mental illness and astrology

BONZO

Active member
I am interested in studying charts of people who have mental illness of some kind or psychological difficulty to see if there is some kind of repeating marker for it. I believe psychiatrists would understand individuals a lot better if they were trained in natal charts as part of their training to broaden their understanding. They think its genetics, environment and problems at birth but I think the factor they leave out is astrology which individualises rather than boxes you in with one size fits all labels. If any of you have suffered this way and feel comfortable saying your diagnosis and a bit about it and your own interpretation of your difficulties could you please attach your chart.
I am diagnosed with schizophrenia or schizotypal personality disorder. I attach my chart (feel free to comment)
 

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Vista

Well-known member
I am interested in studying charts of people who have mental illness of some kind or psychological difficulty to see if there is some kind of repeating marker for it. I believe psychiatrists would understand individuals a lot better if they were trained in natal charts as part of their training to broaden their understanding. They think its genetics, environment and problems at birth but I think the factor they leave out is astrology which individualises rather than boxes you in with one size fits all labels. If any of you have suffered this way and feel comfortable saying your diagnosis and a bit about it and your own interpretation of your difficulties could you please attach your chart.
I am diagnosed with schizophrenia or schizotypal personality disorder. I attach my chart (feel free to comment)


Marilyn Monroe would be an interesting chart to take a look at to compare. She was diagnosed with Borderline Paranoid Schizophrenia. Now she was also a drug attic and alcoholic so that will color things a bit too. I just got done reading a biography of her. I will see if I can find a chart on her with a birth-time for accuracy.

Here it is: The biggest noteworthy aspect I see with her is a T-Square between her Moon Neptune opposition from Saturn. This would be someone who is very prone to depression(Saturn to Moon) and not one to see things clearly(Moon to Neptune) possibly explaining the paranoid part of her personality. It's interesting to note that both her mother and grandmother were diagnosed with Paranoid Schizophrenia, something she always feared. There were signs early on of her BPS, however it was fueled by her excessive drug and alcohol use. What's more, there were signs of being manic depressive or bipolar as well. It's difficult to really pinpoint ALL of these problems in this chart so one has to wonder if genetics play a bigger role or not? I suspect if she had not become so dependant on drugs and alcohol, that she could have easily managed the BPS.
 

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BONZO

Active member
Thanks for that Vista. I agree with your interpretations. It is an interesting chart for the water grand trine as well as the tsquare. Maybe the manic depression could be explained by jupiter been involved with the moon and the tsquare, causing mania, and then the depression when the saturn kicks in again. I"ll return to that chart again to compare if and when I have more answers. Cheers!
 

BONZO

Active member
I am attaching the chart of Ernest Dowson if anyone is interested. He was a 19th century poet who was obsessed by a girl for years (who most of his poetry is about) who consistently rejected and showed no interest in him. This and depression drove him to alcoholism (which like marilyns chart probably aggravated his natal placements).
He also has a fixed tsquare like Marilyn Monroe, this one involving saturn in scorpio like her and sun / mercury is at the apex of this tsquare where he found his outlet through writing.
The close saturn - pluto opposition especially in fixed signs would probably explain his obsessions
I do not have his birth time so the houses will have to be ignored
 

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waybread

Well-known member
If you go to Astrodienst at www.astro.com and click on Astro-DataBank, you will find thousands of horoscopes. You can search for mental illness, or just look for horoscopes of people you know to be mentally ill.

There is not just one signature, just as there are different types of mental illness.
 

Vista

Well-known member
Thanks for that Vista. I agree with your interpretations. It is an interesting chart for the water grand trine as well as the tsquare. Maybe the manic depression could be explained by jupiter been involved with the moon and the tsquare, causing mania, and then the depression when the saturn kicks in again. I"ll return to that chart again to compare if and when I have more answers. Cheers!


