Manipulative cheater or lost innocent?

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cassanra

Well-known member
Wow...this one got my attention.
Involved with a guy with uranus conjunct moon....'changes moods so fast he gives me whiplash:)
Saturn opposing venus....involved with a same guy who has saturn square venus....tends to give the 'native with a certain 'coldness' in relationships...a certain meaness "undemonstrative, selfsih' and other things like this. This would explain the complete indiffernece to telling you his attraction to another....sorry...know how it feels though....this is not a good combo.
Your moon to mars contact with each other is not a good thing...moon and mars together "domestic unrest' crockery flying :) . I would suggest if you moved in together crockery would have flown though the sex might be good. But who needs the headache :(
Fated to kill each other :( with north node conjunct sun and moon and mars....not so good.
Your grand air trine with jupiter and sun in the 7th may lend toward idealism or intellectual idealism of relationships....just a thought.
 

cassanra

Well-known member
Oh ...on your question....I would tend definitely away from lost innocence but not quite a manipulative cheater. Pluto square sun=obsessed with self. Venus + Jupiter + neptune...maybe idealistic and charming and high expectations of partners but Saturn opposes so kind of a contradiction....might have problems identifying and coming to terms with these opposing energies of compassion and idealism with the aloof and selfish saturn energy.
 

lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
Stardust,
I noticed your chart was posted also but the nature/wording of your question placed the focus on his chart not yours.
When I look at your chart, I notice that you have sun, moon and ascendant all in fixed signs.You have sun conjunct jupiter in H7 square mars. This is a volatile combination of energies when it comes to relationships. The venus square uranus can indicate intense but shortlived attractions.The fixed signs would make compromise even more challenging for you. I notice the ruler of your seventh is retrograde and square pluto (widely).Saturn is also inconjunct venus in your chart, and conjunct your south node.This is a very difficult aspect and can cause many problems in relationships.You mentioned you have Neptune in H5-but it is also square mercury in pisces...this exacerbates the difficulty of seeing things as they *really are*.
As Cassandra has pointed out, the synastry between the two of you is harsh.

I had read that Chiron in the 7th can create a good marriage counselor but of course, one who cannot adequately deal with their own.

Well, I havent read that.His chiron is in the 7th , trine neptune. I have seen that placement of Chiron in the charts of healers before. I would also interpret that as a wound he receives from others.With his mars in the second, his self esteem would be affected by others. I think the opposition of mars to saturn in this chart uses an orb of about 8 degrees..That's pretty wide and a lot of astrologers wouldn't take it in account, whereas your mars square the sun /jupiter is very close and very personal.
His venus/Saturn opposition is as difficult as the inconjunct you have between the same two planets.Venus in capricorn would exacerbate that aspect also.
He has mercury trine Saturn-an aspect that usually bespeaks a degree of integrity in my experience. You have mercury trine the moon, and square neptune- your mercury is in pisces, his is in capricorn, so both of you have problems communicating. You both have afflictions to your third house ruler.

I agree with much of what Starlink has said.However, I dont use modern rulerships, so from my perspective, his fifth is ruled by saturn and yours by jupiter, with neptune right there.
His Neptune is conjunct a benefic,sextile pluto, trine chiron and sextile the Asc.Nothing there suggesting that he is a deceptive person.In fact I'd say he is very intuitive which may help him with the work he does.
You also have 4 planets retrograde (venus, Saturn, Uranus, Pluto). He has mercury and Saturn retrograde. (Retrograde motion impedes the planet's ability to act-effectively weakening its influence. )
I really don't see enough evidence to suggest that this person is cold, or callous or uncaring. Your capricorn venus might not however be very happy with his scorpio venus and vice versa. He has mutable signs on the angles suggesting an ability to change and be flexible. You have fixed signs on your angles, which is what led me to make the comment that you might not see eye to eye on sexual issues. Apart from that, your moons make no aspect.Neither do your suns.
There is intrinsic incompatibility between these two charts.
Lillyjgc

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gaer

Well-known member
starlink said:
So that is cleared up and Gaer is only trying to help out. Maybe he finds posting data risky and you dont. OK, just tell him that you dont really feel it is that risky and let it be. Lets just concentrate on the astrology.
Starlink, as you know, my data is in my signature. For personal reasons I have decided to make my birth info public.

