Is pluto the devil?

Vagabondgirl

Well-known member
Same here, been through hard times as a child and parents always fighting and so on. But as bad as it was, Im always thankful for the difficult things I had to go through in life. Cause usually you understand it later, and it all makes sense.

Ive met many people who dont see it the same way as I do, they think that one should avoid all the bad stuff in life and that everyone should have this perfect flawless life. But it cant possibly be like this...

You really do need the bad stuff in life! If not you will still have a childs mind in the end. You just get old and wise hopefully:)
 
Same here, been through hard times as a child and parents always fighting and so on. But as bad as it was, Im always thankful for the difficult things I had to go through in life. Cause usually you understand it later, and it all makes sense.

Ive met many people who dont see it the same way as I do, they think that one should avoid all the bad stuff in life and that everyone should have this perfect flawless life. But it cant possibly be like this...

You really do need the bad stuff in life! If not you will still have a childs mind in the end. You just get old and wise hopefully:)


But a child's mind is open. I wonder if the "answer" is much like Pluto itself- two sided, and to be flexible in the approach to knowledge. Knowledge very much has to do with the "Devil."
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
If anything in astrology could be compared to the concept of the "devil" (a dominating klippothic force), then, to my understanding, it would be the Dragon's Tail...:devil:
 

Solastro

Well-known member
Meanwhile after reading through all this stuff about Pluto.. evil & the devil I decided to ask *the sabian Oracle at http://www.sabiansymbols.com/page.asp?id=968 what *the Universe wants to say to us about all this.. I got *26degVir..

VIRGO 26
A BOY WITH A CENSER SERVES NEAR THE PRIEST AT THE ALTAR

It doesn't matter whether what you are doing is inconsequential, because even the smallest contribution is an important part of the whole. Give reverence & respect to your everyday routines, & find hope renewed through the promise of what's to come in the future. Your time will come as you grow & mature & you'll be able to take the higher position in life.

Doing what's simple, with silence & devotion. Participating in the toil, but not the glory. Altars & shrines. Incense & candles. Passing down wisdom & knowledge. Looking up to those in power.

The Caution: Being dominated by Spiritual hierarchy. Doing 'lesser things' to avoid responsibility. An imbalance of rewards & responsibilities. Abuse of power. Taking advantage of the innocent.

While here is what Dane Rudhyar has to say about all this from his book 'An Astrological Mandala: The Cycle of Transformation & It's 360 Symbolic Phases'.. at *26degVir..

A BOY WITH A CENSOR SERVES THE PRIEST NEAR AN ALTER.. The first stage of actual participation in the great ritual of planetary evolution.. Beings charged with planetary responsibilities are involved, we are dealing with a type of archetypal activity. ie. It represents, in however small a field of activity, a portion of the evolving structure of the Cosmos, as this structure is understod in it's "sacred" sense. Every such activity is performed "in the presence of God". The individual is "educated," ie. led out into the world of transcendent activity, He or she must learn to serve, humbly & with intense attention, in what is as yet beyond his or her Spiritual understanding.. He or she learns to perform every act superpersonally.. PRACTICE IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD...

While I also refer to Steven Forrest's excellent book on the subject.. *'The Book of Pluto, Turning Darkness Into Wisdom With Astrology'...

Pluto in the 12th House
Arena: Spiritual Consciousness; Compassion.
The Pits: Suffering; Nihilism; Spiritual Emptiness or Shallowness.

In the Tradition
... The 12th house is "The House of Troubles." Any planet there would be seen as a source of misfortune - & doubly so if the planet were an inherently "unlucky" one, such as Pluto! Take heart. We'll present a more uplifting & encouraging perspective on this, but before we do, we must consider an unsettling idea: philosophically, there is an age-old association between Spirituality & suffering.

Much illusion must be cleared out of the way before this idea has any relevance to our purposes, but it does contain a kernal of truth. Many of us have observed the phenomenon of a person blossoming into glowing Spirituality while battling cancer. That single image provides us with a clue: loss, endured consciously & with faith, can be a powerful teacher.

Do we need loss & suffering in order to grow Spiritually? That's a delicate question, but one sure insight leaps to awareness: certainly we humans are capable of experiencing Spirituality in other, more immediately attractive ways. We might, for example, feel very close to the Great Spirit while opening our hearts to a magnificent landscape, or a transcendentally beautiful piece of music - or to eachother, for that matter. Safely we can say that suffering is far from the only Path to higher faith.

