Is pluto the devil?

[nemesis]

divine g: you cannot know that pure evil exists then if I cannot know it doesn't.
again I never said I knew or if I didn't know I just do not believe in black and white thinking.
hitler and many others who did what they did were mentally ill. I cannot express how horrible I find what hitler did but I do not think it has anything to do with evil or the devil.
I think you're not understanding my outlook on this.
You can't just put all the blame on Pluto for what people do.
I have a right to my beliefs as well as you do and I never said I was "all-knowing", far far from it.

Perhaps the question to be asking is whether morality exists, and how your definition is obtained for something largely subjective.

definitely largely subjective wouldn't even know where to start lol

 

[Neptune Rising]

hitler and many others who did what they did were mentally ill. I cannot express how horrible I find what hitler did but I do not think it has anything to do with evil or the devil.

This reminded me of what I've read by Liz Greene on Hitler's chart. The book I was reading, Barriers and Boundaries, I think, mentioned Hitler's chart and the Chiron. His own wounding was projected out, plus the various other factors in his chart which led to low self-esteem. Of course, without having his chart to hand, I can guess Pluto is involved, but so are other planets, plus a degree of Hitler's free will on a soul level, to be a voice and channel of public feeling of the time.

http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_wounding_e.htm

If Pluto is the devil, then I should be 'running for the hills' or donning a sword, right now, with Pluto square Pluto. To me, the idea of the devil reminds me of blame and retribution. It is projected 'out there' so we can absolve ourselves of any blame. They are evil, we are good. Good vs evil... Yet, even if they are so buried out of our conscious awareness, we have dark and light inside us each and every one of us. Again, the use of the word 'dark' is very subjective. By 'darkness', I mean things that are in our subconscious/unconscious awareness, away from conscious awareness and subject to projection. These very often are matters that involve the outer planets in our charts, until we find a way to recognise the energies of the outers, within ourselves instead of projecting them outwards.

 

[divine g]

Listen, Nemesis, stop with the rhetoric and semantics. Yes, there is a very large gray area between good and evil, but there is definitely a point, where most agree that one has crossed the line into evil.

There is nothing subjective about sex with children, genocide, murdering children in cold blood, torturing innocent ppl, and God knows what else can go on in the dark. If "evil" is a word that scares you, or you are not into the Judeo-Christian word "devil", fine, choose a word that describes the rape and murder of innocent children and people. There's no gray area there. It's not subjective. And there is a force 'out there' that compels people to do "very bad" things (which in Astrology, we call Pluto! ) See Jeffrey Dahmer, the Son of Sam, the list goes on and on.. There are evil people out there!
[provoking comment/attack removed - Moderator]

Not even gonna go into the fact that there is an actual Church of Satan out there, and others who openly say they are Satanists, bc that will just bring out some more bs rhetoric from Aleister Crowley types (a man who wrote 666 on his forehead), Marilyn Manson types, who breed the type of thinking that makes teenagers go into school shooting their classmates. I mean, really??? No such thing as evil? It's subjective?
[provoking comment/attack removed - Moderator]

 

[divine g]

Just checked Jeffrey Dahmer's chart, he was a Gemini! But guess what, his Mercury and Gemini Sun both square Pluto..

Look, Mercury is retrograde now, so I don't expect ppl to understand each other clearly now. The problem is words. Yes, "the devil" is an extreme and emotionally charged word. Chocolate cake might be "the devil" to some ppl, and in that case, it's subjective. If they're on a diet, and can't fit into their wedding dress which cost 5 grand bc they couldnt control their urges for chocolate cake, then in that case, at least to them, it's "the devil", but in kind of a funny way.

I asked this question about Pluto in a sincere way bc I genuinely want to know, and because Im not sure. Can't say yes for sure, but I can't say no either. I'm just scientific, I ask the question, and collect the data, and try to come to a conclusion, that's all folks.

 

[MaeMae]

the principle of seduction, trickery, lying ~ always evading ~ taking person to depths of reality or depths of illusion.
nep-to

 

[MaeMae]

Well I am very Plutonic and a very nice person. You may add that to your data set

i don't think i've ever met a pluto person who would describe themselves as "nice", so congrats for you!

 

[stainedBlue]

Listen, Nemesis, stop with the rhetoric and semantics. Yes, there is a very large gray area between good and evil, but there is definitely a point, where most agree that one has crossed the line into evil.

