Marilyn Monroe

[ElenaJ]

In turn I'm thanking piercethevale, for the explanation about transition from ascendent through to descendent, passing through the MC.
Very interesting concept, which I had never before heard.

For the rest, very interesting reading, but I will leave it up to piercethevale, and to the Marilyn expert, Ukpoohbear for comments.
Looking forward to hearing the replies.

 

[piercethevale]

In turn I'm thanking piercethevale, for the explanation about transition from ascendent through to descendent, passing through the MC.
Very interesting concept, which I had never before heard.

For the rest, very interesting reading, but I will leave it up to piercethevale, and to the Marilyn expert, Ukpoohbear for comments.
Looking forward to hearing the replies.

Dane Rudyhar explains the process of transformation in his book "An Astrological Mandala. The Cycle Of Transformation And Its 360 Symbolic Phases", in Part Three, Chapter Three, which is titled "The Cross and the Star."
The "Cross" is referring to the chart axis and He explains how the four points of it, the Asc., the Desc., the I.C. and the M.C. represent, in the same order, the "WHO",the "WHERE-TO", the "HOW" and the "WHY" of ones natal chart, The "Star" is referring to a pentagram constructed to the M.C. pointing upwards at the M.C.. There are 72 perfect pentagrams in the 360 symbols, and each one can be turned as to where any of its five points is on the M.C. Marc Edmond Jones discovered that each of the 72 is also the outline of a perfect plot line for a story and made a good deal of money selling scripts to Hollywood for years there after.

Dane, however, doesn't elaborate much on the "Star". He also implied, but never said, that the Sabian Symbols can also represent a cycle of transformation in reverse and that begins at the 30th degree of Virgo. The alternative cycle is the transformation that frees one from Maya, i.e. materiality, from birth and rebirth, and when that cycle is applied to ones' natal chart the roles of the M.C. and the I.C. are reversed.
Read the Sabian Symbol for the 30th degree of Pisces and you might realize that it is a symbol of becoming stuck in materiality. Then compare it to the 1st degree of Libra which is a symbol of being freed from the material realm.

You will find the complete book of Rudhyar's, all except chapter two of Part Three, [which is a chapter explaining how Dane perceived certain forms of yoga associated with six pairs of the Zodiacal Signs. It seems a bit confusing to most people anyways and probably is for the best that they decided to exclude it. I've been practicing yoga since 1968 and I didn't get it immediately. Dane was highly intelligent and extremely well studied in philosophy and symbolism] at this link: http://www.mindfire.ca/An Astrological Mandala/An Astrological Mandala - Contents.htm.

You can also read what I wrote about it in this forum in a thread titled "The Birth Chart of Jesus?" that is in the Degree Symbols sub-forum, or you can listen to a narrative I give at the following youtube link. Member Phoenix Venus made the video and put together a visual slide presentation to go along with the narrative I supplied her with. She did a swell job of it too. It's about a half hour in length. Thank you for your interest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYsX4qsr8zY&list=PLu0W-_kQdNgDFI3VC01xhEq37WHlZwyI

 

[ElenaJ]

Interesting video.
My pluto is conjunct ascendent!

 

[piercethevale]

As I wrote above, there are so many quintiles in Marilyn's natal chart and a number of them are involved in a perfect pentagram that is centered on Her I.C. A downward pointing pentagram...!!! I have found from long observation that the Chart axis is as important as the planets to be found in a natal chart. The four points don't exude any influence of their own into physical space but the have influence upon the chart individual as for what those four points represent and what they represent through the Sabian Symbol found for each of them.

So, even though there s no transiting object, or any other transiting influence, such as Lilith or the Nodes of the Moon, for two examples, it does complete this pentagram that involves the Sun in the 11th degree of Gemini, Neptune in the 23rd of Leo, and then an I.C. in the 5th of Scorpio, the Moons' S. Node in the 17th degree of Capricorn, and Uranus in the 29th of Pisces. The Sun is also conjunct Mercury and Neptune with Ceres. In addition the Moons' N. Node is in a perfect semi-quintile with the Sun and Neptune and as Uranus is quintile the S. Node it is thus tredecile to the N.Node which I believe indicates Marilyn likely had some measure of clairvoyant abilities. See my thread titled "The Clairvoyants' Trine" for more about that. Also, in addition, the Moon and Jupiter have a conjunction of which the mid-point is right around 22° Aquarius 55' and that brings them both into this matrix also as that is a perfect point of semi-quintile to Uranus and the S. Node.

This is a real "Mind Blower" here.