I forgot to mention the Jupiter conjunct Moon. I think the combination of hard aspects involving Jupiter, Moon, and Neptune can also lead to substance abuse. I did notice the water grand trine, although wasn't sure that it had anything to do with her problem. Maybe...
 

Vista

Well-known member
As Waybread suggested, I went to Astodigest and looked up mental illness and abuse, many times they go hand in hand. I started noticing or should I say it confirmed my thoughts that when there was childhood abuse involved that Mars, Uranus and Pluto always seemed to be involved many times either placed in 4th or 12th or ruler of these houses. I usually see Mars in challenging aspect to Uranus or Pluto, sometimes both. When emotional problems are involved, many times you see Moon in hard aspect to Pluto; for depression Saturn in hard aspect to Moon or Mercury, sometimes the Sun; when drug and alcohol abuse are involved, there is a trend of Moon, Jupiter, Neptune(sometimes Mars) in aspect usually challenging ones, but not always.

I found an astounding story in the astro digest(thanks Waybread) that really affected me. I am going to post her chart and her story, which is an unbelievably of abuse, neglect, and incest that led to her complete mental breakdown. I hope you don't mind my hijacking this thread a bit? I find the subject extremely interesting.
 

Vista

Well-known member
The child abuse victim I mentioned above....

Australian victim of child abuse. She was age two when her brother was born and for the next three years she lived in the kitchen cupboard whenever her mom wanted a break, which soon became most of the day. She remained there when her mom went shopping or visiting friends. The cupboard could not be opened from the inside. Occasionally, her brother shared the space but that was rare; it was a lonely, cold, dark place.
Amy's parents continually ran her down, abusing her emotionally and physically. Neighbors were aware that she was being abused but did not "interfere." She lived an existence of destitution, alienation and isolation. Her younger brother became a tormentor as they grew up. He beat her, sexually molested her and tortured her. On one occasion he tied her hands behind her back and threw the rope over a top bar, pulling her up and dropping her down until she passed out. Her dad arrived and swore at the kids as they rushed her to the hospital. She had facial scars and a dislocated shoulder.
As her brother reached puberty, his sexual assaults became more frequent and violent; he "owned" her, and her sense of self-worth was endlessly battered. She had so little self esteem that she could not run away.
Amy eventually escaped with a "nice" man, who seemed to care for her. His girlfriend soon moved in with them and when Amy had a baby, they threw her out and kept the child. When she fought to keep her daughter, her brother joined in the fray, grabbing her by the hair, and they took her screaming to the local psychiatric hospital. She was by then completely irrational, psychotic and destitute, an empty shell.
During treatment, further horrors were revealed. She was sexually assaulted by other patients and staff at the hospital. While still living at home, she had been prostituted by her brother for his friends. Amy was afraid of the dark, of going outside, of enclosed places, of being stared at, being seen by the television; the damage to her psyche was inestimable.
She met a man, a Vietnam vet who was as psychically wounded as she, consumed by the pain of experience and existence. They moved in together; though they hardly spoke, they turned to each other in mute anguish. Amy screamed and cried every day. She began therapy in a psychiatric hospital, though her brother created obstacles to her continued treatment. At the time of the article, she is getting intermittent treatment for her psychosis.
Source Notes
 

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BONZO

Active member
In horrible cases like this Vista it would be interesting to see the synastry and composite charts between her and the family members. We"d obviously expect pluto to be involved, a very spiritually backward unevolved pluto (the only thing about astrology is we can never tell from the charts alone how evolved or unevolved the planets are).
I wonder where the madness would show up in these cases - the natal chart of the one who has been so abysmally treated and goes psychotic due to it or the perpetrators natal chart. Whether the effect of the environment would
supercede the potential of the natal chart in the victim. Its interesting to me how genetics, environment and astrology interweave and how much weight each holds.
Thanks for that. Saturn / chiron 12th opposite uranus / pluto 6th I will note that. You have whetted my appetite for info on this issue I"m now going to try find the chart of Joseph Fritzl and his daughter (the man who kept his daughter locked in a cellar for all her life repeatedly raping her)
 

