Kabbalistic Astrology & Jupiter~Saturn Conjunctions

Phoenix Venus

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I see what I did now...I wrote that I was posting the Jupiter Merc. conj. but instead was posting the Saturn Merc. conj.
and I should have left the Jupiter Sun and Jupiter Moon conjunctions out of this until the end of the task at hand or for another thread...my bad.

Well im glad you posted it accidentaly as it gave me a chance to look at it and see that there were plenty points of significance in regards to the usa chart... a little nod that your idea to check those saturn charts out as well.. will proove to be fruitful. (I agree that its best to focus now on the jup charts and come to any conclusions regarding saturn... after we have looked more into jup... one step at a time... ) id eventually like to look at the 2020 charts, as well...

Of course i think you are excellent with the sabians and you have a way of presenting them with a certain wonder and awe... so i'll be interested in seeing what you have to say on these charts, too, if your health and time permits...

so whats the verdict on your hand, if you dont mind me asking...? Hopefully everything is okay.


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Well im glad you posted it accidentaly as it gave me a chance to look at it and see that there were plenty points of significance in regards to the usa chart... a little nod that your idea to check those saturn charts out as well.. will proove to be fruitful. (I agree that its best to focus now on the jup charts and come to any conclusions regarding saturn... after we have looked more into jup... one step at a time... ) id eventually like to look at the 2020 charts, as well...

Of course i think you are excellent with the sabians and you have a way of presenting them with a certain wonder and awe... so i'll be interested in seeing what you have to say on these charts, too, if your health and time permits...

so whats the verdict on your hand, if you dont mind me asking...? Hopefully everything is okay.

It's a pinched nerve and I'm going for a chiropractor consultation tomorrow and likely an adjustment...see if that doesn't bring some improvement or even just cure it.. My right shoulder has been all bound up for weeks.

I wanted to note that Mercury is smack dab on the mid-point between my Saturn-Neptune conjunction ...bringing the vision to concreteness and communicating it:biggrin:

Phoenix Venus

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The chart axes similarity between the Mercury and the Mars events...:andy::w00t::biggrin::cool:

Which only goes to show us with further emphasis how important exact time of event and location is to all charts.


And something i just noticed...

in the Sat-jupiter chart, mars is in the 18th of gemini.

in the Jup-mars chart, north node is in 18th of gemini.

major! And only about a degree away from Yeshuas natal mars...

man. too bad i dont know how to add color on my phone. That would be in purple, for sure. :smile:

Phoenix Venus

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I'll post that chart for the Jupiter Merc as a full image will be easier for the other members to see...and I just got the chart for the Mars conj. You'll get a kick out of it. It happened on July 3rd, 2002 and the Asc. is the 26th of Leo.
In fact I'll just post all three on the same post...coming up.
..and then I'm going to have to quit for the day, my arm and hand are giving out

and the jup-venus has vertex at 26 leo!!!

Ahh man im getting all astro-excited... i think i have to step away for a while.. ha ha....

Phoenix Venus

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Okay lets take a look at the symbols for the jupiter-mercury conjunction.

The AC @ 20 gemini:


KEYNOTE: The assimilation of multifarious knowledge through the synthesizing power of the mind.

From the One, the Many arise in due time. The Original Source gives birth to the mountain stream which, gathering to itself the down-flow of rain water, becomes the large river around which cities are built. These in turn pollute the river on its way to the vast ocean. This modern symbol expresses the fact that man, now at the close of a cultural cycle, is able to gather foodstuffs - mental as well as physical - from many regions of the globe. His diet has acquired a planet-wide foundation; history tells us that the search for salt and spices, then for commodities rare in local regions, provided the impetus for global trade and thus eventually for a planetary consciousness. The results may be satiety and indigestion, and mental confusion caused by lack of discrimination.

This is the last symbol of the sixteenth five-fold sequence. As is most often the case such a fifth stage implies a certain kind of synthesis or at least a preparation which leads to a new level. The keynote here is indeed ASSIMILATION; the negative potentiality of the symbol is WASTE."

