Musical Tonality' in the general chat forum.
It has since languished over there and I'd like to revive it here with a thread along a different theme i.e spiritual and Sabian interpretation.
I worked on this for some while [and am still 'workin' with it.] and then posed most of the following that appears as 'new thought' to a clairvoyant whom assists me in such matters of seeing beyond what is presently accepted knowledge and she either concurred this is the proper understanding and/or gave me reasonable cause to draw to some conclusions...Please hear me out [and I'm not saying that just because 'Some Psychic' backs me up that this is 'Gospel Truth'...but I think most of you will understand my process of delineation here and the results...and I trust this psychic to be sincere and genuine].

[...this is from a recent posting at ]

...I have a theory on the application of the musical notes to the Zodiac that I elaborated on over at the Astrodienst forum under a thread, I started, titled 'Birth Chart of the Universe".
This theory of mine involves the "Kabbalistic Astrology" book of Rabbi Joel Dobin and how it corresponds with the Sabian Symbols to determine where the OM of creation originated from [The 'Word in the Beginning']. The Rabbi re-translated Habukuk to read that the force of God comes from between Capricorn and Aquarius. OM, by Vedic science, is in the Key of 'B'. Thus by applying a 14 point grid on the Zodiac begininng with the point 00* 00' 00" [actually, since there is no 00* 00' 00" of any degree this occurs just immediately after that point which in fact is 30* 00' 00" Capricorn, thus it is something like 00* 00'" Aquarius] and proceding toward Pisces [which represents the key of 'C'], then Aries which is the key of C# {or D flat depending upon your musical nomenclature]...and so on... there is to be a point every 25.714285 degrees [Half the slope of the 'Great Pyramid']. The hypothetical but non-existant 'B#' and 'E#' must be accounted for by this theory of mine. [The hypothetical but non-existent B# is at 25.714285* Aquarius...for example and clarification.]

When the points are connected by 7ths or 5ths [as is the law of musical scale harmonics] you end up with a 12 pointed 'Star Matrix' consisting of two groups of 7 points & 5. When connected in this manner, note that the signs come out grouped as they are presently arranged above and below the equator. For example; Leo, Virgo, Libra, Scopio, Sagittarius, Capricorn and Aquarius are the '7', and the remainder the '5' .

The 12 point Matrix is supposed to represent the "True Path of Discipleship' by some sources [The writings of Dorthy Leon is one]
And if it's as Rudhyar stated that all paths of discipleship begin in Virgo. This is highly illuminating as the first point that one connects to from 00* 00'" Aquar. is the point in Virgo in the 22nd degree [ at 21.4285713 degrees Virgo to be percise] when one connects these 'Dots' in cycles of 5ths or 7ths.This also correponds to some ancient Mesopotamian or Babylonian [or they could have been Summerian or Assyrian...I'm not sure] bas-reliefs we have seen with a man beneath an arragement of Stars above him in this configuration of seven stars to one side of him and five stars to his other side.

Also the Sabians that are at these points are most interesting if viewed with the hypothesis they represent the "True Path of Discipleship", according to Rudhyar all true paths of discipleship begin in Virgo then one reads the symbol for the 22nd degree of Virgo and proceds to the symbol for the 18th degree of Libra then the 13th degree of Scopio and so forth for a 'Symbolically Illustrated 12 Step Path of Discipleship" ...all in all, pretty far outstuff, I'll admit...but this theory has got a lot going for it.

Then, by this line of thought the "True Path of Discipleship" begins at Virgo 22*...the symbol for which [from Rudhyars' book] "A ROYAL COAT OF ARMS ENRICHED WITH PRECIOUS STONES. KEYNOTE: The certification of aristocratic status, at whatever level "nobility" expressess itself in cultural eminence. ...Every great Adept has come out of a line of human beings who have made their marks upon human evolution...."