A downward pointing pentagram along with Lilith on Her Asc...?!?!?!
Who was this woman and all the more what was her spiritual orientation?
I'm seeing a femme fatale unequaled and Jezebel, step down, cause if EVER SHE WAS BORN, it had to have been Marilyn Monroe, is what I'm thinking.
Lilith in the flesh... my, my, my...

 

[piercethevale]

Interesting video.
My pluto is conjunct ascendent!

Cool... how close a conjunction is it?

 

[ElenaJ]

Three degrees, but it is retrograde so backing towards the cusp.

 

[Ukpoohbear]

Thank you so much for your observations on MM. I will reply in more detail this weekend, but what I really love about what you have picked up on about her chart, is that I indeed believe MM to be a lightworker and I do believe she was psychic as well.

I have came across some newspaper articles written around the mid 50s, when she was a young starlet in Hollywood, that talk about her mysteriousness and have all sorts of question’s and accusations about who or what she is, simply because she was not of this world!

From what I understood from your post, it seemed the Sabian symbols are able to point out the spiritual evolution of a human and that it pointed to Marilyn having surpassed the normal needs or wants of a human, and who was there to give of herself to the world generously.

That makes perfect sense to me with the Bohemian Marilyn I know, who, as she said, belonged to nobody, and so gave her heart to the public.

‘I knew I belonged to the public and to the world, not because I was talented or even beautiful, but because I had never belonged to anything or anyone else.’
— Marilyn Monroe

And yes, Marilyn in the flesh, I still struggle to describe her beauty and sexuality, because it is a mix of innocence and hell. It is both available within reach, and mysterious and far away.

Marilyn as a lightworker, she is a symbol for me of a survivor.

 

[piercethevale]

I forgot to add, to my post above about this pentagram, that for the reason the 5th degree of Scorpio is the perfect degree to fit this pattern, and that all the other factors are in the perfect degrees respectfully, I would say that it is very, very, much likely that is the correct degree to be found for Marilyn's I.C.
I think she was born to fulfill a destiny... her's was no random birth, imho.

 

[Ukpoohbear]

So, just to confirm, what would you say is probably MM’s correct birth time?

 

[piercethevale]

Thank you so much for your observations on MM. I will reply in more detail this weekend, but what I really love about what you have picked up on about her chart, is that I indeed believe MM to be a lightworker and I do believe she was psychic as well.

I have came across some newspaper articles written around the mid 50s, when she was a young starlet in Hollywood, that talk about her mysteriousness and have all sorts of question’s and accusations about who or what she is, simply because she was not of this world!

From what I understood from your post, it seemed the Sabian symbols are able to point out the spiritual evolution of a human and that it pointed to Marilyn having surpassed the normal needs or wants of a human, and who was there to give of herself to the world generously.

That makes perfect sense to me with the Bohemian Marilyn I know, who, as she said, belonged to nobody, and so gave her heart to the public.

‘I knew I belonged to the public and to the world, not because I was talented or even beautiful, but because I had never belonged to anything or anyone else.’
— Marilyn Monroe

And yes, Marilyn in the flesh, I still struggle to describe her beauty and sexuality, because it is a mix of innocence and hell. It is both available within reach, and mysterious and far away.

Marilyn as a lightworker, she is a symbol for me of a survivor.

I hadn't spent much time thinking about the clairvoyant possibilities but as I now realize that Neptune is also involved in a quintile tredecile aspect with the Nodes along with being in perfect bi-quintile aspect to Uranus, I would have to say that she was highly clairvoyant, HIGHLY.

I'm going to try to run this by my clairvoyant friend, Clarisse Conner, and see what she might say? She doesn't really want to get involved with astrological matters so much as it kind of causes a bias, as she tired to get me to understand why. She wishes to remain as innocent of certain practices and knowledge's as is possible so as to remain the clearest channel she possibly can. I know that she already gave the nod to this concept but I'm curious as to just how much clairvoyant ability Marilyn might have had?

 

[piercethevale]

So, just to confirm, what would you say is probably MM’s correct birth time?

Just what I wrote. Somewhere between those two charts I posted and more than likely with the I.C. in the 5th of Scorpio. I would have to study Her for months before I would even think of attempting to get the exact time....maybe even years?
In fact, I think it would be an impossibility to get it down to the exact second as, IMHO, I think there is too much false information about the woman too proceed with trying to know her intimately enough.

The matter with finding the exact time of the Nazarene's birth was different. I've got that down to a seven second window.