...this symbol fits uncannily well with the symbols from the first chart... i'm actually a bit blown away by how much this symbol relates to all that we saw from the preceding set of symbols... for instance there is the mention of the close of a cultural cycle... the symbol of the sat-jup conjunction mentioned the need for refinement at the end of a natural process... well many have said that this time around 2012 is the end of one age and the beginning of another... hmm. the symbol also mentions the many arising out of the One original source which relates back to the DC of the sat-jup chart.

There is also reference here to the WHY (the ic) of the last chart... and the need to let go of the superfulous.. the unnecessary waste.. so here the WHO is a culture of assimilation... a sea of many minds with their multitude of varying ideals and desires...

the DC @ 20 sag:


KEYNOTE: The foresighted use of natural resources to supply future needs.

At the close of this series of symbols we again see a reference to the relationship between man and nature. Man’s ingenuity and foresight make it possible for him to plan for the future in terns of his knowledge of the seasonal rhythm of cold and heat and, by implication, of even larger cycles of change. Quiet and relaxation may have to be sacrificed, and some hardships endured, in order that another type of problem, which may involve survival though proper feeding, may be met at some later time.

This is the fifth and last phase in the fifty second section of the cycle. It stresses the value of actively planning for future need, and of foresight based on the knowledge of cyclic processes. Keywords: ASSURING SUPPLY."

So the whom-to is about a utilization of the mind towards what is necessary... here we have focus rather than the disorientation that was seen in the preceding sign...

seems that as mercury inherited jupiters message of Gods divine will, it is about pushing the mind of humanity towards applying foresight and ingenuity.

.... im pretty beat, long day... will get to the rest of these symbols tomorrow..
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Well, as I'm the one with the book by the Rabbi, I did want to bring up that it seems to me , from what I got out of the Rabbi's words that the conjunction of the Planets themselves seem to be the emphasis here and we may have gotten a little ahead of ourselves. {I know you likely felt a bit obligated to get something posted on these subsequent planetary conjunctions P.V. and the chart axes being so in tenor with one another did get me caught up into the chart axes symbologies, but they are only pertinent to the United States. You also put in a full 8 hours at work today and I can imagine how tired you might be.]

Also, I find the Jupiter-Mercury conjunction in the 17th of Gemini, particularly, drawing my attention because that is my 8th House cusp and it symbolizes my approach to all affairs of the 8th House and it is also the natal Mercury of a fellow mentioned in my book by the name of Mitch and it was Mitch at the time that helped me understand matters pertaining to the "Dark Side" as I had been under, what my clairvoyant friend, Clarisse, termed as a "psychic assault". During that time I learned a lot about rites and rituals ...as it takes one of those to put a person under that kind of assault. And let's not forget that Gemini is ruled by Mercury. {Not to mention my own theory that it is Jupiter that is the ruler of Aquarius and Capricorn...as the M.C. of this chart is in Aquarius...}

So why is this particular degree's Sabian Symbol so helpful concerning matters as to religion and philosophies {Jupiterian} and the mind, comprehension and communication? {Mercurial} And why is it so particularly effective in allowing me to understand what had been done to me and particularly enabling me to combat and counter that assault?

Check it out. From Dane Rudhyar's wonderful book on the Sabian Symbols, "An Astrological Mandala" [currently out of print] the 17th degree of Gemini is:


KEYNOTE: The transformation of physical vitality into the power to build concepts and intellectual formulations through which knowledge can be transferred.

While in the preceding symbol we see the explosive release of impulses generated by a new realization of what is right and wrong - the 'woman' way controlled by feelings - now we have a picture of a process of quiet and steady metamorphosis of biological energy into mind-power, which can be seen symbolically as the 'man' way. The symbolism may seem old-fashioned today, but the two contrasting approaches to communication of new experiences remain evident, however one wishes to symbolize them.

