Is pluto the devil?

Frank

Well-known member
The point I was trying to make in my Tom Waits quote was that ANY planet can be a god or a devil - depending on it's dignity and placement. Jupiter/Zeus can be King of the Gods or the guy who inhabits the body of a bull to have intercourse with a woman.

Mercury can be the messenger - or the thief. Venus can be the lover or the seeds of discord or the unfaithful wife. Mars can be the the general protecting his troops, or the wanton slaughterer. Saturn can be the teacher, or the blockade to learning. The Sun could be the enlightened, or the burner. The Moon can be the nurturer or the abandoned.

This all depends on sign/house/aspects in each individual chart.

I maintain - as I have said previously - one cannot take one single factor out of context.That's not just me - but others who do this for a living with a large number of clients would agree with me.

Pluto is NOT "the devil" in general. It depends on what is going on in each individual chart.

Pluto can be difficult - but not always evil.

If you don't get that, you might not be right for being an astrologer.
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
God created it all and God did not put anything in play in astro-influence that is of the purpose/intent to harm you.
You reap what you sow or have sown [for us reincarnationists] if you have been an harmful, vindictive, selfish person in this or a previous life then the astro influences will give you your just due of most unpleasant affect.

...IMHO...of course!
ptv
 

Carris

Well-known member
I absolutely 100% believe in this quote from Dolores Cannon: "There is no evil, no devil, no hell. There are only lessons to be learnt. Earth is only a school that we souls decide to attend. Each lifetime is a class with many lessons to be learned. You cannot go on to the next class until you have learned the lessons of this one. This as a school where you cannot skip a grade but you can certainly have to repeat a grade until you get it right – no matter how many lifetimes it takes. If you didn’t get it right this time around, then you will be presented with the SAME problems and lessons until you get it."


So pluto is not the devil - he's just a intimidating teacher for us in this Earth school (saturn is the stern, harsh, disciplinarian taskmaster; jupiter is the fun teacher; uranus is the brilliant genius unconventional professor; mars is probably the active impatient sports coach; venus would teach art and etiquette; neptune would be the dreamy wispy drama music teacher, mercury would teach math language algebra, moon would nurture the pre-schoolers, sun would preside as the headmaster).

Stubborn, difficult, problematic students who refuse to learn their lessons are sent to this scary, dark, disturbing "special classes" pluto teacher so that they finally get on the right track. Pluto transforms them; destroys, destructs, devastates their ignorance - even if he has to take somewhat extreme measures. Pluto makes sure that these "special" students emerge like the phoenix from his care and go on to achieve much.
 
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Neptune Rising

Well-known member
The point I was trying to make in my Tom Waits quote was that ANY planet can be a god or a devil - depending on it's dignity and placement. Jupiter/Zeus can be King of the Gods or the guy who inhabits the body of a bull to have intercourse with a woman.

Mercury can be the messenger - or the thief. Venus can be the lover or the seeds of discord or the unfaithful wife. Mars can be the the general protecting his troops, or the wanton slaughterer. Saturn can be the teacher, or the blockade to learning. The Sun could be the enlightened, or the burner. The Moon can be the nurturer or the abandoned.

This all depends on sign/house/aspects in each individual chart.

I maintain - as I have said previously - one cannot take one single factor out of context.That's not just me - but others who do this for a living with a large number of clients would agree with me.

Pluto is NOT "the devil" in general. It depends on what is going on in each individual chart.

Pluto can be difficult - but not always evil.

If you don't get that, you might not be right for being an astrologer.

Lol, your post count is 665, Frank, be careful! :w00t:

I agree with this though, as its probably (or not) plain from my previous posts.

----------------------

From my own perspective, seeing other people as evil puts me into a victim mentality. "Oh, they did me wrong, poor me"! I've been there, worn, washed and given the t-shirt away to the charity shop. I've been on the receiving end of violent abuse, and sure, a member of family said the other month that I changed after that. Of course I changed, I needed to change, and empower myself. They probably saw the giver of the violence as 'evil' and label me as the victim. Though, I myself don't see myself as a 'victim' to the 'evil-dooer'. He had issues, I had issues, we drew each other into each others lives for a time to work through those issues. We each learned what we needed to learn, and no doubt transformed within ourselves. I certainly did, for the better, may I add. I don't see this person as evil in any way, others may do but that is up to them and their own perceptions and projections.

Again, the victim/evil viewpoint on Pluto is rather interesting, in that, going through and beyond the victim mindset to a more empowering and self-accepting one (accepting oneself and all one's faults) is the part of the empowering process of Plutonic experiences. While things remain hidden away in the unconscious, they have power over us.