 

[Ukpoohbear]

As for the psychic friend you are going to speak with, it might be interesting to share my own meditative finding about Marilyn and her reincarnations. When I was in deep enough meditation to be able to ask some question’s to a guide, I asked what was wrong with Marilyn at her soul and I got the, by now, well known answer that who she was inside was so deeply distant from the projected image of herself, that she felt so unloved and broken, and was such a contrast, even thigh it was a well known answer for her, the apparent ness of it shocked me.

The second question I asked was if MM has reincarnated. The image I got was of a little girl’s hand trailing itself along a gate, as if skipping, but with an overall feeling of childlike innocence and enjoyment. So I believe MM has been reincarnated again as a little girl and seems to be enjoying herself, which should help her heal that fractured sense of self she had.

Maybe she will meet some past life lovers like Arthur Miller who uses her terribly and he will get his cumupance. Maybe she will come across the image of who she was, and I wonder what she will think.

 

[david starling]

As for the psychic friend you are going to speak with, it might be interesting to share my own meditative finding about Marilyn and her reincarnations. When I was in deep enough [medication] to be able to ask some question’s to a guide, I asked what was wrong with Marilyn at her soul and I got the, by now, well known answer that who she was inside was so deeply distant from the projected image of herself, that she felt so unloved and broken, and was such a contrast, even thigh it was a well known answer for her, the apparent ness of it shocked me.

The second question I asked was if MM has reincarnated. The image I got was of a little girl’s hand trailing itself along a gate, as if skipping, but with an overall feeling of childlike innocence and enjoyment. So I believe MM has been reincarnated again as a little girl and seems to be enjoying herself, which should help her heal that fractured sense of self she had.

Maybe she will meet some past life lovers like Arthur Miller who uses her terribly and he will get his cumupance. Maybe she will come across the image of who she was, and I wonder what she will think.

Typo?

 

[Ukpoohbear]

Typo?

Thanks, sorted

 

[piercethevale]

As for the psychic friend you are going to speak with, it might be interesting to share my own meditative finding about Marilyn and her reincarnations. When I was in deep enough meditation to be able to ask some question’s to a guide, I asked what was wrong with Marilyn at her soul and I got the, by now, well known answer that who she was inside was so deeply distant from the projected image of herself, that she felt so unloved and broken, and was such a contrast, even thigh it was a well known answer for her, the apparent ness of it shocked me.

The second question I asked was if MM has reincarnated. The image I got was of a little girl’s hand trailing itself along a gate, as if skipping, but with an overall feeling of childlike innocence and enjoyment. So I believe MM has been reincarnated again as a little girl and seems to be enjoying herself, which should help her heal that fractured sense of self she had.

Maybe she will meet some past life lovers like Arthur Miller who uses her terribly and he will get his [cumupance]. Maybe she will come across the image of who she was, and I wonder what she will think.

Someone with the degree of clairvoyance that I think that this woman may have had, that got around in the circles [I had written, 'ran around in circles', and thought to myself...] that She did, that may have also had that 30th degree of Leo in her natal chart...? Well, put 2 and 2 together and see what that adds up to. [Late edit] Not to mention that the "clairvoyant's trine", that I mentioned, although in this case it is more of a "Clairvoyants mystic rectangle", [or 'rectanglement', might be a better way to put it?] and that it is integrated into that downward pointing pentagram [read the aforementioned chapter three, "The Cross and the Star", in Part Three of Rudhyar's book, "An Astrological Mandala", as for what a downward pointing pentagram is significant of, if you don't know already?]. So, maybe I should have written, "put three and three together" and what does that add up to? A. Sex-tiles, Sex-tales, Sex-tiles. [Hey, Sigmund, what about ME!?!]

...and I must say, Freud would have had a field day with you this past evening.

 

[piercethevale]

Well, I cast some more charts so as to see what the latest time was that the 5th of Scorpio remained as the I.C. and what was the earliest time that the 30th of Leo remained as the Part of Destiny.
What I came out with is 9:26:07 a.m. for the former and 9:36:09 for the latter.

So, as much as I would have liked to seen both on Her natal chart, that just wasn't to be. I knew it before I started casting charts but I had to see how close they came to one another in time, which amounts to a separation of ten minutes and two seconds in time.