...and the "Path" ends with the 26th degree of Leo the symbol for which is {Rudhyar] "AFTER THE HEAVY STORM, A RAINBOW. KEYNOTE: Linking above and below, the Convenant with ones' divine nature, promise of immortality...we find the man who has been able to weather the cathartic storm face-to-face with his divine Archetype; because he has been victorious, a link has been established with his divine Soul-being...[and Rudhyars' Keyword{s} for this symbol} ...REVELATION OF WORTH"

I believe you should be able to get a pretty good picture of how this is working here by the above.
One has to prove their, or give "certification of aristocratric status" of a sort, to petition for discipleship in most all practices of spirituality that have "Paths of Discipleship."
And what symbol of the entire 360 could be more appropriate to the last step of any "Path of Discipleship" than...the sign from God of a mission [or Journey, or Lesson or 'Path of Discipleship'?] accomplished?? This "A Rainbow After A Big Storm" symbol is as near a symbol as you will find among the Sabians that is representetive of 'God' handing you a DIPLOMA...after your final exams/tests...

Thus what I see that we end up with here symbolically, when we use my theory/system and a fourteen point matrix, is the Path of Discipleship illustrated by ...

Symbol #1 Virgo 22* Initiation...The Certification that one is worthy as a candidate for the Path of True the beginning

Symbol #12 Leo 26* Graduation...the Revelation that your are Worth-y and you have passed the test from God the end!

...a lot of this can also be possibly be viewed as more piceces of the picture in the puzzle from the "As Above, So Below" school of thought.

Try drawing this out for yourselves, where you get a 12 pointed star of 7 tines on one side and 5 tines on the all the Sabians involved in the 12 steps... Stating with Virgo 22* and proceding through the Zodiac until the 26th of Leo and you'll see what I mean!
[I'm not sure how to regard the two 'degrees of the Zodiac @ the 26th of Aquar. and the 30th of Cancer...{in fact right at 29.99999...* Cancer???...this is an interesting matrix!}...but these two degrees are at the least 'some sort of "place holders" in the equation...and then possibly that and nothing more.]

...Again, figure the first point at 00* 00' 00.oo....ooo1" Aquarius and this marks the musical note 'B'
25° 42' 51.42852" Aquarius is the hypothetical/non-existent B#
21° 25' 42.85704" Pisces is C
17° 08' 34.28556" Aries is C#
12° 51' 25.71408" Taurus is D
08° 34' 17.14260" Gemini is D#
04° 17' 08.57112" Cancer is E
29° 59' 59.99999" Cancer is the hypothetical/non-existent E#
25° 42' 51.42816" Leo is F
21° 25' 42.85668" Virgo is F#
17° 08' 34.28520" Libra is G
12° 51' 25.71372" Scorpio is G#
08° 34' 17.14224" Sagittarius is A
04° 17' 08.57076" Capricorn is A#

Now here's something else about this arangement that I like...and gives it some weight for thought.
It has to do with musical harmonics and my 'Runic Explanation' of the Zodiac which is posted elsewhere in this forum.

All you musicians [and some of you non-musicians] know that the keys of 'C' and 'G' harmonize.

The key of 'C' consists of the notes: C, D, E, F, G, A, B
The Key of 'G' consists of the notes: G, A, B, C, D, E, F#

note that the half-step in the key of 'C' is between the notes 'E' and 'F'
and the half-step in the key of 'G' is between the notes 'B' and 'C' whats so interesting about this?...the note of 'E' is Cancer and the 'F' is Leo, and by my 'Runic' explanation Cancer is "All Water On The Earth" and Leo is "All Fire On The Earth" = ...."EVAPORATION!"

...The note of 'B' is Aquarius and the 'C' is Pisces, and by my 'Runic' explanation Aquarius [the Water Bearer] is "All Air Above The Earth" and Pisces is "All Water Above The Earth" = "RAIN!"


Thus, Keys of 'C' & 'G' = HARMONY

& Evaporation & Rain = HARMONY

[...ARE YA' DIGGIN IT?]...Again with the indications/implications that Astrology is the "Mother of All Science"...and interestingly I recently read a passage from a book by Rudhyar wherein He was so bold as to make the same statement, in the context, that 'some day it would be proven as such'.