I have Pluto opposite Saturn coming up in a few years, I could say "on no, some evil experience is coming my way", and the experience may well be one that causes tears. But, it is a part of life. We are not here living on a bed of roses or fluffy clouds. Life has ups and downs, goods and bads, tears and laughter (I'm sounding like an old song now), and it is all these experiences and the way we perceive them and handle them that give us heaven or hell on earth. If we shrink away from painful experiences, we will never be whole, genuine and true to ourselves. When we embrace our tears equally as our laughs, we have the ability to feel authentically whole.
 
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nemesis

Well-known member
Again, the question to ask is whether morality exists, and how you obtain the definition. Granted, there are fundamental rights we are born with, but history has shown rights aren't respected. There is no such thing as an evil person. People are not evil. There are, however, expressions of fundamental processes that are deemed 'evil.' The question is why, and interestingly enough the answer is in the word 'devil.'

I totally agree with this and it's what I was trying to get at as well. I agree with most of the rest of what you said too.

I am going to just refrain from addressing divine g think it's best....

I do wish people would try an understand things that they are afraid of. I have a big fear of sharks, it's a very irrational fear perhaps from a past life. So I read up on sharks and tried to learn everything I could about them. I very much respect sharks and find them to be amazing and beautiful creatures. sharks, perhaps like saturn or pluto are extremely misunderstood.

I have a very strong saturn in my chart and I am super thankful for it. I have two stelliums in my chart and one involves saturn and the other involves pluto.
I get along very well with cap and scorpio suns. I think they're awesome and have yet to meet a "bad" one.

In tarot everything has a good and bad side and even the devil card isn't always bad. like when people fear the death card but death can just mean a new beginning not that you're going to literally die.

And celebs like marilyn manson are performers and nothing more than that.
I really dislike people blaming the media or a singer for what other's do. We all have free will (like neptune rising was saying) also if we lived back in say medieval times you'd think a lot better of how it is now.
everything is just more in our face now because of tv and the internet but all these "evil" things have been happening way before that.

carris: I like your definition of the planets as teachers very cool :joyful:
 
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MaeMae

Banned
the opposite of Evil is Live.
the opposite of Devil is Lived.
DevilSatan wants everyone to die.
God wants everyone to live.
Pluto wants metaphorical, not literal death.
What good is he if he can't keep transforming life to live again?
 

divine g

Banned
All of you attacking me fail to address the most obvious thing. Pluto rules the underworld! What is the underworld? HADES. OR HELL. Who rules Hell? The Devil!

In mathematics, you have something called LOGIC. Where theorems can be proved with PROOF!

e.g. If A=B, and B=C, then A=C as well. This is high school math.

If the Greek Hades ruled the underworld, and the Christian Devil ruled the underworld, then the Greek Hades and the Christian Devil represent the same thing. If anyone can show proof against this logic, shut this thread down! Bc that is a person who wants to argue with Divine, just to argue with Divine.

The term hades in Christian theology (and in New Testament Greek) is parallel to Hebrew sheol (שאול, grave or dirt-pit), and refers to the abode of the dead. The Christian concept of hell is more akin to and communicated by the Greek concept of Tartarus, a deep, gloomy part of hades used as a dungeon of torment and suffering.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades

[mass attacking comment removed - Moderator] EVERYONE knows Hades/Pluto of Greek Mythology has parallels to the Christian devil. And for all we know, since Christianity came AFTER the Greeks, the concept of the Devil/Hell could actually be based on Pluto/Hades. The planets are named after the Greek and Roman gods, which is the foundation for the Latin and Greek translated Bible for the Roman Catholic church.(Catholic meaning 'universal', as they blended both Greek and Roman concepts into one in the "New" Testament.. e.g. Jesus is Jupiter+Zeus or J-Zeus) All the planets represent "gods", and Pluto is set aside as the "god of the dead", or ruler of the underworld, aka the Christian concept of the DEVIL. Case closed. Do some research to all those who DARE question my knowledge. lol I will embarass you. [mass attacking comment removed - Moderator]

And that's a response to Frank's attacking comment
Pluto can be difficult - but not always evil.

If you don't get that, you might not be right for being an astrologer.
 
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Mandy

Well-known member
Out of interest, divine g, if I have a very Plutonic chart, does that make me possessed?

Furthermore, I dont know if you saw my old post. I'd deleted it because it was mostly full of sh!t, but, in it, I explained that my exprience of Pluto is that it encourages penetration of phenomena, in general. Do you have any thoughts on this (i.e., how penetration of the good/bad may relate to your observations that Pluto is the devil)?
 