Presently, I'm more partial to finding the 5th of Leo on Her natal chart than having the chart produce the 30th of Leo for a Part of Destiny.
Why? For two reasons. The first of which is, because I have seen more often than not, such configurations, matrices such as this downward pointing pentagram, to be perfectly symmetrical when it involves someone as significant a public, more of a societal figure [and multi generational at that, as Her films live on long after her demise] influence as Marilyn was [she might even be considered a "World Server" in some way? As for she may have laid her life on the altar, so to speak, to eventually demonstrate the evil to be found within the American political system, if she was indeed murdered, or took her own life even because of the politics, as she may have gotten herself into a fix and had no other way out?]. As the other astrological forces [the planets and the Nodes] are all in perfect symmetry, to my experience, it stands to reason that the I.C., being the only influence occupying that point of the pentagram matrix, then would also be in such perfect symmetry. [Recall what I wrote about perfect pentagrams revealing a perfect plot line] In a way, it seems that the greatest role Marilyn ever played might have been that of her own self.

The second reason is that, so far in all my studies of nearly 38 years, I have only recognized the veracity of a Sabian Symbol for the Part of Destiny from two natal charts. That of my own and that of the natal chart, I produced and contend is the true natal chart, of Jesus/Yeshu'a of Nazareth. It is one of the most daunting of Astrological Parts to recognize the validity within the Sabian Symbol found for the Sign and degree it is in for all but ones' own chart, and even then it might take nearly a lifetime to recognize it, and someone such as Jesus/Yeshu'a of Nazareth. If anyone is curious as to why I could recognize the Part of Destiny for Yeshu'a and that of my own for myself, as being verace to the Sabian Symbols found to be given for those degrees, you can read what those symbols are for yourselves, as this thread is about Marilyn Monroe, and the Part of Destiny for Yeshu'a is at 13° Capricorn 13' 17", which is the 14th degree of Capricorn [Btw, the composite chart I have with Him produces a Part of Destiny in the degree that follows, i. e. the 15th of Cap.], and mine is at 16° Scorpio 32' 12", the 17th degree of Scorpio, [and if you do look up mine please keep in mind that I was born and raised in the Quaker faith, that we Quakers are to believe that we are to "listen to the inner voice and recognize it as the voice of God", that I became a yogi at age 15, a Sishya of the bij {the Logos, OM}, according to Swami Sivananda of the Japa Order of Yoga, the "word of God is my only guru and my true, and only, Satguru." My Asc. also happens to be he 18th of Scorpio, btw, and I already mentioned that my M.C. and Part of Fortune are both in the 25th deg. of Leo. Sun in 17th of Taurus and Moon in 25th of Aquarius. There's some more "symmetry" for you all.]

If I'm correct about the I.C. being in the 5th of Scorpio then that produces a Part of Destiny in either the 26th or the 27th degree of Leo. I wrote earlier that I had a hard time seeing it fit to the the Sabian Symbol for the 27th of Leo, but I also just wrote admitting how difficult it has been for me to recognize the veracity of a Sabian Symbol given for a natal charts' Part of Destiny. Like the Hermetic Lot of Nemesis, aka the Part of Sudden Advancement, it may take the entire lifetime, or a good portion of it, to recognize. As for the Sabian Symbol of the Hermetic Lot being the persons nemesis, or their "sudden advancement", might only be so accurately determined at the end of that persons life.
The earliest time possible for the 5th of Scorpio as the chart I.C. was at 9:22:17 a.m. and that gives an Asc. at 11° Leo 28' 41", i.e. the 12th deg. of Leo, and the latest time that the 5th of Scorpio was still found to be the where the I.C. is placed was at 9:26:07 a.m. and the Asc. is found to be at 12° Leo 16' 05", i.e. the 13th deg. of Leo, and the Part of Fortune for either is in the 21st degree of Aries, regardless.

As for her having the 30th of Leo as her Part of Destiny the earliest time was at 9:36:09 a.m. and the latest was at 9:40:41 a.m.
For the earliest time that gives an Asc. at 14° Leo 26' 20", i.e. the 15th deg. of Leo, the I.C. at 07° Scorp. 43' 00", and a Part of Fortune at 23° Aries 09' 16", i.e. the 24th of Aries.
For the latest possible time to still have the Part of Destiny in the 30th deg. of Leo, that gives us an Asc. at 15° Leo 16' 14", i.e. the 16th deg. of Leo, the I.C. at 08° Scorp. 45' 07", with a Part of Fortune at 24° Aries 01' 23", which is the 25th deg. of Aries. But I have to think that a time as late as anything past 9:38 or 9:39, definitely if it was after 9:40, that her recorded birth time would've been given in approximation as 9:45.

