I am unclear about a couple things with my chart

[Stelicho]

Hi all

I had a couple of questions about my chart.

I use Astrotheme and a couple other sites like Astrodienst, and a program on my other computer called Solar Fire Gold

Now the charts very widely depending on what I am using to calculate the chart.

For example, the Astrodienst chart says that my Mars and Saturn have a trine aspect. Astrotheme does not.

Which is correct?
Why do they report differently, if they use the same houses and such?

What is the best way to calculate my chart, given my location in the western us?

Thanks again,
stelicho

 

[Marinka]

Changes in Aspect listings will depend on what you allow for an orb. I usually use about 6 degrees but some programs/people use 10 degrees or some might use less.

 

[Krewster]

I heard that Solar Fire allows (as my Sirius program does) tweaking of the aspect set...

it is the part of Sirius in which I have spent the most time (other than the wheel display) as the orb settings are loosened vs. tightened for me to judge (based on familiarity with the native being displayed) how loose is too loose...

Depending upon display of how many additional minor aspects you decide to turn on in that aspect set, I predict you'll go tighter and tighter on the orb settings (but understand that such orb policy, being developed over a several year period, may not be swallowable in one gulp).

 

[greybeard]

Are all chart positions the same....do the two or three programs you've used give the same positions for Mars and Saturn?

Or are the produced charts actually different?

 

[Stelicho]

Yeah they are all the same. Saturn 19 Cap, Mars 27 Tau.

I am not too sure how to (correctly) tweak the orb settings in SFG. I'm trying some different stuff.

As far as the orbs go, That Saturn- Mars thing should still count as a trine, right?

 

[Marinka]

I would not count that as a trine. I allow 6 degrees for major aspects and 3 for minor.

 

[greybeard]

I thought I had posted here...and the post disappeared.

Krewster uses very tight orbs and uses minor aspects extensively. He represents one extreme.
I use wide orbs and don't give the same importance to the minors. I'm at the other extreme.
Marinka uses conservative orbs.

So...the orb allowed an aspect is a matter for each astrologer to decide.
Some lists of orbs give more to Sun and Moon, less to Venus and Mercury.
There is the question of moiety based on the "sphere of inflluence" of each planet.

Here you have a separating 8-degree trine. Should you allow it or not? The fact that astrodienst says yes and astrotheme no should alert you: this aspect is marginal for strength.

Ancient astrology considered aspects by sign. The old timers would call it a trine. The modern trend has been toward narrower orbs. Both malefics are in Earth; that catches my eye. Saturn is in domicile while Mars is in exile.

The personality of the individual astrologer affects methods used and what is "seen" in interpreting a chart. I see the world through my eyes; they are not your eyes. If yours is a personality that tends toward seeing the world in terms of black and white or thinks orbs should be strictly defined, then narrow and rigid orbs are for you. I don't think the world and the people who walk upon it are so cut and dried. I use wide and flexible orbs that sometimes inject other chart factors into the equation.

Personally, I would allow your Mars-Saturn trine...but it is wide and separating, therefore weak and not of particular importance in the interpretation (character and destiny), other things being equal.

We see Saturn in domicile... I would ask if he is in an angle, is lord of the horoscope or in some other way brought to prominence. If he is, then perhaps the wide-orbed aspect gains in importance because Saturn has enhanced power in the chart. Most astrologers don't look at aspects in this way, be warned.

I will never forget one chart I read many years ago. Based on an opposition of 13 degrees and some change, and that alone, I made a very specific prediction* which turned out to describe exactly what had happened in the man's life. If this wide aspect so accurately depicted an event in the life, then it follows that the same aspect must also and as accurately describe traits of character strongly affecting life-development.

So...whether you accept the trine as effective or not depends on you.

*Prediction -- I read this chart for a man about 35 I had never met or even heard of before. The event occurred at his age 13. I specified another person who was the effective cause of the event, the exact nature of the event and its consequences in the native's life. The horoscope takes the moment of birth as its point of reference. So please don't tell me this was not a prediction (because the event had taken place some 20 years before the chart-reading, "in the past" at the time of the reading.) It most certainly is a prediction.

 

[amandajoie]

I think the orb is too wide but saturn is strong so u might count it... Plus the aspect is separating, unless mars is retrograde, maybe check midpoints to see any correlation between saturn/mars. Significant planets jump out sometimes when you look at midpoints, and gives and explanation beyond mere aspects that you might never have thought of.