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divine g

Banned
Out of interest, divine g, if I have a very Plutonic chart, does that make me possessed?

It's hard to say, all I know is, it is very hard to control Pluto's energy, the same way it is hard for a heroin addict to kick heroin. Surely, it's possible, but you're up against a very powerful force. It's not the end of the world if you are possessed by some Plutonic/dark force bc if you can master it, then you will be reborn on a higher plane.

Im not scared of the devil. I taunt him. He's scared of me. And the only force more powerful than the devil is the force that created him, and that is GOD. If the devil is in your life, turn to God. He's not a mystery, he exists.

"Resist the devil, and he will flee from you"

And for the record, I have a pretty Plutonic chart myself. But I have transmuted that energy from Devilish to Divine:biggrin:
 

divine g

Banned
Out of interest, divine g, if I have a very Plutonic chart, does that make me possessed?

Furthermore, I dont know if you saw my old post. I'd deleted it because it was mostly full of sh!t, but, in it, I explained that my exprience of Pluto is that it encourages penetration of phenomena, in general. Do you have any thoughts on this (i.e., how penetration of the good/bad may relate to your observations that Pluto is the devil)?

Yes, I love to get to the bottom of things, no matter how ugly things can get. I'm all about facing my demons, as I have experienced it's such a rush when u conquer them! You can only come out stronger. So yes, penetration into the mysteries of life, leaving no stone unturned, is the most rewarding thing for a Plutonic person. I recently have Pluto ending its transit of my Moon, and it was HELL. But after going thru that, what else on earth can u fear?

My observation that Pluto is the devil is not theory, it's from experience with the dark side, and it's a long trip, trust me, and there's temptation to lose your soul every step of the way. Even now, the demons can sense I am of the light and try to bring me down, out of envy of that light, but it won't work. If Pluto represents the darkside, or evil, then the Sun represents the brightside, or good. The ancients all saw the Sun as representative of God. So it only makes sense that the furthest planet would be the devil and that's Pluto. It all relates.

I have Pluto natally in my 3rd, so I'm a beast for information, and facts, and I also tend to have a pretty penetrating communication style. I'm all about penetration, surface explanations just don't do it for me. And Pluto, despite being "the devil" is there to teach you about the darkside, so you can recognize it when you see it, and trust me, I know who's who in this world.
 
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Mandy

Well-known member
That was exactly the point which I made in the post that I had deleted: that it is hard to control the pluto energy. In fact, in the post, I likened it to a powerful garden hose in that, for some, the result is spraying whilst, for others, the result is nurishment.

I think I also mentioned in that post that Plutonic influnce will incline one towards penetration, but that I felt it is always one's choice what to do with that inclination (i.e., the evil will come from choice and not from the Plutonic inclination to penetration). At the most basic level, we have the grey lizard who will penetrate, however, when the result is less than desirable the ('unevolved'/grey lizard) individual will sting others and end up stinging themselves to death. In keeping with the basic level description, we also have the eagle representing the person who will rise above the resultant bs that he enocunters in his explorations. It is that last point that I was confused with: like, how can that be a bad (devilish) thing? Also, one can penetrate as deep as you want and still remian close to, and on the right side of, God the whole way down. Penetration does not have to involve evil at all.

To explain my thoughts further: there is always a choice. But that is for all people. If we can take (the all important) mythology and all that jazz out, momentarily, Pluto, itself, appears simply to compel/impel penetration. The Catholic priests, you mention, obviously, have been denied that early on in the game and, psychologically, denial of normative development could breed malformations in the psyche. So, form this (psychologically scientific) perspective, Pluto is penetration whereas evil can be seen as simply a product that arises when one is prevented to function in a Plutonic way (what are your thoughts on that? Do you agree/disagree?); that is, prevented to penetrate during normative, natural, development (i.e., when Pluto's natural teaching is prohibited).

So, in regards to my question, underlined above, do you really stand firm in your approach on Pluto being the devil? You mention the scientific approach. In that approach, you could say there are distinct correlations between Plutonic influence and behaviour. Of course conclusions about causation cannot be formed from correlations. One could conjecture that drugs/messed up childhoods are one/two of the many other additional factors that could have contributed to the 'dark' behaviour of adults with Plutonic influence. From this perspective, do you think that people born with Pluto heavy in their chart are on a test in this life, or even a fast-track route to redeem themselves from past-life evil? Is that how you consider the reincarnationist view of Pluto?
- And/or, does the 'dark' side of Pluto come simply from an inability to control the Pluto energy since it is intense and the knowledge that comes from penetration requires responsibility. I suppose from this perspective, one could argue that through Plutonian evolution one graduates to greater Godly truths, or towards God. However, in psychological psychometrics, when measuring psychological constructs, there is no absolute zero. If one is graduating, through Pluto-teaching, toward the Sun, or God, it does not necessarily mean that Pluto is the opposite. Could there not be another planet after Pluto? Or an influence in that chart that is not necessarily a planet, but another opposite factor to the Sun's force?