As you can see by the above demonstrations that even as little as a second or two in recorded time can make a difference as to what is to be found in a natal chart. Thus demonstrating why Astrologers, until recently, didn't know what many of the Astrological Parts truly are, or have any certainty as to what degree any of them were to be found in in a natal chart. Given that their estimations of latitude and longitude were likely just as bad as their estimations of the accurate time exacerbated the problem all the more for the worse. All together being a reason why one should forget about what Paulus Alexandrus, the Abbasid Arabs, Bonatti, Lilly, even Pythagoras wrote concerning astrology. We can thank them for being scribes that preserved some of the knowledge of astrology as it was once a recognized, and a legitimate science in a time of great antiquity. In such a time astrology was very likely recognized as the "Mother of All Science", as Dane Rudhyar predicted it will one day be once again. We even have to toss aside what, our own contemporary, Robert Zoeller wrote about, the so called, Arabic Parts, as it is merely a compendium of what the Greeks, the Romans, the Arabs, and the Italians before him all wrote and as for what the rest of that book goes on about, please let me know if anyone ever does figure that out. I do remember finding some things in that book to have redeeming qualities but, even for the life of me, I can't remember what they were at present... and, please do away with the nonsense of reversing formulae for night births. That is so wrong. What should one do if the person is born at exactly Sunset, as like my self, when the Sun is half above and half below the horizon... not to even begin to get into the phenomena caused by refraction when the Sun still appears to be above the horizon even though it is below after it has set or is about to rise. Though refraction in ordinary atmospheric conditions will produce a sighting that is about a half degree off, the Novaya Zemla effect can produce sightings as much as even five degrees off being also evident why the ancients that came up with the idea that some formulae needed to be reversed at Sunrise and Sunset, should be, for the best, forgotten about.

We just recently came into the age where precise GPS location and precise time of day can be utilized in casting natal charts. Think for yourselves and ignore the chastisement of the "Traditionalists" and others that attempt to get you to stick with wrongful practices, they are already a dying breed, and some haven't even woke up to the fact yet. [Talk about "Woke"?. That's really "Woke"] As I have been demonstrating the validity of the Sabian Symbols for the last 17 years, a little more that 13 of them here at this forum, and that Astrological Parts are symbolically significant, when the Sabian Symbols are utilized in conjunction with them, should be enough to convince some that the Sabian Symbols are the ultimate tool for rectification.

So, that's what all I can contribute to this thread at this time. There's quite a list of possibilities to be found for all the different possibilities regarding what degree for the Asc., and Desc., the same for the M.C. and I.C., the various degree the Parts might be found in, and the Sabian Symbolism that could be involved, and all of that in just a span of about 16 minutes.
You could spend a lot of time sorting it all out, or you might get lucky and "see it" immediately, but I will wager dollars to donuts [a phrase I began using back when donuts were about 10 cents. Which isn't relevant anymore...but I still like using the expression.] that the exact time isn't precisely 9:30 a.m., as even a few seconds one way or the other can make a significant difference as to understanding the person in question.

Well, the sun is up, it's past 7 a.m. here and I've, once again, spent the entire night at this keyboard. It's been a slice, but it's time for me to get some Z's

 

[piercethevale]

Well, I'll just have to put off hitting the hay just a few more minutes as I almost forgot that I meant to post those extra charts I cast, some of them anyways.

Here's the one for the earliest time that a Part of Destiny could occur in the 30th degree of Leo

and for the latest it could occur

and the chart for the earliest an I.C. in the 5th of Scorpio did occur

...and the latest it could occur at

 

[piercethevale]

Well now, as it seems that I drank too much coffee throgh the night to presently fall asleep, I thought that I might spend the meantime doing something constuctive and decideded to look at those Sabian Symbols, the five, that are involved with that downward pointing Pentagram.
The question is, though... which one do I start with and how to proceed thereafter?

I know that my friend, fellow astrologer, and member of this forum, Phoenix Venus would likely say to start with one at the base of the star and then proceed as to every other one. But which one at the base, and by at the base, I mean the point in the 11th of Gemini, where the Sun is, or that at the 29th degree of Pisces, where Uranus is?
Well, since I put it that way, it seems that the point where the Sun is to be the one, as the Sun is the ego and most things begin with the ego, especially matters pertaining to downward pointing pentagrams centered on the nadir of a chart, the "HOW" of all mundane concerns concerning the chart axis.

So, let me proceed in that manner and if it doesn't seem right to anyone of you, then do it the way it seems to make sense to you. These five Sabian Symbols I'm about to post here do give the outline of a perfect plotline for a story. but in what order do they fit the story of Marilyn's life? That's what I don't know as for knowing so little about her and I did proceed with my contributions here last night "in the blind" as ukpoohbear suggested. That is I didn't read any of the posts past the third or fourth, somewhere about there, on the 1st page of this thread.
So, with out further ado...