At one time I kew of a couple of very esoteric web-sites that had mention of things along the lines of this subject I'm pursuing...but they have since disappeared...or it's due to my poor computer skills I can't locate them again....


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...Note: as dividing the circle i.e. 360 by 14 equals 25.714285......*
Then the degree for the hypothetical/non-existant E# could be at 00* 00' 00.0ooooo1" Leo instead of where I placed it in the 30th degree Cancer in the explanation per in relation to where I say this matrix begins.
Actually placing it here, in the 1st degree of Leo makes more its' symetry.


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Oh my, this is pretty interesting.
Pity that the division of the circle into 360 degrees makes for some nasty irrational numbers.
As far as math goes, I'd be more prone to going with the E# at 00.0000...1 of Leo, since everybody who understands fractions can tell you that 29.999999999999.... is the same as saying 30.

(If you or anyone else reading this is skeptical, here's the proof: )
The moral of the story here is that decimal isn't always the best way to display numbers.

I'll have to look more closely at the sabian symbols involved and into musical notes, etc. But this has grabbed my interest, it's wonderful.


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Thanks for the open minded interest.
The application of the 12 musical notes to the Zodiac is something that many a mind has struggled with...tried to solve...some great/famous minds among them, such as Newton...whom, by the way, also developed a template for the color spectrum [that doesn't quite work either.]
I believe the trick to it is/was...applying a 14 point matrix and skipping the two 'phantom' notes...
Why...??? I don't came to me while meditating on it...I "Saw" it...and such a curious's double the Septile matrix [which is so curious itself...see my thread on the 'Birthchart of Jesus?"] so in a sense it's a "Grand Semi-Septile".
And as I have pointed out it answers/stirs up a lot.
I had a recent CD by "Hawkwind" that had a DVD included that is kind of a cheezy music video...but it has the aforementioned bas-relief in the video...too bad I gave away/sold the CD...I can't get any info on that interesting picture.
...knowing "Hawkwind", that picture could be from anywhere...
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Okay, let's look at the next symbol.
First, let me state that when I came up with this arrangement I was someplace remote where I didn't have my book on the Sabians. I wrote my good friend and fellow yogi, Suryakant, and asked him to look these degrees up and mail me the results.
Now Suryakant at that time was 63 years old. He was one of the first disciples of the Mahesh Yogi of TM [and one of the very first instructors] and in the 70s' became a disciple of the Lala order of Mahakundalini...thus He knows something about the "Path of Discipleship".
In the letter I recieved from him, a few couple of weeks, later he started out in his letter grumbling about how he didn't like the idea of looking up and writing down 12 of the Sabian Symbols from Rudhyars' book on the subject...especially in light of how He said he expected it to turn out to be some "wild goose chase". He said he couldn't understand why this couldn't wait until I got back and could look them up my self. But, I had anticipated this and told him I was far too anxious to see what my theory had uncovered to wait the 6 weeks or so that it would take.
Suryakant had seen me in astrological action for a few years by then and knew what I was capable, he did this for me. Then after He did He said He was glad He had done so. Suryakant went on in his letter to thank me and comment that he was glad I had done just that...
Suryakant said that these symbols, in this order do, represent the "Path of Discipleship", and that by my making him read and write them out caused him to reflect deeply on them and 'see' He got to read these symbols before I had... his letter gave me great encouragement and I couldn't wait to read all twelve...I highly repect his opinion on spiritual matters, yoga, discipleshhip Sanskrit, Hindu theology et. al.

Anyways...the next symbol to follow is that for the 18th DEGREE of LIBRA, which is [from Rudhyars' book] "TWO MEN PLACED UNDER ARREST. Keynote: A breakdown in the constructive relationship between the individual and society, and the expectable result...the individual whose actions introduce unacceptable principle [or radically different such as following an 'Ascetics' path. ptv] into the established order runs the risk of being 'punished' or re-formed according to this order. The problem for a society is how to include in its patterns of order agencies or channels for transformation-and particularly how to keep them truly operative; for indiviuals, it is how to make their transforming vision or impulse acceptable to society. The symbol does not reveal what caused the breakdown in the relationship between the individual and society..."