Still, terrible loss strips us down to Spiritual realities faster than anything else. And if Pluto, the planet of much that is frightening in life, lies in your 12the house, what might that imply?

Your High Destiny
Is it your destiny to suffer more than most of us? If so, then no matter how much Spiritual sugar we put on it, you'll probably wind up wishing you had somebody else's birth chart. Fortunately, I can honestly report that I have not observed a particular correlation between this configuration & a pattern of catastrophy.

But what about Pluto? Here's the planet of Evil & Catastrophe. Does your "inner teacher" want you to suffer? Or, even more, become a nasty person? Not at all. Your inner teacher's goal is far simpler to say: the teacher wants you to deepen your compassion.

And how do we learn compassion? By opening our hearts to suffering. Whose suffering? Does it have to be our own? From the human perspective, that question is a pressing one. But our urgency in asking it would probably make the angels smile. And their answer, I believe, would be that it doesn't matter whose suffering you're considering. Whether it's yours or that of another being, either way compassion is the highest response that might be invoked.

And I have a *Mars-Pluto-Uranus in Virgo stellium in my 5th house!!! the traditional house of children & of spontaneous Self expression.. & my son died suddenly at 4 months old from SIDS or sudden infant death syndrome.. followed by the end of my marriage etc.. >>Hello, Self reliance!! ie. transiting *Pluto in Scorpio, 8th house.. opposing my natal Taurus Sun.. in my 2nd house.. plus SR Moon, conj 8th cusp, Pluto conj 5th cusp!!! And that was the catalyst that totally changed my life.. & eventually sent me on a "Spiritual Path".. including 12months of group process work with 'Insight Seminars' in 1998.. ie. with *Jupiter in Pisces transiting my 11th house.. culminating with a trek through the Himalayas in 1999... ie. LIFE.. as THE DIVINE MISTAKE!!!

While my natal 12th house is ruled by *Mars in Virgo conj *Pluto(dr) in Virgo.. along with *Uranus! Both exactly squaring my natal Sagittarius-Gemini Nodal Axis in my 8th/2nd houses!!! Suggesting perhaps that the death of my son may have been a set-up situation.. Soul contract or whatever.. in order to get me back to the deeper issues of life etc.. as "the Plutionian Bard" as Steve Forrest suggests for Pluto in the 5th.. & getting down to developing my own creativity with all "normal" expectations & "distractions" removed.

Ok then...
 
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Vagabondgirl

Well-known member
But a child's mind is open. I wonder if the "answer" is much like Pluto itself- two sided, and to be flexible in the approach to knowledge. Knowledge very much has to do with the "Devil."

I just meant that your mind doesnt get much wiser if there arent transforming obstacles in your life. Maybe the better word is immature.

Its true that the church in the older times didnt like science and said that it was from the devil or something like that. Theres not always a clear line between good and evil... Like drinking for example, some would say that its the work of the devil while others do it for fun and socializing.

Surgery was forbidden before by the church. It was seen as something terrible and unholy to cut open dead people for example. But today its a "cool" thing to do, to become a surgeon.
 

Vagabondgirl

Well-known member
I have this sabian symbol for my natal venus between 25-26 degrees virgo, and I was once an altar "girl" in the catholic church as a child:) With candles and censers. My father is a strong believer, but I never was and probably never will be... But I have respect for those who do believe ofcourse.

Im very sorry to hear about your child:( So sad.
 

Northstar10

Well-known member
Well, being that I was born when the sun was in Taurus, the opposite sign of Scorpio, it's quite possible that Pluto is the Devil. He is Hades, lord of lava, though we cast him to a much icier planet way far away. However, to give Pluto his due, he is the master of change eternal, and change is quite necessary in the eternal schemata of the universe. Only God Himself is totally permanent, but to know no change at all, that would be the real Hell, or maybe it's Heaven. Some people believe that God is actually the Devil at the core of who He is, but that He is benevolent enough to delude us. It is often Saturn that is associated with Satan, too.
 
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Neptune Rising

Well-known member
The 'devil' has so many connotations.. I am ingrained with the Catholic view of the devil, although I've studied other religions and theories. Coincidentally I spoke to a lady the other day about the devil and its arrival on earth, maybe which coincides with 2012... I also am not a practicing Catholic, I just have the theory a bit.

Bhuddism views this differently, I'm not even sure if they view such a 'devil'...