BONZO

Active member
This is the chart of Elizabeth Fritzl the girl who was abused by her father and locked in a cellar as mentioned above
Those self same aspects crop up the same as the previous case - saturn / chiron opposition uranus / pluto
(time unknown)
(Although of course these aspects are fairly generational and will be shared by many who weren"t abused)
 

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BONZO

Active member
And the composite with her abuser. A close sun-mars -neptune tsquare. (ignore houses)
 

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Vista

Well-known member
In horrible cases like this Vista it would be interesting to see the synastry and composite charts between her and the family members. We"d obviously expect pluto to be involved, a very spiritually backward unevolved pluto (the only thing about astrology is we can never tell from the charts alone how evolved or unevolved the planets are).
I wonder where the madness would show up in these cases - the natal chart of the one who has been so abysmally treated and goes psychotic due to it or the perpetrators natal chart. Whether the effect of the environment would
supercede the potential of the natal chart in the victim. Its interesting to me how genetics, environment and astrology interweave and how much weight each holds.
Thanks for that. Saturn / chiron 12th opposite uranus / pluto 6th I will note that. You have whetted my appetite for info on this issue I"m now going to try find the chart of Joseph Fritzl and his daughter (the man who kept his daughter locked in a cellar for all her life repeatedly raping her)

You made some extremely valid points Bonzo. I used to think the environment would supersede the chart potential, but then again I am not so sure anymore. There is the other part of me that thinks our lives are preordained to unfold they way we were born for them to. Why do the souls pick a difficult life though?

With the charts you posted, yes there are some concerning aspects, especially with her with Mars squaring Moon showing problems with the mother or in her case no mother, and then of course the Ur/Pl opposition to Saturn, Mercury, and Chiron. I think in both cases house placement would be critical. I will have to read about this case.
 

Olivia

Well-known member
I don't believe that souls pick a difficult life, or any particular life, or that the world is just. I do believe there's a purpose to what we go through, but I don't think we ever get to find out - at least not in this world. If there's an afterlife, maybe then. Big if.

One thing I notice in both horrific child abuse charts is the irreceptions - especially the trines and sextiles of planets to their place of detriment or fall, as well as a nasty square or opposition to focus it round. Ugh.

But I don't think anyone would look at them and see the primary problem as psychological - and obviously it wasn't.

Marilyn Monroe's chart (assuming the right timing) doesn't look much like mental illness to me, or if there was, there was certainly a reason for the paranoia - the poor woman seems to have enemies - people meaning her serious harm - around every corner.
 

Vista

Well-known member
I guess it's a matter of opinion and I absolutely believe our lives are preordained, i.e. our natal charts upon our birth and I do believe the soul picks the life it will live.

I agree that you wouldn't think their primary problem was psychological, although there are some hints of it from Saturn in hard aspect to Moon in Marilyn's chart. This aspect is a sign of one prone to depression, which is technically a psychological illness. It was well known and diagnosed that she was ill mentally and wouldn't take her medicine because it caused weight gain. She was on and off it all the time. On top of this, the mental illness was also exasperated with her drug and alcohol abuse. FYI she was followed by the FBI too, which clearly fed the paranoia.
 

Olivia

Well-known member
Oh, I'm with you there on most of our lives are fated, I just don't believe we choose any of it - not a Platonist in that regard. Or that we can even begin to comprehend why many of the things that happen - happen.
 

Aruilly

Well-known member
I believe psychiatrists would understand individuals a lot better if they were trained in natal charts as part of their training to broaden their understanding. They think its genetics, environment and problems at birth but I think the factor they leave out is astrology which individualises rather than boxes you in with one size fits all labels.

