Is your ascendent sign primarily expressed during childhood?

Maries

Well-known member
My mother has told me that when I was little, I was very well behaved, quiet, never any trouble, always did as I was told --in short, a "good girl." Also-- my kindergarden teacher described me as "timid."

When I hit my teens, I changed and have remained more of an impulsive, volatile personality ever since. Now, I know what happens PHYSICALLY when one reaches puberty and why the mood swings, and personality changes-- it's hormones. But is there some drastic changes in one's astrological chart at that time? It seems as if when I was a child, my ascendent sign: Capricorn was strongly expressed and was exhibited. But when I got older, my sun, Aries (and maybe Scorpio Moon) was seen more. What's going on?

Maries
 

gaer

Well-known member
Would you mind giving us your birth data? Perhaps other things could be explained that way.

My opinion is that the ascendant or rising sign is always there. Mine, for instance, is Virgo. However, since I'm aware that this ascedant may make me seem a bit cold, distant, aloof and detached, I make a conscious effort not to project the negative characteristics I associate with my own ascendant.

You also may have too narrow an idea of what Capricorn ascendant shows.

Gaer
 

wilsontc

Staff member
as a child, to Maries

Maries,

When we are children, we are just getting used to our own energies and depend on others for everything, so we give away our energies to those around us. The only thing we can't give away are the points (such as Ascendant) that are part of us and always with us. As we get older and take back our energies, the rest of our chart "comes alive" for us in our lives and our experiences.

Taking it back,

Tim
 

Stacey5271

Well-known member
Earlier this year, I got an astrological reading on my son (Aries - Scorpio asc) and she told me that children "live" in their ascendants when they are in unfamiliar circumstances. She said they have not "mastered" their sun sign yet and fall back on their ascendant for public view.

With my son (14), I know him as an impulsive tornado. But when we're in a group, or just in public, he is a lot more reserved to the point where the casual observer would never guess the impulsive tornado that I live with.

On the other hand, there's my daughter (4) who is a Pisces (Aries asc). She's my creative princess. But put her in a social situation and she becomes the tornado.
 

tikana

Well-known member
Stacey

HUH? "Earlier this year, I got an astrological reading on my son (Aries - Scorpio asc) and she told me that children "live" in their ascendants when they are in unfamiliar circumstances. She said they have not "mastered" their sun sign yet and fall back on their ascendant for public view."

that is a BS. sorry. since diapers i have acted like a scorpio vs my Leo rising. that is why for a very long time i thought i was a scorpio rising... my scorpio sun is much stronger than leo rising. I never wanted any part of being in center of attention regardless of if i was in familiar or unfamiliar territory...thatis part of my downfall because i have a lot of stuff on my mind and talents that i dont talk about it because of my thinking "why bother!" .. usually i look within for research of stuff vs reading the books. my mom always said to me that often she couldnt drag me to the backyard and play with other kids ... i was always reading or learning something. If i was out in the backyard I was kissing and smooching stray animals and take them home and nag my mom if i can have a pet. I was very anti-social. over the years, i have loosened up a bit but not much. Leo is very social; I am a hermit. a few years ago i ened up hanging in the group of people where i did not know anyone.. i dont think i said a word.. i was just looking like a typical scorpio.. I was like this whne i was a kid. Actually, if there are way too many people i usually take off within 5 min. you wont find me in a nightclub. I feel extremly uncomfortable there.
 

loonymoon

Active member
tikana, I'm a Leo with Sag rising and I'm pretty much a hermit, like solitude, extremely introverted, usually prefer disappearing in the background, as a child I was very quiet and was considered a nerd, I still am very quiet and reserved excpet with my closest friend. BTW, what's a nightclub? :p

I really didn't identify much with Leo till I realized at some point the archetypal Leo description is awfully superficial. Leo is about the process of individuation, about putting the Self in the center of our being. Being the center of attention is just one way, and the most superficial one, of trying to fulfil the lifetime goal of Leo. Looking in the mirror is just another way of trying to get a peep into the archetypal Self, there are plenty of figurative mirrors. Art, for instance.