Devil as I think I understand it is more of a trapped energy, people cannot see any light when they are trapped by the devil. They are trapped in a material viewpoint of tangible things on earth, maybe with a mix of greed and selfishness thrown in.

Coming back to Pluto, I don't think he is the devil at all. From my own experience with Pluto, I have transformed myself into a much (hopefully) wiser person during a Pluto transit across my North Node/Neptune/Ascendant in the last 10 years. Pluto certainly does heal through transformation. In synastry, I have always improved myself through meetings with the other person's Pluto aspecting my inner planets. Each change has progressed me on an evolutionary journey, never for the worse, looking back.

9th house Pluto trine Aqua Mercury, I like to study religious theories and concepts:biggrin:.

I'm still trying to figure out though, the concept of the devil arriving on earth as has been prophesised, and what this can relate to astrologically... its all symbolic, though I'm sure the understanding will come when its mean't to. Perhaps I'll start a thread on that...
 
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Vagabondgirl

Well-known member
Well, being that I was born when the sun was in Taurus, the opposite sign of Scorpio, it's quite possible that Pluto is the Devil. He is Hades, lord of lava, though we cast him to a much icier planet way far away. However, to give Pluto his due, he is the master of change eternal, and change is quite necessary in the eternal schemata of the universe. Only God Himself is totally permanent, but to know no change at all, that would be the real Hell, or maybe it's Heaven. Some people believe that God is actually the Devil at the core of who He is, but that He is benevolent enough to delude us. It is often Saturn that is associated with Satan, too.

I feel that God has a little saturn in him too... He is strict in away. And he is the "father" of mandkind, and I thought Saturn or Capricorns 10th house represents the father.
 

Northstar10

Well-known member
I feel that God has a little saturn in him too... He is strict in away. And he is the "father" of mandkind, and I thought Saturn or Capricorns 10th house represents the father.
I've often felt that God is very Saturnian and Capricornian in a variety of ways, the Christian God. Capricorn is fabled to be very gentle on the outside, yet hard as nails on the inside. God is also severely idealized, yet when we analyze the biblical texts, is full of animosity towards humanity. He is like a wraith that haunts humanity, yet also a great ideal, guide, and sure and steady support for people of faith. Capricorn is that which unites the heights and depths of humanity, the highs and the lows, like the heights of the mountain goat and the depths of the sea beast. It is also that which unites spirit and matter. I read that the full manifestation of spirit in and through material life is goal of this sign. In the element of Earth, it is like the crystal, uniting the light of truth and order with the basic dark matter of earth. The association of Capricorn with the Devil may be because of the feeling of being like a spirit or ghost trapped in matter, though the full manifestation of spirit in and through matter can be something of a divine and Godly experience. I read somewhere that the association of Capricorn with the devil is also because the Capricornian ideals of divine light unto the darkness of material life kindle the ego's need to accrue spiritual power and dominion over or against all life. One of the main lessons of Capricorn is humility, so I wouldn't go so far as to say that Capricorn is the God of the zodiac. Taurus is, of course. Just kiddering.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
In my understanding of the subject, I follow the hermetic definition of a "symbol":



"A symbol is an external representation* of an internal**reality"



(*this term has also been translated as "reflection" or "manifestation")
(**this term has also been translated as "interior")
 

divine g

Banned
Devil symbolism relates to Capricorn and Saturn. For the reason that the largest possible physical object on earth is a mountain, a mountain represents the mass/large/furthest influence of the earth element. An animal at one with, or perfectly adapted to master the difficulty of the mountain is the goat. Therefore the master of the mountain, or the ruler of Capricorn is depicted as a goatlike figure.

Pluto is not the devil unless he rules Capricorn rather than Saturn.
Dear Charmvirgo,
Where to begin...If Capricorn rules the devil, why do we celebrate Christmas, the birth of Christ during Capricorn? Then celebrate a whole new year of life on New Year's day. Great time of year, especially if you've been good.

Saturn is the devil only to bad people. Like a strict parent taking the keys from his drunk kid on new year's eve. Kid thinks parent is devil. In society's eyes, that parents a saint, a godsend. Saturn is like God, the Father, that very strict parent who lays down strict rules to follow, for your own safety. If you do break Saturn's rules, then off to Satan you go, so Saturn and Satan are Two different things. Saturn is here to save, Satan is here to destroy, and Scorpio rules destruction.