I was suggesting that none of us should do this with the info of *another* person with his/her permission. That's all. :)

I was also suggesting that people might not realize that by plugging in coordinates in a program like Google Earth, finding a city is as easy as typing in a city to get the coordinates!
 
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stardust7

Active member
gaer said:
Starlink, as you know, my data is in my signature. For personal reasons I have decided to make my birth info public.

I was suggesting that none of us should do this with the info of *another* person with his/her permission. That's all. :)

I was also suggesting that Star (and others might not realize that by plugging in coordinates in a program like Google Earth finding a city is as easy as typing in a city to get the coordinates!

G-- per your suggestion I already fixed his chart and uploaded it again with the coordinates blacked. As mentioned to you previously I will make sure not to do that again.

Star
 

katydid

Staff member
:cool: This is of course true, each chart has it's facets and we need to go far deeper into a chart of course in order to figure this out. However, the question here was about a part of his character, the "cheating" part if you want to call it that way. To me it was straight away clear that this man could not stay easily in a committed relationship. Not his fault, it is probably in his genes. His Venus and Mars both in Scorpio, ruler Pluto in conjunct Ascendant and square his Sun shows very strong sexual needs which could cause him great trouble to overcome (square).-------------------------------------=============================================


I suppose I just have a problem with making absolute statements about someone's level of character development by looking at their natal chart online. You say 'it is clear straight away' that he cannot stay committed in a relationship. I just wonder if we are being fair to make that assessment straight away, after hearing only ONE side of the issue. :eek:
I just have a very sensitive 'reaction' to labeling people instantly because of their birthcharts. People grow and change and progress and elevate themselves and we should try and give them the space to do so.
I agree with almost all of what you gleaned from the man's chart, and it was a very accurate interpretation. I just have a certain weakness in my own reactions, when I think people are perhaps 'unfairly' making judgements about someone without actually knowing at what level their evolution is.
Especially when the only info we are given is from someone who was in a relationship that ended badly.:cool:
 

gaer

Well-known member
stardust7 said:
G-- per your suggestion I already fixed his chart and uploaded it again with the coordinates blacked. As mentioned to you previously I will make sure not to do that again.
I removed your name from the above post, so now it will read as a warning to other people, perhaps.

The reason I have made no comments about your chart or the chart of the other is that I have really had nothing to add.

I don't want to debate what it means to be in a relationship or what "partner" means. However, the only comment I made re "power" has to do with something those of us in this forum have talked about a great deal.

If "power" issues show up in a chart, it's not an easy thing (and perhaps not even possible) to tell whether someone has been the victim of power struggles (abused) or is himself/herself also an "abuser", since so often people who have been badly treated go on to treat others in a similar manner.

It's a "chicken or the egg" thing.

g
 

stardust7

Active member
lillyjgc said:
Stardust,
I noticed your chart was posted also but the nature/wording of your question placed the focus on his chart not yours.
When I look at your chart, I notice that you have sun, moon and ascendant all in fixed signs.You have sun conjunct jupiter in H7 square mars. This is a volatile combination of energies when it comes to relationships. The venus square uranus can indicate intense but shortlived attractions.

Sun square Mars shows conflicts with the men in my life, that is true. Through most of my life I have had a very dominant personality. My marriage has been volatile at times and only recently have things settled down and become more of a calm partnership. Separation for a while helped us both with that.The last few years in particular have created big changes in the way that I relate with others in general, for the better... I do credit Neptune's transit to my Sun and Jupiter with this.

Venus square Uranus--he is the only person with whom I've ever had a short-lived relationship. My fixity actually makes me quite tenacious and stubborn; I'm in it for the long haul. In my experience this aspect has manifested as "strange attractions" or attractions to rebellious or otherwise unconventional people.

lillyjgc said:
His chiron is in the 7th , trine neptune. I have seen that placement of Chiron in the charts of healers before.
He has mercury trine Saturn-an aspect that usually bespeaks a degree of integrity in my experience. You have mercury trine the moon, and square neptune- your mercury is in pisces, his is in capricorn, so both of you have problems communicating. You both have afflictions to your third house ruler.
His Neptune is conjunct a benefic,sextile pluto, trine chiron and sextile the Asc.Nothing there suggesting that he is a deceptive person.In fact I'd say he is very intuitive which may help him with the work he does.