Well, this does make sense. The first thing one undergoes on the "Path" is a sense of are usually denying yourself some form of sense stimuli...possibly you need seclusion for meditation/prayer...your old friends will suddenly 'Not understand you', and not want to hang out with you as often...if at all."
The symbol of 'being under arrest', just as easily can mean to 'arrest oneself' away from the things/stimuli one needs to be removed from for discilpline [that's discipline as in disciple...] another sense it could also mean to arrest the attention...which is so important for meditation/prayer on the "Path of Discipleship".

{...Ever since I had read in one of Dorothy Leons writings that the 12 pointed star/matrix represented the "True Path of Discipleship", I had causually 'tooled around' the Zodiac, symbolically, looking to "see' if any 12 point matrix on a 30* or "Grand Semi-Sextile" template made sense along this theme symbolically. I hadn't found anything....that is using a 30* template...why does 25.714285...degrees work out ?????? I don't have the answer to that. The mystery [if there is one] lies in understanding this 7/5 thing...12/14 thing...the answer lies in the magic of the math, I believe.
But,when I couple what I've found symbolically with my theory that; "if it consists of 12 points it should have something to do with the musical scale", coupled with Rudhyars' statement in many writings that, "Virgo is the start of all Paths of Discipleship", that the linking of the points in the matrix [by the 'musical' 7ths of 5ths] leads to an arrangement of 7 & 5 points/tines as seen in the aforementioned bas-reliefs [and mentioned in some very esoteric writings of which I can no longer locate on the web or remember the souce of...but now I'm beginning to think I remember one source was possibly Manichean...I'll have to check some more]...anyways, when I connect all these "Dots" makes sense...a lot of sense... and seems like a very worthy theory to further explore/develop.}

...So, so far I have here three degrees that make sense as per what the symbols for the "Path of True Discipleship" should be.
The first two...i.e. Virgo 22* & Libra 18* and the last symbol in the sequence...Leo 26*.
I'll cover the other nine symbols that lie in-between, in installments, if anyone finds this conjecture/subject of mine of interest enough for me to continue.
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Your whole theory of music is off....
There is no B# that is a C
So if Aquar. is a B
then it is as Follows.



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Your whole theory of music is off....
There is no B# that is a C
So if Aquar. is a B
then it is as Follows.


Please...start over and re-read slowly...yes, I know there is no such thing as a B# / C Flat...or a E# / F Flat...that's one of the points...[anyways]
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This is the husband of the person on this site.
I do somewhat understand what you are saying, trying to find a harmony:)
But my 25 years of music theory and teaching leave quite a few ??? marks on what your numerology is actually adding up in tonal equivalent.
There are many different tunings,most of today's tuning is based on 440 tuning. So I think you need to add this value.
But there are many more below and above 440 which will read the same note letter, but does not equal 440 notation. It may be off .5 or as drastic as 2.
I think what you are looking for is more in a personal tone harmonic with aura vibration. Which can not be explained in chart or math, but self exploration in tones, which depending on your environment at the time will change from day to day hour to hour location to location.
I was just trying to help with the correction of notation:wink:.
Happy hunting:)


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...I'm not a musician...unless you consider 40 years of Banjo pickin'

[Q. What is "Perfect Pitch"?........A. The sound of a Banjo hitting an accordian in a dumpster...courtesey of my neighbor, Hence Phillips.]