This second stage of the sixteenth sequence, as is nearly always the case, presents a contrast with the first stage. What we see pictured is the transformation of emotions into mind, of instincts into thoughts - a process of

I would say that the Cosmos is telling us to put aside our diversions, "our toys", and to get busy with the solving problem at hand...
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Phoenix Venus

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Piercethevale said:

"I would say that the Cosmos is telling us to put aside our diversions, "our toys", and to get busy with the solving problem at hand..."

...Yeah, im seeing that too!

Mental metamorphosis... what a perfect symbol for the placement of the jupiter-mercury conjunction!

lets look at the mc-ic axis for the chart:


KEYNOTE: Linking above and below, the Covenant with one's divine nature, promise of immortality.

In the Bible the rainbow is the sign of the Covenant established by God with Noah (the cyclic "Seed man") guaranteeing that no longer shall the destructive power of Spirit (the Shiva aspect of the Divine) be used to destroy life on earth. As we come to the third level of the scene of "Release," we find the man who has been able to weather the cathartic storm face-to-face with his divine Archetype; because he has been victorious, a link has been established with his divine Soul-being. Both the human and the divine partners should remain thus linked. H. P. Blavatsky's last words are said to have been: "Keep the Link unbroken" —the Link she forged With the Trans-Himalayan Brotherhood that had sent her into the darkness of nineteenth-century materialism for this purpose.

At the first stage of this thirtieth sequence, the symbol of the rainbow shows us the need to maintain a state of open communication between the Sky and the Earth within our total being —not for the sake of finding an ever-elusive "pot of gold" at the end of the rainbow, for this end is never to be reached, but in order to face the totality of our individual selfhood as it is projected in the many-hued dome of our sky-flung consciousness. After every successfully met crisis, the REVELATION OF WORTH comes to us, and with it comes the promise of success, if only we do our part."

Linking above and below for the WHY of this chart. makes sense. fits in with the DC, which mentions the use of foresight....

Revelation of worth... perhaps this is tied in with the mental metamorphosis that is required... remember back to the original jup-saturn chart that took place at 23 taurus... the symbol mentioning the keywords "certification of personal worth"... so this is all about how we might personally attune ourselves to our higher purpose and value... to a purpose aligned with God's will.

Lets look at the MC, the how, at 26 aqua:


KEYNOTE: Skill in applying knowledge of natural laws to the solution of everyday problems resulting from life in our technological society.

Here we see a man using his analytical mind to check up on the operation of the machines his inventive genius produced. This simple commonplace operation is used here as an indication of how deeply technology involves us in small matters, yet matters which in some circumstances could make the difference between life and death —i.e. a mechanical failure in a car on a crowded freeway. The need for "management" therefore is seen to affect every detail of our individual lives; this applies as well to the complexities of interpersonal, social or political relationships, because our modern society is indeed like a huge machine speeding on dangerous ground. Safety depends on available power.

This is the first of five degree symbols in the sixty-sixth sequence. It tells us that we constantly need the use of our intellectual power of observation and analysis to check on the effectiveness of the energies at our disposal. It is a symbol of MENTAL EFFICIENCY."

... and again, how fitting! "Applying the knowledge of natural laws to the solution of everday problems"

mental efficiency... is how we can utilize our minds and make room for a metamorphosis more aligned towards Gods plan during this current span of time...
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Phoenix Venus

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So before i get to the symbolism regarding the jupiter-venus chart... an interesting observation. the part of destiny (prpbably my personal fav part to look up for any given chart...) for the jupiter- mercury is conjunct the Ic of the jupiter-venus chart...

Just goes to show how intricately in sync "the stars" can be...

I planned on getting some more up regarding these charts but... my minds a bit foggy, gotta get some rest first..

Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
So now... how might the jupiter-venus chart fit into the picture... As the Universal Will projected through our sense of relating and expression of love?