[ibid.]

"GEMINI 11: NEWLY OPENED LANDS OFFER THE PIONEER NEW OPPORTUNITIES FOR EXPERIENCE.

KEYNOTE: The power and joy of new beginnings.

These 'newly opened lands' can refer to any as yet unexperienced field of potential activity at any level — material, emotional, mental or supermental. We are now dealing with the third level of experience, at which individuality — or at least the ego character — operates more definitely. While in the preceding phases much was said concerning the powers of the mind, this mind was essentially based on the collective patterns of a culture and a society. Now, at this third level, we find the human being essentially engaged in his personal and particular struggle for full and effective individualization. And the initial realization he has to experience is that he has reached a potentially virgin field of consciousness and activity. He is facing the unfamiliar. Anything could happen.

This is the first stage of the fifteenth five-fold sequence of symbols. Having conquered, at least to some extent, the collective and material energies of nature and society, man has become relatively 'separate' from the past. He faces the future. Every step ahead should show him RISING TO THE OCCASION"

[Now, i find the following to be most interesting, and quite appropriate. ptv]

"CAPRICORN 17°: A REPRESSED WOMAN FINDS A PSYCHOLOGICAL RELEASE IN NUDISM.

KEYNOTE: The escape from bondage to social inhibitions and a reliance upon the wisdom of the body.

Under the pressure of religions that have created a sharp and unwholesome division between soul and body, society has produced strict codes of values regarding the play of natural instincts, and has glorified them under the name of 'decency' and 'modesty'. The growing trend toward nudism — which of course has nothing to do with the "pornographic" display of one's body — is a welcome protest against the depressing and neurosis-generating puritanism of the past. Men and women are demanding a psychologically as well as physically healthful freedom of the body as a means of overcoming the hypocrisy and constrictions of social behavior.

In this second stage symbol we see how our society has been able to repress and distort the natural activity of the human body and its sensitivity to the elements. Thus a contrast is established between healthy youth at play and the neurotic subservience to a socio-religious tradition. The symbol is a call for RELEASE FROM INHIBITIONS."

[The third point in this proposed sequence is...]

"LEO 23°: IN A CIRCUS THE BAREBACK RIDER DISPLAYS HER DANGEROUS SKILL.

KEYNOTE: The audacity and perseverance required to control and play with the powerful energies of the vital realm in human existence.

The horse has always been the symbol of the vital energies. In a wild state the horse represents the magnificent, raw, impetuous energy of the libido in all its forms. When tamed, this energy is put to man's service. There are men who have dominated their natural energies so well that they can perform spectacular feats. Here these achievements are seen within the context of a social function and expressing a flair for dramatics.

At this third stage, the ego is in control; he is a great showman, but he serves a purpose. The performance stirs the imagination of the young consciousness. It raises the mind above the commonplace. The Keyword is VIRTUOSITY.

[Did you all catch that about the the horse and what it represents when in its wild state, performing, and a flair for dramatics? I've got nothing to add other than, WOW! ]

[Next up in this sequence is...]

"PISCES 29°: LIGHT BREAKING INTO MANY COLORS THROUGH A PRISM.

KEYNOTE: The analytical power of the mind necessary for the formulation of life processes in their many aspects.

Cycles of existence begin in unity and end in what I have called 'multi-unity'. At the stage of consummation the many individual differences are totaled; they constitute a sum. Within that sum — a unified total — the inevitability of the future process of differentiation is implied, because every cycle leaves a mass of waste products slowly returning to the unconscious state of chemical matter, of 'humus'. What the symbol tells us is that unity will always break again into multiplicity. The 'prism' is always there. There is no absolute unity; if anything could be called 'absolute' it is the relationship between the One and the Many.

This fourth stage symbol of the concluding five-fold sequence of phases points to the fundamental type of operation in all modes of existence. The most beautiful and seemingly everlasting experience of unity will in time be superseded by the need to attend to a multiplicity of details. Existence implies DIFFERENTIATION. "

[and the last in my proposed sequence of the five points of this inverted, nadir centered, pentagram found on Marilyn Monroe's natal chart, That is if the nadir is indeed in the 5th degree of Scorpio. Ideally it should be and I think that it likely is, but the earliest chart I proposed as a possibility would yield, although very briefly in time, the 4th degree of Scorpio for the nadir to as much, in the latest proposed possibility, as to be in the 9th deg. of Scorpio. The other four Sabian Symbols I just presented are a 'sure deal", it's the nadir , the I.C., that is questionable due to the possibilities as to when was the actual time of birth? Right here may be the best shot at true rectification. Which of the degrees yields a Sabian Symbol appropriate to the nadir, and it's inherent symbolism both as the "HOW" and as the "WHY" of the natal chart and also appropriate to the plot line of this story about the mundane affairs of the life of Marilyn Monroe? You be the judge but I'm only going to post the one that completes a perfect pentagram, you''ll have to look up and read about any of the others that you wish to. ptv]

"SCORPIO 5°: A MASSIVE ROCKY SHORE RESISTS THE POUNDING OF THE SEA.