One of my favorite musicians has a stellium of 5 planets in Leo, including the Sun and 2 other personal planets. He's a pretty important musician and singer in our region, but every time great fame and international fame knocked on his door he ran away. In total he lived decades in voluntary seclusion at his own house. When some years ago fans approached him and asked permission to create a website for him he refused. He died in anonymity as he chose to live, only a small newspaper article announcing his death. Many of the songs he wrote are extremely popular, but many people don't even know he wrote them. With his Leo stellium and Aquarius Moon he created his own breed of music, his own unmistakable individual mark, fulfilling the deepest creative life goal of Leo which is selfhood, the Self in the center of being as the symbol of the Sun indicates, and not necessarily in the center of public attention although this is quite common with Leo.

I thought that I was mostly quite different from the common Leo profile because my Cancer stellium and 8th house stellium overshadow my Sun sign, but it was kind of weird I had so few Leo qualities. Then I noticed some other Leos that don't quite fit the description, but the theme of Self and selfhood often repeats, only not necessarily in the most obvious and superficial ways. For instance, French author Patrick Modiano (Leo Sun, Aries Moon, Pisces Asc) - not quite a classical Leo personality, but the theme of search for the unknown self, identity mystery, and all in relation or through the identity of and relationship with the father - the essential Leo theme. So it's the same principle, but the way this principle will express itself in life depends on other factors in the chart and on the individual choice.

This was a bit OT, hope you'll excuse me :)
 

tikana

Well-known member
Loony

nightclub is a place where you get drunk, get hit on by opposite sex or same sex *whatever one chooses*, attempt to hear what the other person is saying but you politely nod your head and agree to whatever he/she is saying because you cannot hear squat, and dance to obnoxious at most times music and get all paranoid not to have someone slip anything into your drink.

Pablo Picasso (Leo Ascendant, Sun in Scorpio) was exactly like me.. i just love rising hell just for the thrill of it.. then sit back and watch the explosions
i get what you are saying

Tik
 

Kingsley

Well-known member
tikana said:
Stacey

HUH? "Earlier this year, I got an astrological reading on my son (Aries - Scorpio asc) and she told me that children "live" in their ascendants when they are in unfamiliar circumstances. She said they have not "mastered" their sun sign yet and fall back on their ascendant for public view."

that is a BS. sorry. since diapers i have acted like a scorpio vs my Leo rising.

It is actually not a bad statement to make about children. Children from as early as 5 years onwards have a many social environments to deal with. It is during these times that they really grasp the functional use of their persona. What I mean about persona is a type of identity that the child presents to his social world. It is usualy not the truest form of the person either however an expression of the person that shields/hides the real essence of the person for protective reasons. The essence or natural self is hidden within the persona for good reason. The person may not understand their natural self so they choose an outer personality for the context of their social world.

We often fall in love with anothers persona and later find the true character of the person and get divorced.

Identity is something that develops during teenge years however I am not saying that a child cannot express in part, the essence of their Scorpioness for example.

Many have described the ascendant degree as the persona in the Jungian sense however I am not so sure about that its sort of like that. If for example a person had Neptune on the ascendant, there would be a great deal to say about their Persona, or any planet for that matter rising in such a way.

kingsley
 

tikana

Well-known member
Kingsley said:
It is actually not a bad statement to make about children. Children from as early as 5 years onwards have a many social environments to deal with. It is during these times that they really grasp the functional use of their persona. What I mean about persona is a type of identity that the child presents to his social world. It is usualy not the truest form of the person either however an expression of the person that shields/hides the real essence of the person for protective reasons. The essence or natural self is hidden within the persona for good reason.