There is nothing subjective about sex with children, genocide, murdering children in cold blood, torturing innocent ppl, and God knows what else can go on in the dark. If "evil" is a word that scares you, or you are not into the Judeo-Christian word "devil", fine, choose a word that describes the rape and murder of innocent children and people. There's no gray area there. It's not subjective. And there is a force 'out there' that compels people to do "very bad" things (which in Astrology, we call Pluto! ) See Jeffrey Dahmer, the Son of Sam, the list goes on and on.. There are evil people out there! [provoking comment/attack removed - Moderator]

Not even gonna go into the fact that there is an actual Church of Satan out there, and others who openly say they are Satanists, bc that will just bring out some more bs rhetoric from Aleister Crowley types (a man who wrote 666 on his forehead), Marilyn Manson types, who breed the type of thinking that makes teenagers go into school shooting their classmates. I mean, really??? No such thing as evil? It's subjective? [provoking comment/attack removed - Moderator]
.

divine g, an appeal to numbers doesn't make something so. Aside from torture of people (which seems to be an acceptable form of interrogation throughout the world), your emboldened list remains subjective in the context of region and time. There are places in the world where children are used for sex and it's accepted as the norm. There are places in the world where children are arranged to marry and essentially live their lives as a sex slave, again the norm. Genocide seems acceptable in the name of defending a nation, or silencing a 'threat,' or defending 'interests,' or even in the name of a 'just' cause. What makes some murders acceptable and not others? And I have to ask: is murder of children any more severe than the murder of an adult? This is a trick demagogues use, and isn't very objective in its position. If your arguments have merit, let them stand apart from sentiment.

I won't address your paralipsis.

[quoted copied provoking comment/attack from previous post, removed - Moderator]

Again, the question to ask is whether morality exists, and how you obtain the definition. Granted, there are fundamental rights we are born with, but history has shown rights aren't respected. There is no such thing as an evil person. People are not evil. There are, however, expressions of fundamental processes that are deemed 'evil.' The question is why, and interestingly enough the answer is in the word 'devil.'

The English word for 'devil' comes from 'dia-bolos' if I'm not mistaken, and it means to 'separate.' Curiously, it's the antonym for 'sym-bolos' which means to 'bring together,' and is what astrology relies on so heavily to work -- symbolism. This is relevant because 'dia-bolos' is a fundamental process to interrupt the 'sym-bolos' from mediating between the levels of consciousness. The result is literalism and fallacious thinking, among other things. In turn, this can breed disturbing realities, things that don't make perfect sense because they aren't the whole picture. And it needs to be asked, should a fragment be damned for our inability to see the whole? Being the scientific person you've proclaimed to be, should the scientist be appalled and reject the object of his study because it exists and has subjectively disturbing implications, or should said scientist remain detached, unbiased, and objective, looking for how this 'unpleasant' reality factors into the whole?

'Dia-bolos' is neither good nor bad, it's simply a process. And on the flip side, there's Lucifer the Light-bearer, whom is the fallen angel whose 'sin' was pride of consciousness carried by the ego. But consciousness has allowed you to form opinions and make your conclusions, so perhaps 'sin' has benefited us all as a part of the whole?

And I ask: does 'evil' scare you?

 

[Neptune Rising]

All

Its getting quite heated here, obviously a very sensitive topic for various reasons. Please remember to keep comments strictly on the topic of the thread AND stay clear of personal comments. And respect that each person is entitled to their opinion - please NO pushing one viewpoint onto another person.

NR

 

[divine g]

[attack removed - Moderator]

From here on out, I will assume that anyone who has something to add believes in the concept of Good v. Evil, and doesn't sidetrack the thread questioning whether good or evil even exists. With all due respect,to anyone who doesn't believe in it, save it. Thank you.

 

[Frank]

To quote Tom Waits, "You know there ain't no Devil's, that's just God when He's drunk."

 

[stainedBlue]

divine g, if you're unwilling to question what evil is, this is nothing more than confirmation bias. This thread has been about evil and whether it is represented by Pluto. I've highlighted how murder is acceptable to people when in a subjectively acceptable context to make the point that morality is subjective, and that our standards are largely influenced by social constructs, in an attempt to show the possibility that Pluto is being painted wrongly. This is much the same case for change via stripping away the outworn (Saturn, mind you), as people tend to find dynamism uncomfortable, even at times fearing it and doing all they can to avoid it.

 

[divine g]

To quote Tom Waits, "You know there ain't no Devil's, that's just God when He's drunk."

Great quote, I can relate

 

[divine g]

As per the subjectivity of evil, I have already stated there is a big gray area. But I'm willing to go on record as saying everyone has experienced the devil in their life, someway or somehow..If not, they are in denial, or blinded by the fact.

The Holocaust came shortly after 1930(year of Pluto's discovery), and to everyone but Nazis and Nazi sympathizers, that was pure evil. Atomic energy was discovered shortly after and used to end WWII, and I'm sure those on the receiving end of that saw their attackers as evil. So yes, in the context of war, who is the evil one depends on whose side you're on, agreed. But the discovery of Pluto certainly didn't drop an atom bomb of love, peace, happiness, peaches and cream on planet earth now, did it?

And also, I clearly stated above that I do believe the devil has a purpose on earth. So even if Pluto was the devil, it wouldn't make Pluto or Scorpios bad, but more like a necessary evil to keep humans in check.. And being that Pluto rules extremes, and the devil represents the most extreme evil, or actual personification of evil, it is reasonable for one to see a connection. And there are COUNTLESS examples of ruthless people in history who have killed innocent people. Charles Manson, Scorpio, is in jail for the rest of his life for masterminding the Manson murders, killing innocent people in their homes. Who knows, maybe those ppl weren't so innocent, but I'm sure everyone feels safer with him behind bars as opposed to being free while we debate what exactly "evil" is.