KEYNOTE: The inertia of all institutionalized procedures.

Slow is the rise of the land from the vast ocean, but once it is formed it develops a formidable resistance to change in spite of storms. Likewise, once a culture has expressed its basic symbols and its particular way of thinking, feeling and acting in concrete institutions, these change very slowly indeed. The individual who came to the great city (Scorpio i° symbol) soon finds his life set by the rhythms of city living, which obliterate vaster life processes and the moving tides of evolution.

This is the last of the five symbols of the forty-third sequence. We see in it how binding and resistant a communal way of life can become. In this there is strength and stability, and these are necessary factors in the social life of man — until new horizons beckon. The Keyword is STABILITY."

 

[Ukpoohbear]

Marilyn - a Gemini - could not find her grounding in life. Vulnerable,

had few boundaries., intelligent as most Gemini are. , married a writer screenplay author - once accused Communist during the McCarthy scandal hearings - (a Senator who ruined Hollywood people and their reputations by promoting "the Red Scare" in the Cold War years - he tried to ruin Arthur Miller too, to add to a heap of ruined lives. There was a great movie made of this time and these many celebrities called "TRUMBO " years ago. I saw it on a long overseas plane trip from Egypt. It's worth renting. Its a true story.


Many popular stars were actually the pits of society and were backbiters, harming their co-stars then and people who trusted them. All because of their politics and their own philosophies. It was a TERRIBLE dark time in history, much like the past few yrs will also be judged eventually too.




Arthur Miller was famous and wrote a play/story for Marilyn called "the Misfits". She did get pregnant but lost the baby. She was always upset about not having her own child.


My guess is of course he loved the way she looked, but he rcognized her intelligence too.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in...ists?msclkid=946d8522b14911ecb760129558011e3b



Joe DeMaggio adored her - but the marriage like the others did not last long. When she died that day, one of last phone calls she made was to Joe DeMaggio Jr. the son who the father abandoned. ...they stayed close friends all her life after the divorce from his father.


I tend to shy away from friendships with Geminis of any duration. Often two personalities...but that doesn't mean I can't admire their intellect.


Elizabeth Taylor was best friends with Debbie Reynold, the actress for years. Through Debbie and her husband Eddie Fisher, the singer - came a thick friendship while Elizabeth was married to her own husband who died. After that husband died in a plane crash, Eddie Fisher consoled her, but he also had an affair with her under the nose of her once best friend Debbie Reynolds, (Princess Leia's mother)


It was a terrible scandal at the time. ....but as things go, Debbie was far better off ridding herself of Eddie Fisher, as he drank as an alcoholic. As a matter of fact, so did Liz & Richard Burton, they met during her movie, Cleopatra, where she told the producer, (as a joke), I'll only do the movie if you pay me a Million dollars -....and he did! She was the first in Hollywood history to get a million for a movie role. The movie didn't make any movie for the producers - and Eddie Fisher lost his love Elizabeth to her new paramour on the movie set who played Mark Antony "Richard Burton" the English Shakespearean actor.



They married, and both of them always drunk - starting commotions and drank like fish, then divorced after some years and a few adoptions of kids. They also remarried (so were married twice)

Apparently Richard truly loved her and she truly loved him, but they couldn't make it together. They each "remarried" again.

Weren't they both water signs? I think so.




That's all I have to offer.

Hi Leomoon. First of all, thank you for answering what you knew of Marilyn Monroe and also Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton, and apologies for the delay in responding to it.

I absolutely loved one of your first comments about MM having no boundaries. I think this indeed does some up what her psychological problem was but also what made her able to connect with a vast audience - not just on screen but with the general public at large, so much so, she still incites interest to this day.