The person may not understand their natural self so they choose an outer personality for the context of their social world.
** even grown ups dont understand their character ..***

We often fall in love with anothers persona and later find the true character of the person and get divorced.
** i have no idea what you are tlaking about here..i am pretty comfy in my skin.. if i didnt know myself in 1987 to 1990, i would have cracked underpressure and pressure was enormous.. it was more powerful than your regular teenage peer pressure. This battle for the firsttime in my life was and still is the biggest of them all. i do not wish anyone even my worst enemy to go through hell i went through. i was 12 years old. I must admit astrology saved my life. 1st astrologer i ever went to said i had homocidal tendencies and i was goingot murder someone.. imagine hearing this when you are 12-13. So i figured okay i gotta find out what this is all about. Little that i knew at that time.. she used wrong birthtime. she put me at noon.. cause no one knows what time i was born. I didnt figure out that iw as born at 12:45 am until almost 2 years ago. she didnt even bother rectifying my chart. I remember clearly thiking i saw this phrase in Greek history book "know thyself know thy way" so i siad to myself time to figure out astrology. After a half a year, i was like OKAY this is right on target exactly as i am. so overnight I went back to my original childhood backboned personality. my mom years later told me that she was afraid that i was going to either kill someone or kill myself. and my mom coudldnt do anything to help.. she didnt even know that i when i was coming from school i was talking to this guy who was selling astrology books .. he was teaching me 10 min a day.. the system was not allowing me to change my enviroment. For the first time i was truly alone.. no one to go to or even open up cause i knew "everything i say will be held against me on a long run" which was proven on 2 occasions. I told my cousin who was visiting about this guy whom i admired because he was such a typical leo and feared because he was one of the people who was making my life miserable. she turned around , found the guy and told him what i told her.. there was almost a physical confrontation. so rule of my life is "i do not trust anyone!" so you can say astrology saved me from breaking into pieces which a lot of people wished me to go through that...The only negative ithing came out from this is i really really do not have sense of compassion or sensitivity. June 22nd 1990 was like coming from the war. I am good at solving problems vs listening to how crappy someone life is.. my nerves cannot handle it. only recently a few years ago someone walked into my life and got me all emotional about things. you would think a girl should be okay with it.. i am looking at this with "this is not me! i do not liek this feeling of mushiness agrh *puke* Becuse i am used to put emotions in the trunk of the car and use my warrior fighting skills to solve things. Evertything i am saying is in my chart. it is clear as water. My sun is overshadowing my moon by solar eclipse .. Sun ruling my asce while moon rules my 12th *closet* Venus in virgo unaspected with jupiter unaspected in aries retro arent helping at all actually they are subdrivers of my chart.***

Identity is something that develops during teenge years however I am not saying that a child cannot express in part, the essence of their Scorpioness for example.
** i dont know where you are getting with this but i can tell you one thing, i havent changed much since i was a kid. i knew my identity when i was a kid.. that i remember. i knew my limits the ups and downs. i felt restricted because my mom couldnt find time to take me to special school to develop what i had when i was born.. I knew it had it... So now i am opening those doors that have been closed. ****

Many have described the ascendant degree as the persona in the Jungian sense however I am not so sure about that its sort of like that. If for example a person had Neptune on the ascendant, there would be a great deal to say about their Persona, or any planet for that matter rising in such a way.

*** you are getting picky about asce and aspects. Basically, the person's character develops when he/she is in his/her childhood ages. if the kid sees violence, he/she will probably strike out in the future unless it is corrected early. your core of your personality is in your early childhood. In 21st century, it is getting incredibly difficult to develop a unique child's personality because he./she is in neverending computer world. they have even programs like leapfrog which teaches children how to read by playing a game on TV .. whatever happeend to readint he books to chidlren? They are becoming robots. My neice who is 20 years old.. she has absolutely no clue what is going in the world. she reads all her stuff on the net.. she is in at least 9 blogs i know of. i wanted to take her to planetarium.. do you think she wants to go? NO! she doesnt care about anything other than Britney Spears'fiasco or if Jessica Simpson's x hubby being single or not. I was talking to my other relative 18 year old.. first thing came out of her mouth was "hows britney doing" i was like "do i care!?" My TV is tuned to Discovery, History, and Science channells all day long. i can watch it while i am working cause A. it is fun B. it is educational C. i get to see places where no one is really allowed to visit... do you think she watches this? NO! but as soon as there is Britney spears oon TV .. ohh my god, she runs like a galloping antelope. i am not saying everyone is like this but a great majority are.. As much as i love computers and my profession involves compuers, i still do research by going to book stores. Parents need to understand that they need to keep the kids from computers as far as possible untilthey turn 16. By 2020, kids will be neglected and left in this cyberworld. Then we will be facing a major crisis.. So it is no only asce / natal neptune / or anyother planets issue... the outerworld helps or porhibits a child from developinga true identity. the bottom like is Development of a personality does not come from strictly within.. it comes from A. subconcious desire of knowing self. B. right parenting C. parents wanting to better themselves, the kids will follw the same routine. ****