Yes he is very intuitive and it does indeed help with the work that he does. However even he admits to being somewhat deceptive person! He excuses this by saying his intentions are not to hurt anyone. That really bothered me.

lillyjgc said:
I really don't see enough evidence to suggest that this person is cold, or callous or uncaring.... There is intrinsic incompatibility between these two charts.

I agree there are things that do not match up well in terms of relationship *style* in other words, how we each conduct ourselves within a relationship. However I have found that reciprocal True Node conjunct Sun between us (also the Vertex was in there, the "fated point of meeting")
created a companionable identification with each other's life paths. I don't mean careers, but more like, who we are and how we conduct ourselves. He very much admired my intensity and passion and outspokenness because he tends to walk the line despite wanting to scream at times.
Also, communications between us didn't seem to have any problems. We talked and wrote for pages and hours... our communication compatibility was actually attractive to both of us.

While my attitude is better, I still don't think I was the last. Maybe the first, if he was being honest. When doing a Persona chart at astro.com, Venus showed up in his 12th house. (I quite like the persona charts and find them to be amazingly accurate) which indicates secret love affairs... i.e., more than one! I told him once he may not intend the outcome of multiple attractions, but his subconscious behavior seems to bring them about. In that case, he is still responsible for the consequences of his actions whether he "means it" or not. For instance he is very averse to disagreement of any sort, which makes him subversive when it comes to communicating about difficult issues. Maybe this makes him a generally agreeable person--on the surface-- but all kinds of issues are bubbling underneath and creating problems that just aren't seeing the light of day. While his intention is not to have a disagreement, the outcome is deception. Does that make him a bad person comes down to personal opinion. I mean a drunk driver really doesn't set out to have an accident and kill someone; it's a by-product of a bad choice. But we are each still responsible for the consequences of our choices. Including ME!

Yes I am sensitive to being a proverbial "home-wrecker"-- it goes against my personal feelings and to have entered into one without knowing the truth felt very manipulative to me. By then, I had very strong feelings and wanted to give him a chance to think things through. In the end, I did not ruin his marriage nor break it up. If that happens, it's on his head. Although I will add here that I think she willingly turns a blind eye. It's kind of sad, they are not really happy or in love :(

I appreciate your analysis of things, you have a good grip on aspects. I wish I had done this long ago because it has helped me see things more objectively. It is exactly that Neptune in the 5th square Merc in my 8th that makes me second guess my judgment and seek out others opinions. I am really relieved he is not my husband; I might have killed him by now!

Sincerely,
Stardust

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stardust7

Active member
cassanra said:
Wow...this one got my attention.
Involved with a guy with uranus conjunct moon....'changes moods so fast he gives me whiplash:)
Saturn opposing venus....involved with a same guy who has saturn square venus....tends to give the 'native with a certain 'coldness' in relationships...a certain meaness "undemonstrative, selfsih' and other things like this. This would explain the complete indiffernece to telling you his attraction to another....sorry...know how it feels though....this is not a good combo.
Your moon to mars contact with each other is not a good thing...moon and mars together "domestic unrest' crockery flying :) . I would suggest if you moved in together crockery would have flown though the sex might be good. But who needs the headache :(
Fated to kill each other :( with north node conjunct sun and moon and mars....not so good.
Your grand air trine with jupiter and sun in the 7th may lend toward idealism or intellectual idealism of relationships....just a thought.

LMAO... yes crockery would certainly have flown, it's already flown in my marriage a few times! (actually, a few glasses and one ashtray). Not so much anymore, I have calmed down quite a bit in my old age :p

Good to know someone who has been involved with a person with that Saturn aspect... I'd never heard the coldness issue but it's kind of true. It's funny how much astrology can tell about a person because he had told me that outside of sex he is not a very affectionately demonstrative person. I guess because he wasn't a jealous person (though he certainly seemed jealous of my estranged husband at the time) he didn't think much of telling me about it. However I think that was an oversight on his part because he knew how incredibly jealous I can be. My best friends said "Doesn't he KNOW you?!" LOL Even when Husband and I looked at having a somewhat open relationship after so many years, his best friend looked at him and said "I'm really surprised Star would agree to that considering how jealous she is." There ya go!