I have a fondness right now of concentrating on one aspect of a chart and using it as a summation of the whole theme of a person. I have never been one for the details, even though I see the value in it and respect people who are more inclined that way. And so, I see a lot of value in your first phrase about MM - she was a Gemini. This sums up what her main issue was. Clearly but concisely put - the character that MM projected to the world - Marilyn Monroe - confident and happy - was so far removed from who she was inside - Norma Jeane - a lost little waif. Although that there were two versions of her is widely known and often said, a typical of a Gemini, it is also precisely the truth.

Marilyn was a Gemini - what people saw, was not how she felt about herself inside. She also had a lack of boundaries, as said before. Those two simple truth’s are so very apt about what cause her pain and caused us (the public) the fascination.

I could write more about her so that I may try and capture her magic with words (as so many have tried before me with varying degrees of success). And I will try, because I am inspired enough I must attempt it but I would not be a friend to Norma Jeane if I did not first say, and believe it more important enough to say first, that I see and love Norma Jeane. The magic was part of Marilyn Monroe but I love the strength and courage of Norma Jeane. Before I write about the magic of MM, I remember Norma Jeane. Maybe this will help heal her, even though she could not heal herself. Another time, I will write about MM.

Arthur Miller was her longest of her three husband’s. I have also read about the McCarthy/Communism situation you mentioned. It sounded like a terrible time for back stabbing your friend’s, as you said. MM was dating Arthur Miller during this time and they were very much in love with each other.

Such was the corruption and desperation of the McCarthyism, Arthur Miller was told the charges would be dropped against him if his accuser’s could only get a photo with MM. They both turned down this offer and I’m fact, unlike many of his fellow colleagues, including Miller’s best friend Elia Kazan, Miller did not sway to pressure and name drop other Communist’s. The charges were eventually dropped against him.

Shortly afterwards, he announced his engagement to MM to the press. The problem was, he had not yet asked MM probably - she found out via the press herself. It was not a problem though because she went along with it even though she was surprised and they eventually married.

Here is a video of her having just found out she is engaged to be married. MM was in her apartment in New York while Miller was dealing with court in LA when be announced the news.

— Marilyn Monroe RARE Press Conference Footage - Outside Her Apartment - June 1956
— https://youtu.be/LDhl-OLpweA

MM was an anneagram 6. 6’s are hard working, loyal and committed to a cause. This explains why MM stood by Miller during the McCarthyism trial even though it threatened to ruin her own career. This would also explain why she stood by him when he announced their engagement to the press before asking her privately, which was surely a power move on Miller’s part and a huge red flag. Being a 6, she would have respected Miller having the courage to stand up to the McCarthyism trial - it showed loyalty to his friend’s and ethics, who could blame her for not respecting that. However, as many other examples of behaviour point to, any decision Miller made was for his own benefit primarily.

A prime time sample of this is when Miller wrote, ‘After the Fall,’ a play about a blonde woman who is addicted to drink and drinks and eventually commits suicidal. Her husband is at first loyal but then leaves her because he cannot handle it anymore. The play was produced two years after Marilyn’s death. The public went in uproar about writing about the private life of an actress who could no longer defend herself. Miller insisted it was not about MM - no one believed him.

Miller tended to blame MM about a lot of things, but I do not want to paint him as a bad guy, even though he used her. Instead, I think it is fair to say that MM was but a woman and Miller was but a man. Despite his intelligence, like so many intelligent men, he was extremely stupid. He was in love with Marilyn and not Norma Jeane, examples of which can be seen in his own writing’s about her, as well as the observations of other’s. I won’t delve into those just now though. In order to stay on topic, I will use a quote by Richard Burton, which came from a letter he had written to Elizabeth Taylor after she had broken up with him. In the letter, he promises to not betray her trust like Miller did to MM -

‘ You may rest assured that I will not have affairs with any other female. I shall gloom a lot and stare morosely into unimaginable distances and act a bit—probably on the stage—to keep me in booze and butter, but chiefly and above all I shall write. Not about you, I hasten to add. No Millerinski Me, with a double M. There are many other and ludicrous and human comedies to constitute my shroud.’
— https://blackbookmag.com/arts-cultu...odbye-letter-richard-burton-elizabeth-taylor/

I was going to write next about ET and RB but I have already dribbled on too long so will leave that for another time. Thank you for sharing what you knew about MM though. I found all of it true, except for the part where Miller was intelligent, even if he was an intellect. Unfortunately, his sexism/misogynism stopped him from recognising hers, or perhaps by the time he saw that MM’s was a genius, it made him feel a bit inferior, hence why he used her, especially given be thought he had married a bimbo.

 

[Ukpoohbear]

piercethevale, thank you for your thorough and expert Sabian symbol explanation on MM. I will be responding to it shortly, by next week.