Regards
Tik
 
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deanna

Well-known member
Great info Stacy5271!

" children "live" in their ascendants when they are in unfamiliar circumstances. She said they have not "mastered" their sun sign yet and fall back on their ascendant for public view."

Now I know why my son who is 19 months- Aries sun/Cancer asc. - will watch and stand back in a crowd. He observes - such is the crab- deciding when to poke in and out of his shell or when to approach other kids. Its not shyness - its just part of his rising sign.

Good Stuff! - Thanks!
 
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smilingsteph

Well-known member
My thoughts on this subject is this:
That children identify more with their ascendant sign. The sun sign is who we are learning to be; "What is reason as opposed to instinct" (from Cafe Astrology). Children are learning to reason with others, situations and their immediate enviornments, on a basic level, thus they are more likely to use instinct until they develop the skills to reason on a more mature level; Like when a baby instinctivly knows how to nurse from the breast. Once a child is old enough and able to reason that they need to either ask or learn to prepare food they must use what is instintive to them. Thus they are their ascendant more then their sun. The ascendant represents our most natural mechanisms of basic human function. A child operate on the basics of human functions, it is then when they accumulate knowledge and growth from their environments that surround them are they able to let their suns shine and egos to eminate to the world. I think that when a child grows they are able to incorporate the sun sign more readily to become a real culmination between the two. I think that with children and adults in any
unfamiliar situation, we react by projecting the ascendant more openly. As we become more comfortable with out immediate surroundings we can let our sun be center stage.
 

Kingsley

Well-known member
Hi Tikana,

Gotta love the worrior spirit.

All I am saying is that in the development of personality through childhood there are parts of personality in which simply have not developed yet. We mirror others via sun and moon. Our role models are precisely that. Our closest relationships are with our caretakers which are reflected in the descendent. Our attachments are also reflected in 10th and 4th however our relationsip to them is the 7th. We mirror them in the ascendant or we are opposed them in some way or experience 'the other' in some shape or form growing up. The Latency stage according to many developmental theorists is described as Identity Formation, where the person becomes a 'father' unto themselves instead of adapting to parents personality. This is the time we experience and assimilate the raw energy of our Sun.

The time frame of the developmental stage is outlined by Saturn squares at 14 and 21 years. According to neuroscientists the front part of our brain is finally fully formed at the age of 24. Around about this age according to developmental theorists is when we become psychologically whole.

Now in theory, I suppose the mastery of identity and utilising the Sun's capacity in our chart is quite different at twenty something compared to 12 years of age. And for some with Sun in 12th or Sun/neptune things are unique to their experience of self identity.

regards
kingsley
 

smilingsteph

Well-known member
I love how you applied Erick Erickson and his psychosocial crisis to astrology!! I totally agree. Identity vs Identity diffusion, 14-20, "who am I" incorporating instinct to reason to form identity, father=sun.
 

tikana

Well-known member
Kingsley

"All I am saying is that in the development of personality through childhood there are parts of personality in which simply have not developed yet.

*** i am not sure that i agree.. if you are going to that route, then until the last minute of your life, you are learning about yourself. ****


We mirror others via sun and moon.