Well, Bonzo, I'll politely disagree with you.:smile: When we use astrology to locate psychological disturbs we go about the same way a professional psy doc would, the only difference is that with the natal chart we don't have to rely completely on the reports of the patient and ppl around them. Not to mention the natal chart shows that which the patient probably hides from themselves, but there is always a tendency for this things to be environmental issues. For example (but im not saying that any of these apply here or are 100% garantee) it is possible to see if a child was unwanted by natal configurations like malefics in 12th, damaged moon or venus specially when they are squared by pluto, saturn squares and oppositions which seem to prevail on father issues. But aren't we coming back to the exact same place? The environment? :sideways:

I guess it is rather frustrating to say that your parents or primary caretakers are the source of almost all neurosis but if you think that there will never be another instant where you are as vulnerable than when you were just born it does make sense doesn't it. Every angry word, louder than usual voice or perceived ignoring of the childs needs becomes a wound. And truth be told the average joe or jane will have at least one of this instants where they perceive a slight by the parents. It only gets really bad when genetics come into it. Wanna see? :w00t:

Ex: Average Jane has a kid and well, she is stressed out by the job, her husbands newfound jeaulosy of her attentions to the child but she is able to give them both attention. She might have those moments where she wants to toss the baby out the window, she might ignore the kid once or twice, but she loves them dearly and will do her best. Score: 1 or 2 noias, mostly healthy, venus trine moon, maybe a sun square for jealous father.

Ex2: Borderline Jane had a kid even if she was strongly adviced NOT to. Anyway, she loves the kid and she is not lying, she really does. But everytime the child cries her mood starts swinging badly so she has to get away from it and the kid doesnt understand why one moment her mother is there loving her and the very next is gone. Then she comes back and acts coldly then moves away again only to come back some moments later loving her again.:unsure: Did you say WTF? well so did this kid. Score: 4 or 5 noias, uranus square moon, serious candidate for boderline personality disorder not only for carrying the gene but also crazy environment. Might have sun square moon or venus because daddy didnt know how to handle mom. :joyful:

Or might have nothing at all! Who knows LOL. Of course that this is short and simplified because charts like these have more squares and oppositions also trines and sextiles. To be honest have loads more to say specially the relevance of the birth experience but the post is huge as it is. Anyway, to some degree I see psychology methods as forms of astrology in disguise. Jung showed this when he fused the two in archetypes.

For your chart, I would have liked to analyze it but schizophrenia and schizotypal personality disorder are not exactly THE same thing and they would need different forms of looking at the chart.

Best regards, Aruilly
 

Olivia

Well-known member
I googled Saturn conjunct Moon recently and someone asked if it relates to insanity. In the past some astrologers said it did (I don't know the validity of this).

I've looked at charts for those who were mentally ill and since there are so many types of mental illnesses that exist, I'm not sure if there are indicators in a chart for general mental illness.


I loathe making blanket statements about aspects - and even the ancients would have wanted to see something repeat at least three times for it to have predictive value.

But Moon/Saturn conjunct on an angle or in 8 in a night chart with no mitigation (hope that's enough disclaimers) can indicate death by grief of mind, or grief of mind to the point of insanity.

Now, it does that because you grew up in a war zone and were tied up and tortured and raped along with your mother and sisters, and then you watched your captors torture and kill your father and brothers (who got to watch you being tortured and violated first), then they set fire to the house, and it's a miracle you lived, and life just got worse from there.

It happens in the 'civilised' world, too. I had a client, lovely lady, who on the same day: lost her second child to leukaemia, the child was age 3, she'd lost the first to leukaemia two years before, was diagnosed with lupus herself, her best friend was murdered, her ex-husband had her served with papers to try and get custody of their one remaining child, and - her priest raped her in the guise of 'comforting' her. When she got out of the mental institution (are you shocked? you shouldn't be), and pursued the matter with the bishopric, the priest was promoted to bishop, and the woman was excommunicated, even though it had come out that he had quite the history of sexually abusing and raping his parishoners.