The jupiter-venus conjunction takes place at 6 cancer:


KEYNOTE: An instinctual dedication of self to new forms of life.

The original symbol (which was subsequently altered) spoke here of "game birds"; thus we deal with spiritual forces (birds) placed within a social context. As in the symbol for Cancer 1° we see here the beginning of a process; action is definitely oriented toward the future. A new wave of life is starting and a concrete - and no longer symbolical - preparation is made for it. At a social level - we can speak of the pioneering efforts dedicated to the building of a new culture, new institutions.

This is the first stage of the twentieth five-fold sequence. It reveals a preparation for rebirth, and a significant note is sounded by the mention of game birds. What is being built is instinctively - but not yet consciously - offered to a higher level of consciousness. The young-to-be are potential sacrifices to feed human beings. Just as tribal men sacrificed virgins to satisfy the gods. Already the meaning of the second half of the cycle (the first degree of Libra, for instance) is implied, just as the entire social process is implied in the formalism of the marriage ceremony. An appropriate key would be SYMBIOSIS,i.e. a deep unconscious cooperation between different levels of existence, the "animal" level producing lives for the sake of the "human.""

This symbol focuses on rebirth and new forms of life at a societal level... So perhaps it is Divine will to commit ourselves to new forms of symbiotic cooperation... new forms of interaction... Forms in which we maintain dedication towards service and giving of ourselves.... "what is being built is... offered to a higher level of consciousness."

Lets take a look at the ac-dc axis, as it was during the conjunction in philadelphia, the birth place of the usa...

Ac at 21 Cap:


KEYNOTE: The value of competition in developing group-consciousness.

Here we are no longer dealing with competition between individuals, but with competition between groups of individuals who take turns successively in order to maximize the group effort and the possibility of outstanding results. The whole of civilization is a vast kind of relay race in which groups of people and generations carry the torch of what we call "progress." Major achievements result from the sum total of human strivings.

This first symbol of the fifty-ninth sequence stresses one especially dynamic aspect of "group performance." Wherever this symbol appears, it emphasizes the value of group cooperation and of necessary give-and-take. One must seek to relate and adjust one's strength to the challenge presented by competitors in DYNAMIC INTERCHANGE."

Here we see quite clearly an image of our current collective.

And the DC at 21 cancer:


KEYNOTE: The emotional reward accompanying cultural excellence

If anything represents the type of response that a well-developed society gives to the individual who successfully pours their energy into the skill externalization of the great images of its culture, it is the opera. The operatic prima donna is not merely a lonely performer, like the piano virtuoso ( 13°); he or she is the star in a collective effort. The opera is not only music but a story, a mythos,which embodies some of the most basic images and emotions characterizing the culture that gave it birth. Euro-American culture is indeed extolled —or condemned —by its operas and their lurid an tragic passions. It is interesting to compare the opera with the equivalent of social performances and their topics in India, Java or Tibet.

At this first stage of the twenty-third five-fold sequence of cyclic phases find the drive toward individualization by means of concrete forms of cultural activity glorified in social and financial success. In its deepest sense the symbol refers to THE PRICE OF SUCCESS —for the individual, as well of the collectivity acclaiming him or her. What is success really worth? A question few people ask."

This axis represents the dynamic between the driving urge of the individual in society (competition) and the result of an acclaimed role within that society. the price of success... it relates back to the symbol found for the conjunction where we see a need for new societal foundations....

this mix of symbols brings to mind the famous quote by JFK "Ask not what my country can do for me, but what I can do for my country?"

Phoenix Venus

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Hehe.... it never ceases to amaze me... the mc-ic axis ties in so perfectly with the other symbols seen in this chart. the more i work with Rudhyar's adaption of the sabians, the more impressed i am with their cohesion... and with the cosmos way of interlacing them into an intricate weaving of a master story of life....

The IC, the why, at 15 taurus:


KEYNOTE: The courage needed to meet the crises precipitated by ambition.