*** i cannot tell cause sun.moon in scorio tight conjunction ***

Our role models are precisely that. Our closest relationships are with our caretakers which are reflected in the descendent.
** hmm cannot say that i am 100% clear but okay .. my case is special so i wouldnt know ***

Our attachments are also reflected in 10th and 4th however our relationsip to them is the 7th.

** hmm okay not sure if i agree but if you think it is right, guess it is ***

We mirror them in the ascendant or we are opposed them in some way or experience 'the other' in some shape or form growing up. The Latency stage according to many developmental theorists is described as Identity Formation, where the person becomes a 'father' unto themselves instead of adapting to parents personality. This is the time we experience and assimilate the raw energy of our Sun.
*Hmmm again not 100% sure wher eyou are going with this .. i never had a dad***

"The time frame of the developmental stage is outlined by Saturn squares at 14 and 21 years. According to neuroscientists the front part of our brain is finally fully formed at the age of 24. Around about this age according to developmental theorists is when we become psychologically whole. "
this is where i am having a problme with astrology and astrologers
in acient times, people lived at best to the age of 30 if they are THAT LUCKY like Ramses the Second.
if you apply astrology then by the age of 24, the person back int he day should have been already psychologically ready for everythign.. in ancient egypt, you couldnt find a virgin by age of 10! by 12-13, mose women wer ehaving a child.. . so here is my quesiton.
if planets are consistent and sending rays to us regardless of of what century we are talking about then the people's psychological foundations should not have been altered. however i dont know about the rest i am not seeing a 12 year old kid in 21st century organizing his own army *like Gengis Khan* or fathering 100 children by the age of 71 like Ramses the Second. i am not sure if generational transit can be applied to anyone. Saturn returns are not valid because of no historical background because people were either dead or killed before their 30th birthday. Nero was running an empire by age 16.
he ruled Roman empire for 14 years. He was killed at the age of 30. right around his saturn return.

you are talking about frontal part of the brain being developed fully formed by age of 24;.. again i have a problem with neuroscientists, Cleopatra became a queen of Egypt at the age of 17. Not only that but she figured out that her brother will be on her way, so she had him murdered.. Cleopatra at 20 rolled herself in the rug and had herself sent to Ceasar. You seriously need to have a brain to pull this off. We are not just talking about girls gone wild videos here. it take brains, political knowledge, diplomacy, the wits... not only she was in power but she seduced one of the most powerful if not the most powerful historical figures of all times. he was this powerful that uptill WW2, generals used Ceasar's battle techniques. Actually, Nazi's operation Barbarossa was fundemantally built on Ceasar's military strategy

so basically i have problems iwth people using generational transits like saturn returns to define maturity or psychological development.

Tik
 

smilingsteph

Well-known member
Tik-
All I can say is evolution! We have evolved as humans, so what was the rule back then is not the same as now.
Is not the purpose of a Saturn return to grow and mature psychologically? Is not saturn the father of teaching lessons for growth?
Is not saturn the identity of a father figure, if so would this not represent the sun's (sun=father) incorporation into our being?
 

tikana

Well-known member
smilingsteph

Ohh come on.. evolution? Evolution of what? US? as you might not have noticed we havent evolved at all. we do the same errors as people in ancient times... Yes, we made major scientific breakthroughs and we live longer We are the same people as we were back in ancient times. Actually, at some levels we are going backwards. Can someone engeneer pyramids? WIth all the technologies available we cannot even figure out how the pyramids were built let alone how the Stonehendge was formed or how were the statues on easter island were created.
It doesnt apply to astrology. Planets effecting by transit people = events and internal changes back then and now.
i went through my saturn return.. No effects, no changes nothing! Nothing ahppend. absolutely nothing.. relatively speaking it was superquiet. I dont know i never had a dad so i have 0 views on saturn being a father figure nor sun. The only visible aspect of the saturn was when it squared my venus a few years ago... saturn crossed over my asce a few weeks ago.. nothing happend no change of feelings . zilch. NADA!