I never got to actually meet him, strangely enough. He invited me to a conference he was going to attend last August. I refused when I saw he wasn't leaving his wife. So I will never really know. I knew pretty early on though that we would never really be able to "set up house" together b/c we lived so far apart and both have children... I was willing to accept that distance, I kind of appreciated living by myself while I was separated! But, I would not have been able to abide that plus all the female friends and his strong need for sexual independence. He was alternately attracted and averse to my possessiveness; on the one hand it showed my strong interest and care. On the other, it limited his freedom. That difference alone was a relationship killer... you really gotta have somebody who likes to be "possessed" when it comes to a Scorp Moon:rolleyes:

Star
 

lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
I never got to actually meet him, strangely enough.

Well from your first post you certainly gave the impression you were involved in a real relationship.

What is interesting for me in all this is that recently on the Forum we were discussing gender preferences and aspects that could relate. Venus square Uranus was someone's theory-You have that aspect. Mars conjunct venus was another, He has that.
You mentioned he has *transgender* issues..I really don't know what you mean by this-
Pluto has often been implicated in jealousy matters-he has it on the Asc.But you say you are the jealous one. Jealousy is the product of insecurity, nothing to do with a scorpio moon.
With Libra rising and two planets in Libra, the man would strive to be tactful. Some regard tact as dishonesty.
A uranus /moon conjunction in Libra may not behave in such an erratic way as if say that cj was in aries or sag.There would be an innate sense of the need for balance.And I very much stick with my interpretation of the sun/pluto square (involving the Ascx) adversely affecting his health.,You haven't lived with or even met the man,so you really don't have the whole story.Any aspect involving the Asc will affect health-thats just basic astrology.
His chart depicts a much more passive person than yours.That sun/jupiter cj square mars could be very volatile.Especially because of where it is.

If he is married and has children (a fact that might have been worth mentioning in your original post),we can't really assume he is incapable of having a relationship of some duration because he has moon/cj uranus in H1, can we? At best we can say this will be a
real struggle for him but the fact that he is NOT leaving his wife at this point anyway, is perhaps a testimony to his willingness to persevere.
Lillyjgc

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katydid

Staff member
stardust7 said:
Hi all.. I have a chart that I would like to get some different opinions on. This was a man I was involved with for a period of time last year. Our connection was remarkable; it felt fated and amazing, like we really belonged together. We have several connections between our charts; my Moon conjunct his Mars & Venus in Scorpio; his True Node conjunct my Sun; my Sun conjunct his True Node were the most notable. Things could not work out however, for several reasons. We tried to stay friends but after a while I got the feeling that he was moving on to have an affair with someone else. He literally told me about being attracted to this woman! I felt very used after that and we were not able to maintain contact. I had the suspicion that he had done this before and maybe was moving on to do it again... however he swore to me that I was the only one ever, that he was working on things with his spouse again, etc. Despite my own Scorpio Moon, I have Neptune in the 5th and so I have a hard time distinguishing between reality or not when in "love." :confused:

Things that bother me are Pluto on the Ascendant square his Sun (can be manipulative); Venus opposite Saturn + Juno (marriage), which says to me marriage is depressing and in conflict with his sexual/love/passionate urges; Chiron in the 7th house (unhealed wound in deep partnerships); the entire Scorpio stellium including Jupiter (big time!) and Neptune (deception) in the 3rd house of Communications (we met online). Uranus conjunct Moon in the first tells me his emotional attention span is short and his feelings can be fickle.

Of course it is hard for me to be entirely objective, however.

What I want to know is the vibe other people get from this chart. Is this man a tortured soul or a serial user? Or both? I have never had anyone else look at his charts and am very curious for other's evaluations. Please help me get some perspective and put this behind me. Thanks so much for any help. I have attached both charts.

**** EDITED attachment 4/28 to remove latitude and longitude of other's chart.

"This was a man I was involved with for a period of time last year. Our connection was remarkable; it felt fated and amazing, like we really belonged together."

Your description of the relationship went from the above, to the statement below;

"I never got to actually meet him, strangely enough."

The NEPTUNE/5TH SQUARE MERCURY/8TH at work perhaps=
It seems like you are not describing clearly the reality of the relationship.
The introductory sentence clearly implied that you had an 'affair' of some sort-and you went on in later posts to say you felt' used,' and disappointed that he chose to stay with his wife. When in reality, you never even met.:eek:

To me, that shows that your ability to assess the situation realistically is lacking. Your Neptune/Mercury allows you to accept as gospel truth whatever your sweethearts tell you.