Her life was a series of tragedies both before and after that, but that was the low point.

And this was a nurse practitioner and midwife, not some uneducated git living in some Deliverance-style backwater. It happens, sadly, so you can't really dismiss it.

I've seen so many clients who've had that kind of misfortune, both in the middle east and in the west, that I'm utterly loathe to start in with explanations of karma, or choosing one's life before birth, or spiritual evolution and other such things. We're not talking about manipulative people, people trying to one-up on the 'I had the worst life' scale, we're talking about fundamentally good people caught in hideous circumstance. Life is not fair, and the world is not just.

When you've got that kind of configuration, it may lead to mental illness, but I'm loathe to call mental illness the basic problem. It's usually not, nor is the root of it psychic. It's just that tragedy after tragedy eventually takes its toll and drives you mad.

For actual mental imbalance that doesn't seem to come out of life circumstances, you'd want to look at the Moon, Mercury, and the almuten of the two, probably the ascendant and ascendant ruler as well (this can be helpful in distinguishing if an illness is of the soul or of the body), and the 8th, 6th, and 12th houses.

Medical terminology was also very different to what we use now, and I don't just mean things like psistis and impostumes. A disease of the body could be cured by medical means - so if your hallucinations were curable by medical treatment, then it was a 'disease of the body'. On the other hand, a chart might show that your stomach pains were resistant to medical treatment, so that made them 'a disease of the soul' and the doctor would send you to the local priest.

Okay, I'll try and climb down off the soapbox now.
 

Olivia

Well-known member
Thank you Olivia.

I have this aspect and its why I mentioned it. Usually interpretations say that the person themselves is selfish or paying some karmic debt. I didn't explain my perspective well on the traditionalist/modern thread, I don't agree with choosing ones life path or karmic debts. I believe in the possibility of karma, and I'll consider some a bit of fate, but thats as far as I'll go with it. I don't think the world is just, and I think there is free will, but when negative experiences happen I blame it on other people negatively using their free will, rather then a higher power or the stars inflicting it.

I've been through negative experiences, not comparable to what you mentioned, but enough for it to have taken a toll on my well being. Although I'm optimistic and believe I could improve things.

I appreciate your comment on this aspect.

What I dislike intensely about many modern astrological explanations of personal tragedy is that most of them are just new ways - or old recycled ways - of blaming people for misfortunes over which they had no control whatsoever. Some of them as solipsistic as 'if you hadn't had such a negative attitude...', etc.

Most of which can be translated as: I'm better/more evolved than that guy, so it won't happen to me. But just in case it's catching, maybe I ought to stay away from him and from people like that.

That kind of astrology crumbles both in the context of my own life, and in the context of many of my clients' lives. It provides nothing constructive, usually just some psychobabble about states of mind or emotional perceptions of events, or it's damning in its determinism that if you have x in aspect to y on z angle, you will spend your life acting out in various ways on account of unresolved issues with your father.

That kind of determinism is, to me, far worse than anything traditional astrology has ever come up with. I grant, we're all responsible for our own actions, and sadly, we're responsible for our lives even when other people have done a great deal to destroy them, excruciating as that is at times. But at least in the traditional variety of astrology, you're not damned by psychology.

There are character components, certainly, and ways of improving character - but unless you've got a chart like Hitler's and are born in the right place and time for it to manifest to its full horror - your psychology isn't determined. Temperament, yes, which is a kind of general way of perceiving things, but even that's got some freedom to it - even if you're predominantly one temperament, you probably have traces of others. One of my teachers said it was like a bag of 100 marbles - and you can reach in and pull out a different temperament marble to deal with a different situation - which I appreciate, and happen to agree with.

Fate - you really can't escape, and there's a fair amount of it anyone's life. But I can't imagine a decent traditional astrologer telling you that you're in some way psychologically or emotionally fated.
 
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