I have mars aqu 7'42 separating from a square with saturn sco 1'59 and I'm pretty sure it's played out, unfortunately, even though it's 5' -6' orb. And the planets might contact in your progressed chart, so check that too

 

[Roudic]

I'm sorry for dropping in lol but this is really interesting. Does the aspects explains events in life that closes the personality effect upon the person. And does the applying and Sep status of the aspect explains if the aspect happened in the past or to happen later on in life

 

[miquar]

Hi. In solar fire you can create numerous aspect sets. In each one you can choose the orbs used for each aspect individually, and also use different orbs when the aspect involves the Sun or Moon, and different orbs for applying and separating aspects. It will be under the preferences header or the chart options header. You can also choose to display certain points but not show aspects to those points on the chart wheel.

 

[Stelicho]

I think I understand better now.

Although I don't understand why people use different orbs.
Why the change?

 

[miquar]

Traditional astrologers used orbs as large as any used today. But then they had less techniques to consider. Probably the increase in astrological techniques is synchronous with an increase in the sophistication of the human psyche. It is unlikely that a trine with an orb of 6 or 7 orb is going to be more significant than some of the midpoint contacts in the same chart. So once we have looked at the aspects which are based on relatively small numbers and which are reasonably close, and we start looking for extra detail, wider aspects based on small numbers are only one part of that next level of detail. I think this is why many astrologers - though not all - would rather use, say, a 5 or 6 degree orb for a square than a 10 degree orb.

By aspect based on a small number, I mean an aspect based on a division of the circle by a small number. The largest number used by Ptolemy was, as far as I am aware, 6, which excludes the quincunx and semisextile because these aspects are based on the number 12.

5, 7, 9, 10 and 11 have been given less significance compared to the numbers 6, 8 and 12, because the latter set of numbers can be made from the numbers 2 and 3 (multiplying). There is a sound harmonic basis for this bias, but of course every number means something at some level, and so every aspect is significant in some way to some extent.

 

[miquar]

Hi Roudic. You can see the aspects as showing how the various functions operating within the whole (represented by celestial bodies) work with each other. On which harmonic are they attuned to one another? What is the dynamic of their relationship? Do they cooperate in a relaxed manner (3rd harmonic - trine) or in a tense manner (4th harmonic - square).

 

[Stelicho]

I was toying around with the orbs and found that if it were counted, I'd have a Grand Trine in Mer,Mars,Sat. Would you count this Star of David? How often is Hygeia used in Astrology? I know that some of those sextiles are generous.

 

[miquar]

Hi. If we start using all sorts of celestial bodies, then everyone has a Star of David configuration. And, yes some of the orbs are too wide.

 

[Stelicho]

Sure I can see that. I'm just exploring all of these settings now to create a more comprehensive idea about casting charts. How about this chart I've attached? I included only the bodies that Astrotheme uses as well as the Asc, Dsc, IC, MC. Do these count? Also I removed my custom aspect set and switched the set to "All Harmonics". Are Harmonic aspects valid?

I'm not looking for cooler versions of my chart, I'm trying to understand why there are so many different variables and what aspects actually count.

I left a filter on in the chart to make it less messy. The "Harmonics" have lots of small aspects.

 

[miquar]

Hi. Every celestial body and every aspect is valid in one way or another, so its just a matter of deciding where to draw the line. All aspects are harmonics. The conjunction is a first harmonic aspect, the opposition a 2nd harmonic aspect, a difference of celestial longitude of 9 degrees is a 40th harmonic aspect, as is 81 degrees (9X9). This means that an opposition is also a 40th harmonic aspect (20X9) but its most fundamental harmonic is the 2nd.

Its not possible to look at all of the higher harmonic aspects, but it can be useful to look at the 4th, 5th, 7th and 9th harmonic charts to see if there are any strong configurations. For example if there is a close grand cross in the 5th harmonic chart, then the planets involved are forming a 20th harmonic syndrome (because 4X5=20). But to look at every aspect in that chart would be too much information to handle.

Some recommended books are the two which David Hamblin has written, and also Working With Astrology by Harvey and Harding.

We don't normally consider the angles or any of the other nodal axes (such as the lunar nodes or the vernal and anti vernal points) when looking for aspect configurations (also called harmonic syndromes).

Higher harmonic aspects use proportionately smaller orbs. In a higher harmonic chart you can use the same orbs that you would use on a 1st harmonic (ie basic natal) chart because the orbs get multiplied by the number of the harmonic. For example if two planets are 175 degrees apart in the 5th harmonic chart, they are forming an opposition with orb 5 degrees in that chart, which shows that they are actually forming a 10th harmonic aspect (5X2=10) with orb 1 degree.

A Star of David is a 6th harmonic syndrome, and so is a kite configuration or a mystic rectangle.