Caligula had a brilliant father not only as a ruler but he was a good dad. Please explain to Caligula why his life was screwed up by his uncle and driven to madness. He was meant to be one of the greatest emperors of all times.

neuropsychoanalysis was not aviable in 18th century it is not even well developed.. it is only applied to newer generation. i'd like to get xrays of ancient roman 18 year old;s skull and really see how he/she is differnt from today's average.

Tik
 

smilingsteph

Well-known member
If we have not evolved then how do we have the capability to look at the brain via ct scans and eeg's? Why did they not have the capability back then to do it? Because science has evolved. How many 90 year olds lived that long in the 18th century, bet you can count on one hand the number.
 

tikana

Well-known member
Well i guess you missed the part where i said "Yes, we made major scientific breakthroughs and we live longer "
archeologists found a veryinstesting record which was talking about a fire wihtout a smoke and in semitransparant container. One guy had an idea of "lets try it" basicaly they found that egyptians have sort of invented a lightbulb ! see it for yourself http://www.crystalinks.com/egyptscience.html
if not a fire in Alexandria, no one knows what could have been discovered and invented not even mentioning Tumbatut's lost library. here is pre-historic way of using steam ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_Alexandria looks primitive but hey it worked! Brain surgery goes back to 7,000 bc! Imhoteph's medical book the only surviving scroll was written step by step on how to cure common bone breaks and etc.. it is no different than modern ways of doing it.. sure more drugs and painkillers avialable, casting is more efficient but in old days it worked as well.
Technically speaking, Xray technology was avaible.. all ingridients were around. No one was interested in funding Xray technology cause there was no profit until late 19th and early 20th century.. if my memory serves me right, de Vinci was playing around with primitive xray technology. On the bottom of the sea between italy and egypt, divers discovered 1st astrological clock that accurately kept track of all planets even retrogrades.

90 year olds in 18th century? hmm not many but then you gotta remember the plagues, famines, and neverending wars then vaccines werent around either, lead pipes were pretty much all over europe, some italian towns still have lead pipes going underneath the city.. plus religion got on the way of medicine.. If not the press and educational information we got during AIDS emidemic in 1980s, millions upon millions of people would have been dead. I am not even talking about breeding bacteria to be used as a biological weapon, which was used in ancient China, which some historians claim that caused the great plague of europe. in 6th century BC, assyrians poisoned the wells with fungus to scare their enemies. A person could not disect people. if people read ancient solutions to famines which were left by the egyptians, we would have gone further... now we are spinning our wheels and reinvent stuff which has been invented centuris ago.

Please name at least 1 thing which no one could have thought of, say, 300 years ago which has been already invented.

basically, i do not think that asce nor sun sign is a how a child expresses himsef.

speakin of a lifespan.. in africa lifespan is less than 50.. look for yourself http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Life_expectancy_world_map2.png

Neanderthal 20 Homo neanderthalensis is a similar species of modern humans but is still in any case a fellow member of the genus Homo.
Upper Paleolithic 33 At age 15: 39 (to age 54)
Neolithic 20
Bronze Age 18
Classical Greece 25-45
Classical Rome 25-45
Medieval Britain 20-30
Early 20th Century 50
Current world average 67


so .. say hmm neandrathal would not be going through the same transits as a modern human? sure he/she would. why his/her lifespan is low.. because of outside influences. woudl low lifespan show in his/her chart? it should but it should be shown across through all neathandratals +/- 5 years or so... if anyone were to look at neandrathal's natal chart without knowing the year of his/her birthday but he/she had neandrathal chart, would you have said "ohh guess what .. you should be an artist!! because your MH is blah blah blah" its the same thing what i have been trying to figure how much of external influence is comparable with a natal chart or transit chart.

Tik
 
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Kingsley

Well-known member
You don't have to agree with Child developmental theories if you don't wish Tikana. I don't wish to debate hundreds of years of behavioural psychology scientific work with you. You do tend to agree to disagree with me and I am ok with that Tikana.

kingsley
 
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