Seriously. This application is about the unusual connections/results/matrix that results when put to the Zodiac.
Look up what Issac Newton was trying to accomplish by this same technique [although, as I said, he never could come up with a satisfactory hypothesis as per to the equation/formula...this addition of two 'ponits' to the matrix comes up with these unusual results I mentioned.
Why?...I don't know.
For Example; Why does mantra work? be absolutely honest...I don't understand the scientific 'mechanics'...but I do know it does work...I have been blessed in my life with certain proclivities that lean towards what people refer to as the "Mystical"...any Astrologer [worth their salt] can tell/see it immediately from my birthchart
What this has endowed me with is a type of sensitivity to certain energies in the cosmos...I am only reporting on what I've experienced and sense...[Doe this mean I know what I'm talking about?...not at could be I'm only all the more 'muddled' from this extra-sensory data/input!]
I am putting all this out as THEORY...and it should only be regarded as such.

...also remember/keep in mind I'm trying to illustrate,what probably is, a muti-dimensional concept on a two-dimensional piece of paper/computer screen.

...thanks for the interest and your reply...I trust, at least, I've tweaked some interest.
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I would like to add to the above that I mentioned in the initial post that this subject was brought up by orcinusorcus in the general chat forum.
It is at that site we were exploring the 'mechanics' of these theories.
I mentioned above that I'd like to explore this subject from a spiritual/Sabian Symbol perspective. [I believe that the Sabian Symbols can be referred to as "Spiritual Laws'].
I am constantly trying out new applications of these symbols to known mysteries of the science of Astrology. What I've found is that they are something of a 'Rosetta Stone' of deciphering/obtaining new info/insights
If you wish to get into 'mechanics/physics' of musical tonality I would suggest posting in that could use reviving...a worthy subject!


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Greetings. Well, once again I've run into something that gives support to my theory posted above concerning the application of the Musical Scale or Musical Tonality and its relationship to the angle of the sides of the Great Pyramid....51.42871....*
There is a video available to watch on the internet called the "2012 Enigma" and it is presented by a fellow named David Wilcock.
In the info presented He talks about Acoustic mechanics and how the degree of the angle of the Great Pyramid applies to it.

...I do recommend seeing it...but be forewarned the bulk of the presentation is a bit far out as it pertains to a lot a odd subjects...such as the "Philadelphia Experiment", "The Montauk Project", "Project Looking Glass"...etc.


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[also posted on the thread: "Astrology in relation to Musical tonality."]

Playing with the application of visible spectrum to the Zodiac a very stimulating conversation with 'Mitch' the other night and his talk of the Seventh Ray info he was aware of lead to this.
It took about all of 5 mins. to come up with this...if it is the solution, someday, I will asked to be slapped for it being so simple...posthumous slaps will be accepted and acknowledged by 'Thunderclap' or 'Rainbow', conditions permitting.

The six colors of the spectrum are Indigo, Blue, Green, Red, Orange and Yellow. The seventh ray or missing colour is Violet.

This is my proposal...and it makes sense because watch where the 'missing ray/colour falls'...

The 'B' Aquarius/Leo 'F' is the colour Indigo
'A#' Capricorn/Cancer 'E' is the colour Blue
'A' Sagittarius/Gemini 'D#' is the colour Green
'G#' Scorpio/Taurus 'D' is the colour Yellow
'G' Libra/Aries 'C#' is the colour Orange
'F#' Virgo/Pisces 'C' is the colour Red
and the phantom 'B#' Aquarius/Cancer 'E#' is the missing ray, the colour Violet

..see the interesting connection?...and as the white light of the Holy Eternal Light of the Logos, OM, enters at the Ajna, for which the 'Beej Mantra' is OM and thus enters at the 'B' which vibrates with the Ajna, which is why I place the colour Indigo there [Indigo being the colour most commonly avowed to as being the colour associated with the Ajna...also known as 'The Third Eye'] the Sun and the Moon being those two Luminaries as to which the Bible states were given to us as Gods Eternal Light as because it is how that Light can only be manifested in the physical Universe, I find delightfully intriguing...the missing ray is associated with both the Sun/Leo and the Moon/Cancer...