The man with the silk hat has seen some of his ambitious efforts of social success; but he learns that often "nothing fails like success." The storm may be within him, or it may attack his social status. He is ready to face it daringly. This shows a willingness to accept crises and to go through them - and therefore great character, the soil upon which a higher kind consciousness may develop.

This is the fifth and final stage of this ninth five-fold sequence of symbols. It implies a transition to a new level at which the individual who has learned from experience demonstrates a truly mature mind. What is revealed here is CHARACTER under adverse circumstances."

So we see quite a few things at play here, quite a few answers to indications laid out in the previous posts... we remember from the jup-venus conjunction symbol an implication towards a new society built on symbiosis... a need to provide for higher consciousness.... and in this symbol we see a higher level of consciousness brought about through character... character which is brought about when faced with the price of success... (a concept shown in the DC symbolism) .... The product of ambition (competition, the ac) sets in motion the need to face the implications of ones actions as it effects other members of society...

So here we see that their is a pull to build character through facing our imdividual and collective success... thereby bringing about a more evolved way of expressing ourselves in our society....

so how can this evolution, through building a new society on which character is developed, be attained?

The MC, the how, at 15 scorpio:


KEYNOTE: Early steps in the development of a mind seeking to be attuned to the higher level of human evolution.

This is a particularly cryptic symbol. It may be deciphered if one realizes that Man's essential destiny is to develop as a five-fold being, a "Pentagram" or five-pointed star. Number 5 symbolizes mind in its most creative and penetrating aspect, while number 4 refers to the life processes operating at present within the earth's biosphere. Our Western civilization has realized only the lower level of this vibration 5; i.e. mind contaminated by compulsive instincts and emotional involvement. Some individuals, however, are born with a special potential for development of the higher, creative mind, and in social circumstances favoring this development. In most cases, they are still "playing around" with their unusual capacity. They are in the kindergarten stage of this higher mind development.

In this final stage of the forty-fifth sequence of five symbols the transcendent possibilities of mental evolution, which require interpersonal communion in consciousness, are evoked. The free spirit of true scientific inquiry is only a foreshadowing of such a type of mind, which demands dedication to mankind as a whole. What is seen here is FUTURE-ORIENTED GROWTH."

Ahh.. just marvelous... splendid... perfectly magnificent symbol here to represent the how... we might socially evolve through exploring the higher chambers of the creative mind... this is that "higher consciousness" that was hinted at in that first symbol we saw... that higher consciousness that we are to decitate ourselves to...

and the how being about mental development... with a to-the-degree conjunction between the sun and mercury... And wow... with the sun-merc conjunction 48 degrees from the venus-jupiter conjunction... which is in the quintile section of aspects... quintile being about genuis proclivities and inspiration.... MAJOR!!!

Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
And finally.. because these symbols are really blowing me away... lets look at the part of fortune for the venus-jupiter conjunction chart...

part of fortune @ 10 leo:


KEYNOTE: The need to involve one's most spiritual and vital energies in the creative act' if it is to produce significant and beautiful new forms.

The breath represents the power of the spirit, animator of all living manifestations. Because the glass blower uses his breath to shape the vessels, he is a fitting symbol of how deeply any creative individual has to involve his total being in his creation. He is also using the fire of the spirit - transpersonal inspiration —or, in another sense, the fire of deeply felt emotions. Any creative activity which does not involve both the "breath" and the "fire" cannot transform into beautiful artworks —or indeed into a form of order —the raw materials, remains of the past (the "sand").

This fourth stage of the twenty-sixth sequence symbolically shows us the technique required in true and successful transforming activity. It alwa implies CREATIVE INTENSITY."

So Gods will as projected through Venus..the planet of our relations, which expressed most highly, evoke the principle of love for all..

shows us that during this time, a new level of society is to be achieved by dedicating ourselves towards higher levels of consciousness, arisen out of character, and developed through the applications of the mind.... which can be most fortunately attained through complete commitment to our creative spark..... awesome :)

And... note the vertex at 26 leo which, as piercethevale mentioned, is conjunct Yeshuas natal part of love... :)


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Howdy. Just a note to all that I refreshed the image of the chart in the first post and will get to the images in the posts that follows as soon as possibly time allows.