As for the Virgo representing Eden, I dont think so. Taurus is a much more fertile time, the most BEAUTIFUL time of year, the end of Virgo is the cusp of the long dark winter and fall ahead. Whereas Taurus is the beginning of beautiful spring and summer. I honestly strongly disagree with some of your ideas and I'm wondering if you back them up with experience and logic. These 2 main points especially. You're so way off here, I have to ask, where are you coming up with this stuff? If we want take wild guesses, at least let them make sense. Being that Taurus is at the beginning of the Zodiac, doesn' t that automatically make it a better fit for Eden being spoken of in the beginning of the Bible?

Ps who told you that the Garden of Eden is a symbolic place? Where is your proof? Have you studied scriptures? Because the Bible SPECIFICALLY mentions Ethiopia, The Tigris River and the Euphrates River as points of reference, and these are ACTUAL places. So again, please, come with FACTS, not your opinion. Thanks.
 
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Northstar10

Well-known member
It seems that Capricorn's work is actually to Sa-turn the tides on Satan, all that is hard in life. Capricorn is divine yet humble. Capricorn accepts Satan as a part of himself, yet is mastering him. Pluto is something of both Hell and the Lord above. Pluto is also a wealth God, but the wealth of Pluto is so powerful that it will just sting you if you greed for it, or even think about it the wrong way. XOXOX. It's a wealth on a spiritual level more than a material level. Taurus ensures that we get to keep the good things in life, to fix that this world will not be destroyed. Scorpio is fixing to a destiny beyond the hardships of the material plane.
 
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Solastro

Well-known member
Meanwhile here is what 'The Mythic Tarot' has to say about the Archetype of 'The Devil' which interestingly is the card immediately after the 'Death' card, represented by Hades, Lord of the Underworld, ie. Pluto!

The Devil card
On an inner level, Pan, the Devil, is an image of bondage to the crudest, most instinctual aspect of human nature. Because the God was worshiped in caves & grottoes, attended by fear, his image within us suggests something that we both fear & are fascinated by - the raw, goatish & uncivilised sexual impulses which we experience as evil because of their compulsive nature. Since the dawn of the Christian era, Pan has been appropriated into the figure of the Devil, complete with goat-horns, & leering grin, & he is despised by Spiritual folk as Apollo once despised him in Greek myth. Plutarch recounts how, during the reign of Emperor Tiberius, a mariner sailing near an island heard a mysterious voice call out to him, 'When you reach Palodes, proclaim that the great God Pan is dead.' But the presence of this card amoung the Major Arcana of the tarot suggests that Pan did not die. Rather, he has been relegated to the nethermost recesses of the unconscious, representing that which we fear, loath & despise in ourselves, yet which holds us in bondage through our very fear & disgust.

We may find something noble & romantic about the card of Strength, or the wilful horses of the Chariot. But it is more difficult to perceive nobility in Pan. Yet in myth, he was not evil, merely untamed, amoral & natural. It is the paralysis of the humans who are held enthralled in terror & fascination which creates the problem. The card of the Devil implies blocks & inhibitions, usually sexual, which arise from our lack of understanding of Pan. Although he is ugly, he is the Great All - the raw life of the body itself, amoral & crude, but nontheless a God. The energy which is expended in keeping the Devil in his cave, shameful & hidden, is energy which is lost to the personality, but which can be released with immensely powerful effect if one is willing to look Pan in the face. Thus The Fool must learn to confront with humility the basest & most sahameful aspects of himself, or he will remain forever in bondage to his own fear. Then, in order to hide this shameful secret, he must pretend that he is superior & projects his own bestiality on others, leading to prejudice, bigotry & even persecution of individuals & races who seem to him evil.

And what card comes after The Devil card, well The Tower card. While all this brings the secret life of Tiger Woods to mind of course.. as that which was hidden, came out into the light.

The Tower card
On an inner level, the God-struck Tower is an image of the collapse of old forms. The Tower is the only man-made structure in the Major Arcana, & is thus a representation of structures, inner & outer, which we build, like Minos, as defences against life & concealment to hide our less agreeable sides from others. In many ways The Tower is an image of the Socially acceptable facades we adapt to hide the beast within. Then we use our professions, our good credentials, our affiliations with respectable institutions & companies, our carefully mannered Social roles, our politest smiles & most diplomatic exchanges, our magazine inspired appearances & family instilled morals, to hide the shameful secret which in the card of The Devil awaits The Fool in the underworld. The Tower is a structure of false or outgrown values, those attitudes towards life which do not spring from the whole Self but are put on like costumes in a play to impress the audience.