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starlink

Well-known member
I just have a certain weakness in my own reactions, when I think people are perhaps 'unfairly' making judgements about someone without actually knowing at what level their evolution is.
Especially when the only info we are given is from someone who was in a relationship that ended badly.:cool:

Yes Katydid, you are very right in saying this. I should have said that there is a great likelyhood of him not being able to commit and probably being very involved in sexual matters. Everybody has good qualities and not all that we think we can see from a chart might be true or at least in the degree we think it is.
I dont really "listen" to other people's opinions about someone. I know from experience that you can go very wrong doing this, so I always want to check things out for myself. Also in real life, I want to find prove for things myself and dont easily believe what others tell me:) so I dont think I was influenced by what Stardust told us. I concentrate only on the question (is he or is he not) and go from there. But many people DO get biased, I know.
Thanks for bringing this up Kathy.

Starlink
 

cassanra

Well-known member
I have seen this happen again and again over the years. Individuals who are struggliing in a marriage and feel 'unattractive' begin to dabble on the internet trying to gain something of this 'relationship', trying to feel their attractiveness, in this non-touching, nonthreatening way. My sister rekindled a relationship with a childhood sweetheart in the last year. They NEVER got together. He called her sometimes 6 times a day, emailed her. She, recently separated and quite vunerable, was quite confused by his actions. But he would not met her..that was too dangerous for him. He was in a long term marriage, home, children etc. But it is the psychological escape. He is older, heavier, poorer health, maybe struggling with his self-image and age and the spark of old love..it was fun to feel that again but not cross the line thus getting the thrill with out the danger. But my sister was devastated as it felt real for her as she needed some hope in her life right now after her husband left her for someone else and she found out he had cheated on her before.
So ...I see the psychology of it and see both sides of the astrological aspects.
 

cassanra

Well-known member
In a way though, it is deceiving themselves that it will not hurt another. The deception lies in deceiving themselves.
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
Hi all,

I've been watching this thread for some time now, and, before this childish to and fro starts off yet again, I just want to ask you guys to strictly stick to Astrology and leave out all other remarks. If you have nothing astrological or helpful to say, then refrain from saying anything at all, at least here!! This forum offers a galore of threads to move onto.

One more thing, if you are copying in/quoting long texts/posts, please do so *below your own answer*. It is tedious for other readers to first read through a long post, and then having to scroll right through the same text as part of a quote this time, in order to get to the newly posted content matter.

AQ7
 

Xibalba

Well-known member
stardust7 said:
Wow, great interp... I had not thought about the rulerships, thank you. Do you know what is ironic? He is a psychologist and counselor!!!

He told me he was jealous of a client who had three open relationships, that she got to have sex with each of them, they all knew about the others, and nobody was jealous. We had been just friends for a while, and he told me that about the same time he admitted being attracted to this weird dominatrix chic. I couldn't believe he actually told me that. :eek:

Sounds like a true blue Aquarian. lol
 

lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
Re your above post:The question you asked originally is *about* this man's integrity so forgive us all if we are engaging in a chart-based discussion about his integrity...
His mercury/saturn trine connects by sextile to his mars which is in scorpio, the sign of its dignity.Your Mars is in the sign of its fall, and square sun/jupiter, so I'm not sure it's as *black and white* a matter as you would have us believe.
You both have difficult aspects.And they are not harmonious.
When the ascendant ruler is in h7 there may also be a tendency to *project* onto the other person.
The relationships we choose to have can provide us with experiences from which we learn.On the other hand we can just apportion blame to the other when it doesnt work out the way our ego wants it to.
There is more value to be had perhaps, in examining what it is in ourselves that attracts into our life, experiences that leave us feeling embittered.
Your chart ,Stardust, is the key to understanding your life.His chart is the key to understanding *his* life.What lessons can *you* learn from this experience Stardust?
The confusion that I think has now arisen, stems from the fact that on the one hand you describe him as dishonest, yet on the other, you quote him as gospel when he speaks of his wife.This is inconsistent.

You are right it's only what he's telling me but on the one hand I've got you people arguing about his integrity and then you tell me he may be lying and my perception is off!

Actually it is you telling us he is lying.But I'm not convinced.Not on the basis of the charts anyway.Your close mercury/neptune square at least should be taken into account here.Surely?
Goodbye.
Lillyjgc

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