There is a revived interest in this topic and as we will be having another Jupiter Saturn conjunction in 2020 I too am interested in reviving this topic. I will however need to "bone up" on the subject and review what has already been posted so please be patient and try not to ask any questions of me until I am prepared. However all are given my encouragement to post any observations, knowledge pertaining to the subject, etc. that they may find useful or informative...

...and as the forum is governed by it's own rules and the discretion of its moderators you all can post anything you all please but I do ask for the sake of perpetuating true knowledge that you all please try to keep it on topic?

Thanks, ptv


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Please note that due to more recent inquiries and such and along with the help of my long time friend and renowned clairvoyant, Clarisse Conner, from whom I did get what I believe to have been complete assurance that this recent theory of mine concerning adjusting natal charts according to the procession of the Sidereal Zodiac in relation to the Tropical as per regarding any transit for any given date that I'm currently considering that transits to the natal chart as of July 4, 2000 would be conjunct to any natal figure at an additional 03* 07' 14.76" thus on May 28, 2000 that would adjust to apprx. + 03* 07' 09.20" . You should then add that amount to any natal position whether it be planetary, House cusp, Astrological Part et. al. to find the true conjunction point to the natal influence on that date.

Again, this is presently only hypothetical as I haven't yet used Clarisse's gift to fully determine this but she did mention through a mutual friend to inform me that my work concerning natal charts at the time, particularly the natal chart of the USA and my tinkering with the idea it should be adjusted, was heading in the right direction in that she said "Tell David that He's correct as to his current work involving that natal chart he's now working on, that it does need to be corrected about three degrees." (Yes, she's that good, that gifted, as she had no way of knowing what I was working on at the time, or what I was tinkering with, other than through the use of her gift of clairvoyance) ...That's all I have to go on at this time. It does make sense though in that the influences that emanate from the distant constellations do move in relation to the Tropical Zodiac and while the distance they move in a lifetime (one degree every apprx.71.5 years by current estimate/theory) may be of a relatively insignificant amount to most people and especially so to those whom are young in years, to a natal chart of a nation that is now almost 242 years old it makes a significant difference especially as to one, like myself, who currently believe Astrological Parts are only activated by a direct conjunction within a one degree orb of influence.

For those of us nearing 71.5 years of age or past that mark it also makes somewhat a significant difference concerning transiting influences but most especially to when conjunctions to Astrological Parts actually occur.

Although a number of Traditional astrologers have rebuked me for my use of such Parts in such a manner regarding national charts and for placing as much importance on them as I do, to begin with, my observations to date and research concerning significant historical dates of the United States have shown to be definitely in support of this practice of mine. This is most particularly obvious and profoundly significant for the period from 1848 through 1866 ...and most especially so during the Civil War as to give cause for me to make use of the colloquial expression "Off The Hook" as to how so.

As for the Sabian Symbols, they are always relevant to the Tropical degree of the Zodiac. So any current influence found to be in the same Tropical degree as any object found in the natal chart of the USA is then in synonymous concurrence with the natal object as to the divine precept symbolized by the Sabian found for that Tropical Zodiac degree even though it probably isn't actually exactly conjunct. (That is if my current hypothesis is correct as to adjusting to the sidereal procession at the rate of one degree every 71.5 years. Although the current difference as to the USA's natal chart positions, as of this coming April 4, 2018, will be at, or very close to, 03* 23' 07" that is still within an orb of aspect for a conjunction to any Planet or Luminary)

The process of transformation that the 360 Sabian Symbols represents is a dynamic ongoing process and not a stagnant one. The Cosmos is subjecting us all to that process simply with the passing of time.
It's the nature of the Tao, as Lao Tze is quoted as allegedly having said... the very nature of the universe is change.