This arrangement then gives some indication as to why Aquarius breaks the pattern of all the 'negative polarity' or Moon side of the division of the Zodiac got to be one of the '7' of the Sun side division of the Zodiac...can you see it? Aquarius hooks up with Leo for the Polarity of both sign and tonality and Aquarius hooks up with Cancer for the Phantom note..the note that isn't there, the missing colour, the seventh ray, Violet...and Aquar./Cancer isn't of Polarity...and can't be if both are negative polarity as signs ...thus why the keys of tonality, B# and E# don't exist..or, at least, it sure makes sense to me.

[an alternative theory is that the 7 major keys are the colours and the Five sharp keys are the somehow associated appropriately. I would want to find a way to make the '7' all the major keys and the '5' the sharps...and will tinker with that...unless someone wishes to work on it and post it before I get around to it...which, considering how long it took me to get around to this, from the last time I posted on this thread...might be awhile, if even I have a hunch this should be the, or a clue to, the solution of the colour app. to the tonality and the Zodiac...
or, just another simply foolish idea from a simple idiotic fool...]


ps...I include this...source, H.P. Blavatsky [I don't know if it is accurate...I figure some one in the forum will note if it is or not...]

Wave-lengths in millimeters................................Number of vibrations in trillions

Violet extreme
Red extreme


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Do you know of Masaru Emoto? If you do not know this man to him..I asked one of my close friends about this and he said it was meaningless; is this really something not to talk about lol?


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"Now because evil has five members while good has seven, the good only remains by itself at the beginning and end. But during the middle period of its evolution it dips down into the five and redeems the harmony of the twelve-foldedness." Manichean

(Here reference is made to the seven light and the five dark constellations in the Sun's course.)

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I LOVE IT. You have my mind racing. Music, harmonics, God, perfect balance, application to the stars, application to life as a, repeating scales, round and round, 360 degree circle, the "missing notes", number 9, the geometry of creation, God, death and rebirth...entering in at 00 Cap/Aquarius; exiting/rebirthing (?) at 00 Cancer/Leo... I don't know where my brain is trying to go with this, but there is something that resonates...big time.

I'm sure you are on to something, something very very important. Something perhaps only savants can truly understand, but they cannot communicate it. It's in that void, or space, in between just knowing and being able to communicate it that the "devil", or evil, or the demiurge, or being forced to reincarnate, or..... whatever, gains access and puts a proverbial stick in the perfect 360 wheel. F***s it up, throws it off balance, takes it off course... I see clay on a potter's wheel. Perfectly centered, the potter can create the most beautiful works, but if the clay is even one degree off perfect center, the creation becomes crooked, lopsided, or sometimes just completely falls apart and fly off the wheel leaving splats of clay all over the potter's workspace that will dry up and not be recovered or reused -- they become useless. I don't know where my mind is going...just rambling as images come... the wheel turns, the potter creates, external forces disrupt the work, at what point can determine whether the potter can salvage the work or not, or if the clay is wasted splatted all over the walls, floor and ceiling (like stars in the universe), still clay, but not in any viable form from which any good use can be manifested. What is the viable use of music? Viable = practical, effective, capable of living. Does music live? I say it does. I feel music, I feel me shrivel up without music. Music is harmonics. My life is, despite all my effort to rectify, disharmonic. I am the clay off-center on the potter's wheel. The wheel stops turning at the time of birth -- the moment when the potter threw his clay ball onto the still wheel, the foundation for the coming creation. I'm losing the tie to the music now...but it's there. Oh, it's there alright.

Don't let go of this concept of yours. It's got a lot of merit. As usual, just as my intuitive vision peaks, it fades. It's like trying to pull the dust out of the air. I have to stop for a few. Head throbbing.
Yes, yes, yes... I am Aquarius...indigo 654; in my Mayan chart I'm red...lunar skywalker...I AM the bridge that brings heaven to earth. Something's breaking up the bridge... Red -- 484, indigo 654... bridge?... Rainbow Bridge...???...colors, tones, vibrations...a disrupted rainbow... I've lost the thought. I'm just too tired, I think.