Thus, when The Fool confronts the great God Pan at the heart of the Labyrinth within, he is changed by the encounter. He is more humble, more complete, & more "REAL." Inevitably, this change will result in changes occurring in outer life. Just as our attitudes are altered by any encounter with what lies in the unconscious, so too are chosen lifestyles. One of the reasons why many people fear this inward looking process is that they are dimly aware that, having discovered one's real nature, one can no longer pretend in the eyes of the world. Honest encounter with The Devil invokes a profound inner integrity, & thus The Tower, the edifice which represents the values of the past, must fall.

This card, like the cards of Death & The Devil, depends a great deal upon the attitude of the individual in terms of how difficult or painful it is to deal with. Obviously it is more creative to ask oneself where one is constricted or bound by a false persona or image, because a willing effort to break through this pretense can spare a great deal of anguish. But it seems that The Tower will fall anyway, whether we are willing or unwilling, not because some malicious external fate decrees it, but because something within the individual has reached boiling point & can no longer live within such confines.

Ok then...

**NB: References from 'The Mythic Tarot Book' by Juliet Sharmon-Burke & Liz Green.
 
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Solastro

Well-known member
Vagabondgirl,

Yes that symbol for your natal Venus in rather interesting.. And thanks for your note of sympathy, it's almost 15 years since my son died. Actually it's tommorrow. He died on June 10th, 1995 at about 3.25pm AEST, under *the Scorpio Moon, in my 7th house.. opposing my natal Mercury in Taurus, ruler of my 5th. While part of my 'Insight' experience also included me standing in a room full of fellow 'Insight' participants balling my eyes out after some guy began talking about missing his own infant son after his divorce. Anyway then while right in the middle of receiving a group hug from everyone there I felt "a prescence" above the room & these words come down directly into my mind.. "THERE'S NO NEED TO CRY, EVERYHING'S PERFECT JUST THE WAY IT IS"!!! And in that instant I felt a wave of "energy" rush through my whole body from head to toe instantly calming me.. suddenly finding myself at peace as I stopped crying & stood there wondering what just happened & where did that voice come from.. Well that is after I actually gave it some thought some time later...

And all this starting this 4 day course on Nov 18, 1998 called *"Centering the Heart". With my *prog Aries Moon,(13deg48) in my 12th house.. applying to 'exactly' sextile & trine my natal Gemini Nth Node,(13deg47) in my 2nd house.. along with my natal Sagittarian Sth Node,(13deg47) in my 8th house.. while all also closely trine & sextile my *prog Leo Part of Fortune,(13deg32) in my 4th house.. while all also closely semi-sextile, square, inconjunct *Pallas in Pisces,(13deg33) in my 11th house.. while all also closely inconjunct, square, semin-sextile & opposing my natal Mars-Pluto in Virgo,(13deg46) in my 5th house. While *Jupiter in Pisces,(18deg10) in my 11th house.. also applying to closely trine my natal Neptune in Scorpio,(18deg20) in my 7th house..

Perhaps all this has something to do with my natal Saturn-Ceres-Chiron in Pisces, in my 11th house.. all closely trine my natal Neptune(r) in Scorpio, in my 7th house.. ie. my opening up & sympathy with or to the "non-rational" dimensions...

Meanwhile rather interestingly as I am writing all this psychic medium John Edwards appears on TV!! Synchronicity is alive & well.
 
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MaeMae

Banned
pluto is primarily concerned with exposing the truth of soul, plumbing personal psyche and encountering metaphorical death/rebirth through the above.
he's not really interested in perpetuating self-untruths. that's more of neptune's domain.
 

Cold Fusion

Well-known member
And with that being said, Pluto can also be seen as God's bad side...

I just stumbled on this scene from Training Day. Denzel Washington, Capricorn, does a great job of acting like the devil personified. The co-actor is a Scorpio, he's actually the good guy, who ends up shooting Denzel in the end. This is all random, but I think Denzel's character really reflects Pluto in Capricorn now, as a ruthless authority figure abusing his power..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGJ7Ct6LHs8&playnext_from=TL&videos=-fm4LBA6wHA&feature=grec_index

This scene better personifies him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkNDQD0gkAU&feature=related

And this clip from The Quick and the dead also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp_jriZDSS8
 
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