So, I'm going to be consulting both the original natal figures and adjusted for all matters concerning transits to the natal chart of the USA for now and into the future... at least until such time something definite can be determined as to which technique is proper.
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Since the time I first initiated this thread and the present I have come to a realization that a true conjunction doesn't just occur, in the matter of two direct motion planets, the moment the faster of the two catches up to the slower moving and enters the exact same secondth of a degree. Rather it has to be determined at what point in time, or as near to that point in time as is possible, the two bodies in question were truly centered. For the Jupiter Saturn conjunction of May 28, 2000 I have found that my original chart was off by 2 minutes and 31 seconds.
It does change a few rather significant degrees to that of the next.
AS Saturn moved out of 23* Taurus 43' 16" and into the next secondth of that degree ahead of Jupiter, then Jupiter couldn't have been truly conjunct with Saturn until later.

Jupiter entered 23* Taurus 43' 17" at 12:03:10 p.m. and was in last aspect at 12:04:52 ...a total of 1 minute and 42 seconds
Saturn entered the same coordinates at 12:02:33 p.m. and was in last aspect at 12:05:43 a total of 3 minutes and 10 seconds.
Thus Jupiter was midpoint in that coordinate at just past 12:04:01 p.m. and
Saturn was midpoint in that coordinate at just past 12:04:08

Here's the corrected chart to as near as I can estimate they were perfectly aligned which I figure to have been about 12:03:58 p.m. I know this is really "splitting hairs" so to speak but when dealing with exact placement for the sake of determining exactly which Sabian Symbol was in effect at the exact time of any significant astrological event it is THAT important to be as accurate as possible.

I may be off by a second or two at most from what might have been exactly so...but an additional 2 seconds more or two seconds less changed nothing of significance as to either chart as I did check that out. I am capable of determining exactness but at a cost of much time spent... and who's to say if astrodienst isn't off by a second or two either way, themselves? This following chart is accurate enough for all astrological considerations imho



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Here is the chart for the first Jupiter Sun conjunction that followed.
It occurred well over a year later on June 14, 2001
This chart has also been calculated as close as need be possible as to the exact moment of centered conjunction.



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I find it of much interest that the USA's natal Part of Noble and Illustrious Acquaintances (those that would deem the USA as such) when adjusted for the Sidereal procession comes to just about exactly where Pluto was positioned on the day of the Jupiter Saturn conjunction of May 28, 2000.

Wouldn't that mean the "death", or dissolution, of such a conclusive evaluation of the nation by others?

Seemed rather prophetic as to concerning what all the USA would be getting involved in between then and the next such conjunction in 2020 ...at least so far... didn't it?

But we're to be investigating the conjunctions of Jupiter to the inner planets here and the Sun isn't thus mentioned by the Rabbi ...I just thought I had best include it anyways as it has significance in its own right.
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Here's the chart for the, estimated, exact moment of true, centered, conj. of Jupiter and Mars that took over a year to realize.
The Rabbi, though a great scholar and authority on Kabbalistic Astrology as there is to be found in the Torah, he was a bit short of astronomical knowledge and was a ways off base when He wrote that all the "inner planets" would conj. with Jupiter within a years' time following a Jupiter Saturn conj.

I'll post any comments of my own, as to the chart, later sometime.



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Here's the chart for the JupiterVenus conjunction which occured a month before the Jupiter Mars conj. in the post above.
I guess I should have posted this one first. I was under the impression it came after... my bad.

Of much interest here is the Saturn North Node conj. that was also happening.

Also the M.C. is just shy of being in a one deg. orb of conj. to the USA natal Part of War, Tropical .... which is at 14* Virgo 48' 51" ...another 38 seconds later and it was.:andy:

...and with PLUTO IN OPPOSITION...! :andy::andy::andy:

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...and what came before the Jupiter Venus conjunction was the Jupiter Mercury conjunction of May 16, 2001 ... and should have been given first...again, my bad.
...and it did occur before a years time had gone by, although the Jupiter Venus and Jupiter Mars conjs. did come along in very close time.