Congrats on the ending of your transit! I apologise if I am repeating stuff already mentioned. Just say if I am. I've not had time to read the whole thread thoroughly.
 
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MaeMae

Banned
your pluto in 3rd has been obviated. good work.
however, consider 12th house ruler of your chart and where that lands and what aspects are supporting or chalkenging that ruler.
Some people don't believe that a burning hell exists. some people believe that life on earth is hell.
therefore sun rules hell/hades or whatever in their mindsets ~ the powerful creative over the powerless destructive.
powerfully destructive could be pluto in natal, with attention drawn to breaking inhibitions, taboos.
however, destruction is nothing if there isn't reconstruction for better in pluto's mind.
how does the devil reconstruct bad to good?
 

divine g

Banned
[attack removed - Moderator]

Anyway, back to Mandy, what I gather from your post is that you don't see penetrating the mystery of life as evil, and you're correct. But it's not about you and your intentions, it's about things being what they are, and you making the best of it.

For example, if you wanted to explore the criminally insane people's minds, and wanted to enter a jail to explore that, that wouldn't make you evil. Are those psychos who raped and murdered and stole from innocent people evil? Yes, regardless what atheists or Satanic naysayers may say.
do you think that people born with Pluto heavy in their chart are on a test in this life, or even a fast-track route to redeem themselves from past-life evil? Is that how you consider the reincarnationist view of Pluto?
- And/or, does the 'dark' side of Pluto come simply from an inability to control the Pluto energy since it is intense and the knowledge that comes from penetration requires responsibility. I suppose from this perspective, one could argue that through Plutonian evolution one graduates to greater Godly truths, or towards God.
That's pretty astute, yes, I do have a reincarnationist view of Pluto, and that death is not an escape, our souls have to pay somehow in the soul karmic system. I believe in Karma, and my life is a testament to the fact that it exists. When I did bad things, I ended up in bad places, and the more bad I did, the worse it got. There really was no bottom. Now, I've changed my trajectory, and do good things, and my good deeds tend to add up to the point where, I feel so blessed by God and I don't even know what I did to deserve all those blessings. On the other hand, ever hear of criminal masterminds who got away for so long, and in the end, they got locked up for the most minor little thing? It was karma catching up to them.

I would equate jail on earth as a physical hell on earth. It's a dark place, meant to make the criminal suffer, and think about his actions. And hopefully, he returns to society with better intentions. Now if some criminals die before they can be incarcerated, I believe, as do most mono-theists, that there will be spiritual torment for him. Now, is the actual planet Pluto a place for lost souls? I don't know, but I'm open-minded, and I think deeply about things. As you say, there's nothing evil about penetrating to the essence of things. And if Pluto is a test for evil people, that would make sense, bc if there was no system of retribution, justice, or karma, the world would be an evil place indeed. Man would have nuked himself to high heaven a looong time ago.

To sum it up, yes Pluto is a test, like the ultimate test, hard as HELL (pun intended) and there is definitely karma involved, over many lifetimes. Are there other planets beyond Pluto, from what I've heard, yes, but we don't know enough about them to speak on it. So for the moment, Pluto represents the darkest side of mankind, or "the devil" so to speak..I must add that "Satan" was a fallen angel, so he was once good! So contrary to what some believe here, I don't see things in black and white. I'm a Gemini, I can always see both sides of an issue.

But to answer your question, yes, I think if we have done bad we will have to answer to Pluto, that doesn't make him a bad person, that's just his job. And it's not really the Devil that God has a problem with, it's the low-lives who actually worship the Devil that God hates. The Devil is just the test, the devil-worshippers are the ones who failed the test, and the ones who are probably providing the fuel for Hell as we speak...
 
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Monk

Premium Member
Pluto the devil? hell i don't know, hope not i have a Pluto M.C.

However the Greeks did mix gods with Egyptians and the god of the dead is related to Osiris, so perhaps Belt of Orion?

Some religious groups find Sirius interesting in this equation, that would be awkward as most countries are aligned to these points, (Alnilam or Sirius) if not now but at some stage in evolution...oops!
 

Munch

Well-known member
I'll say it again. Pluto is 'The Force.' Neither light or dark. Neither good nor bad. Pluto just 'is' and brings out whatever is in us that needs attention. For good or ill.
 