And lastly, I can only give my own personal account of my own actual experiences. I have experienced the devil himself coming into my life, and sure enough it was a Scorpio, and just so happened to be a "she". And anyone close to me will testify I was never quite the same after that experience. At the end of the day, that's all we can speak from is experience, and experience is the best teacher. But again, Scorpio can also be the opposite of the underworld scorpion, who when transmuted becomes a noble eagle, so don't feel bad all u good Scorpios

 

[Jesusistheway]

I think Pluto could have similarities with Lucifer. Lucifer was once an angel right? Then he wanted it all and became what we call evil. Pluto rules scorpio, scorpio can sting sometimes when threatened. Scorpio/pluto is a strong energy I think, for good OR bad!

Scorpio or plutonian people are good to begin with, but maybe something can turn them over to something bad, although they have a choice ofcourse. Many people think the grass is greener on the other side, but its what gets you there that matters, if youre willing to do the "bad stuff" to get there or not.

Scorpio/pluto and the 8th house also has something to do with the other side or maybe the inbetween place, place you go when you die. And thats maybe where these "angels" and "demons" are? It works for me. I dont know what other planet would represent Lucifer....

**** girl you know too much!!

 

[Jesusistheway]

I want to add I've been having like a couple of inner planets and outer planets transiting my 8th house and I have been in telepathic report with friends, family and angels, demons and God and it has been like hell!!!! God has told me enough is enough! And not only that , people are showing their true colors in this experience! The good people I see are truly good and the bad people are just like never going to stop being unkind, and it bothers the **** out of me. Sometimes when a prompting or conversation comes to me and if its totally bogus or uncalled for or absolutely CRUEL I ask "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ manifest your true self" and it says "I'm bad you shouldn't listen to me"or "I'm Satan I tricked you!" Sometimes it says "I AM The Lord your God and.. " or "I am Willow and I am your friend... blah blah blah" Everything bows down to His name btw. The soul or spirit answers so quickly its not even funny. I swear to God, I have a gift , Doreen Virtue said it and I have it you can believe me or not whatever, The point is yes indeed the 8th house attracts darkness and so does Pluto. The only other house I can think of is the 12th but in that case it is left as one's own weaknesses not intentional cruelty.

 

[JayM]

To quote Tom Waits, "You know there ain't no Devil's, that's just God when He's drunk."

God wouldn't feel up your 6 year old kid when hes drunk

Pluto is about death/rebirth and saturn afflicted has been describes as lucifer, as the tarot cards indicate.

Look at the devil card.

 

[MaeMae]

JITW ~ isn't there a Christian principle of not telepathing demons, or anything for that matter?

Pluto is our last drop of strength before we die.
It's the courage of looking at one wjo is dying and feeling a renewed sense of life. Like a metamorphosis. How can that be evil?
It's God affirming as I see it.

 

[Jesusistheway]

JITW ~ isn't there a Christian principle of not telepathing demons, or anything for that matter?

Pluto is our last drop of strength before we die.
It's the courage of looking at one wjo is dying and feeling a renewed sense of life. Like a metamorphosis. How can that be evil?
It's God affirming as I see it.

Oh I do it all the time its not evil. I didn't say it was evil, I said it was good.

 

[divine g]

God wouldn't feel up your 6 year old kid when hes drunk

Pluto is about death/rebirth and saturn afflicted has been describes as lucifer, as the tarot cards indicate.

Look at the devil card.

Good point...I also believe Saturn represents the 666 (the 6th planet), but that Pluto is a newer, more extreme version of the classic devil of the tarot cards..

A better way to put it, Saturn is the devil ruling on the earth's surface, and Pluto is an even deeper level of evil ruling below the earth's surface..

And for the record, those here who have more of a Judeo-Christian understanding of the devil as described in the Bible would know there is a differentiation between demons, and the devil himself...Almost like a hierarchy...Someone mentioned Mars' evil attributes, but remember, Pluto is a higher octave of Mars. Mars would be that middle area. Where the Church had a doctrine of sex is bad (Mars ruling sex), yet behind the scenes, the Church fathers are having sex with kids. And sex with the same sex at that, so that's like taking what they call a sin to the extreme. So yeah, there's different levels, and Pluto takes it to the next level.

The serpent in the garden in Genesis who tempted Eve was a small devil compared to the Dragon ruling the whole world in the end. Pluto does rule endings, so there is another correlation. Also, Pluto rules the "underworld", and the Christian concept of Hell was literally underneath the world, way before Pluto was discovered. Pluto also rules death, and Hell is where u go when u die..So there are quite a few coincidences adding up here...

 

[dreamtimez]

Since Pluto rules everything dark and evil, could Pluto represent the devil himself?

I was meditating on Pluto moving through the houses, and I see Pluto in 12th as serving a dark and destructive spiritual force, aka Satan or the devil.

Anyone agree?

I have PLuto in the 12th conjoined the Ascendant ...