Estimated to be at or as near to an exactly centered conjunction as I am capable of.

It came to my attention these last few hours, that there may be more than one way of interpreting a conjunction. For example take that of Jupiter and Venus ...as posted the centered conjunction chart above, Venus exited the same degree well ahead of Jupiter... by about a minute and twenty seconds ...but when Jupiter existed the same degree the M.C. of the event chart for Philadelphia, the natal birth place of the U.S.A. (is that correct in form, r.e. "the natal birth place"? or should one just write, "The place of nativity"?) just three seconds later the M.C. was in the same degree of the Tropical Zodiac that the U.S.A.'s natal Part of War (Asc. + Mars - Pluto) is located at, i.e. 14* Virgo 48' 51". At the very last moment Jupiter was in that same degree , minute and secondth of a degree that it was conjunct with Venus in, the M.C. was at 13* Virgo 59' 35" and at the next it was at 13* Virgo 59' 51". Thus the M.C. was well enough inside a one degree orb of conjunction to the USA's natal Part of War , Tropical Zodiac, at exit>

This leads to a hypothesis as to whether one should gauge the planetary effect of a conjunction, in ref. to this particular event as to pertaining to Jupiter's overall influence, as to when that particular planet is in its last moment of occupancy of the exact same coordinates, i.e. XX* XX' XX".
This last event of a Jupiter Saturn conj. may have provided us all with a bit more information than we bargained for... a rather profoundly bit more information if I may be so bold as to suggest?

...and it does make sense to me when I give it some reflection....that the very last moment of a planets conjunction with that coordinate would naturally be the lasting effect that is carried on into the future at that point. just like the very last ripple of the water when a pebble is tossed into a still pond...that last ripple ever expanding outwards is that which left the last impression, the "lasting" impression upon all that it came into contact with.

Here is the chart for the last moment that Jupiter was at the exact same degree, minute and secondths of a degree as to when it was conjunct Venus, i.e. 7:12:46 p.m. June 6, 2002


and the chart for three seconds later at 7:12:49 p.m. June 6, 2002.


...and as it was to become following after the date of Sept. 11, 2001 the combo of Jupiter and Venus conj. as per regarding the next 20 years of the United States was a combination that gave as the "WHY" of a mundane chart interpretation as being that of ONE with that which indicates "War" caused by ones own nature, r.e. what is derived as to be the Part of War from ones own natal chart.
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I would like to point out that as to in ref. to the chart for the Jupiter Mercury conj. of May 16, 2001 that the chart I.C., the "HOW" of a mundane chart interpretation is at 25* Leo 37' 08" and that the U.S.A.'s natal Part of Trickery (Asc. + Mars - Moon. aka Part of Woman's Marriage which is almost undoubtedly only for use in horary charts... that is if it be a proper interpretation for such charts. It does now seem to be proper interpretation for use in natal charts as to it being a "Part of Trickery"...or at least something along those lines and likely as to only in the negative sense. I now believe that all Astrological Parts as in ref. to their Sabian Symbolism that the symbolism can be taken to mean both in a positive sense and if that is true then there is another title for this Part that is of a positive nature that is the result of the Moon being the "Trigger" to activating the "Significator", in this instance Mars, as to how it affects the personal self,, r.e. "the personal point", i.e. the Ascendant. and note that Edgar Cayce did state in a reading in reference as to what does have definite astrological effect upon everybody to also include, Quote: "...and all angles to the Ascendant", thus one should assume that all Astrological Parts that include the Asc. as the "personal point".) as it is derived to be at 25* Leo 33' 10".

That this chart is about the Jupiter Mercury conj. and what has since been observed to be nothing but "trickery" as to what official gov't accounts of the events of Sept. 11, 2001 were actually all about... it just all adds up, now, doesn't it?