Neptune Rising

Well-known member
I'll say it again. Pluto is 'The Force.' Neither light or dark. Neither good nor bad. Pluto just 'is' and brings out whatever is in us that needs attention. For good or ill.

I do agree with this. A Reiki master who showed/taught me Reiki first enlightened me to this. There is no light/dark, there is just energy. This seems to be a very objective way of viewing the world. It seems to reduce the amount of projection that we do. Otherwise, I may well project a couple of horns onto my 'evil' neighbour who happens to annoy me sometimes. No victim mentality thank you very much, I decided to transform that into self empowerment. Perhaps that is just my own Mercury/Pluto natal trine, or natal Pluto MC/9th house side, or the result of Pluto/Moon double progressions, or just the result of a nice sunny day shining onto my consciousness.

When I was younger, I would personify Pluto at times but also project it outwards and attract situations and people who appeared to have alot of power over me. Though, I've had the gift of being able to recognise how I did this, and transform (Pluto) it into self-empowerment and no longer attract these people. Would I then look back and call this time evil, no... It is just life, a lesson and the free will to learn from it or be a victim to it.
 
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Munch

Well-known member
I do agree with this. A Reiki master who showed/taught me Reiki first enlightened me to this. There is no light/dark, there is just energy. This seems to be a very objective way of viewing the world. It seems to reduce the amount of projection that we do. Otherwise, I may well project a couple of horns onto my 'evil' neighbour who happens to annoy me sometimes. No victim mentality thank you very much, I decided to transform that into self empowerment. Perhaps that is just my own Mercury/Pluto natal trine, or natal Pluto MC/9th house side, or the result of Pluto/Moon double progressions, or just the result of a nice sunny day shining onto my consciousness.

When I was younger, I would personify Pluto at times but also project it outwards and attract situations and people who appeared to have alot of power over me. Though, I've had the gift of being able to recognise how I did this, and transform (Pluto) it into self-empowerment and no longer attract these people. Would I then look back and call this time evil, no... It is just life, a lesson and the free will to learn from it or be a victim to it.

Exactly! I tend to manifest Pluto's energy more these days than I used to, but that only makes sense given the current transits. I will say that I have actually become willful to an extent (I have not historically been willful at all - though quite angry because I let people walk all over me) and even though I am now in a 'tricky' situation because of it and I am extremely frustrated and angry, I actually feel GREAT because I finally 'grew a pair.'

I stood up for myself and 'lost' but I so won. This morning I am up early and have my game plan of attack to get past this situation. No mercy (for me) doesn't mean taking the powers that be 'down' it means getting up and doing so well that I can leave them wallowing in their own refuse, if you will. And that is the alchemy that I must perform every day with this energy or I could see it taking me to 'the dark side.' As it is, I've become sorta atheist (as in, I say I'm atheist, but really I'm just so p.o'd at the Universe/God) that I just want to hurt it (vengeance). The only way that I can think to do that is to claim that God/It doesn't exist. Of course, I know full well that I am hurting nothing and that in fact God/It is probably gently holding and rocking me while chuckling at my silliness right this very instance.

Sorry that got off track....:innocent:
 

Neptune Rising

Well-known member
Interesting, Munch. Lol, I like what you say you "grew a pair", I can totally relate. This reminded me of something I read I cannot remember where, it said, Pluto transits are like a couple of people fighting over a rubber band. Both have a hold of the rubber band. The 'winner' in Pluto situations is the one who lets go first, thus the rubber band rebounds back to the one who holds on.

Me too, going through a Pluto transit and realising several things needed to be changed and let go of. Many unconscious things coming up for me but by just sitting with what comes up, in meditation or contemplation (which doesn't need to be crossed legged saying 'aumm', it can be waiting at a bus stop), acting rather than reacting.

Again, Pluto being the devil just doesn't ring true with me. Psychoanalysis ect is very Plutonic. This is, shining the light into the unconscious and the things that are repressed in there (where is the map and compass?). Nothing evil about that. Also, the psychoanalysis doesn't even need to be with a dr, it can be in contemplation/meditation. Being in stillness and just observing what comes up. Ah the obsessions, rage, vengance - all those lovely ones. Do we choose to follow each and every train of thought, emotion, sensation that comes up, or can we catch a glimpse of the ever changing nature of these emotions and see them for what they are. The empowerment and transformative power of Pluto. When taking the journey (tarot - 6 of swords) into Hades Underworld (tarot - Death), we let the old ways of being die, they truly release and then the Gem (tarot - Star) of the Underworld is found - inner transformation, self realisaion (tarot - Judgement) , whatever you want to call it. Rebirth and a new journey (tarot - World to Fool).
 
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