Hyleg and Alcocoden

dr. farr

Well-known member
TSMALL
In whole sign, Sun in same sign as ascendant and above the ascending degree CANNOT be cadent-it must be in the first house; Liber Hermetis (earlier than the 6th century AD) made a big deal about this, and gave quite different indications for the Sun IN THE FIRST HOUSE, being above the ascending degree (therefore diurnal) vs being below the ascending degree (and therefore being nocturnal)
Only in Equal house and all the quadrant systems, can the diurnal Sun in the same sign as the ascending degree, become "cadent" by being placed (by these methods) in the 12th...I consider this evidence of the unnatural ramifications which various theoretical house division systems, can produce...(my opinion)
 

waybread

Well-known member
tsmall, I admire you as well! Actually, I think we agree that if people wish to study traditional astrology, there is no harm in exploring its many pathways.

Where I would draw the line, however, is in actually applying length-of-life determinations to give a living person a death prediction. I can give additional reasons, if anyone is interested. I just feel the need to state this because I have seen threads where a fledgling astrologer gives a "friend" a death prediction and it messes up the friend's life. I would hate to see anyone take Omnisphericus's information and apply it to living people, especially where there is no agreement on proper calculations to use.

However, I also think it is fair game to question how reliable these measures really are. If I did wish to apply them, say, to dead celebrities, would it matter if Whitney Houston had been in the jet that crashed into the World Trade Center on 9/11? Because hundreds of people would have died with her-- almost simultaneously. Does it matter that average life expectancies today in most of the developed world skew the dates of death well into old age for most people?

Just because astrology's critics ask these questions should not deter people who love astrology from asking them, as well. A valid question is a valid question, regardless of who asks it.

Dr. Farr, I think you have a sensible approach, of suggesting that a practitioner such as yourself might discuss really critical times in a client's life, but doing so in a way that is helpful, rather than potentially harmful.

Omnisphericus, thank you for your thoughtful answers to my questions.

My problem here isn't with future predictions per se. I think we all engage in looking at transits and progressions. Nor is it with traditional astrology. If people wish to study traditional astrology, more power to them.

But I don't think we can shape evidence entirely to fit our theories. The individual you cite did not die at 10 months. This is self-evident. He may have had a near-death experience, but that is not the same as being dead. If calculations used to post-dict Whitney Houston's death should turn out not to work with other deaths, we have to reconsider one's methods.

My personal belief is that death is merely a kind of birth into another dimension. A death chart can often show the nature of the final illness or injury, therefore; but that is as far as I am prepared to take it.

Anyway, I've made my points. See you! Carry on!
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Again, my belief (and that of many others) is that death is NOT predicted nor predictable, but CRITICAL YEARS are and can be estimated, using a variety of delineative techniques; there is only one valid reason for such estimations, and that is so that something can be done to facilitate the individual in that critical year. Otherwise it is vain curiousity, which is never a good reason for anything!
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
IMO we are all agreed that Omnisphericus thread is intended for the purpose of exploring the idea that the Hyleg and Alcocoden are an indication regarding the Vital Life Force of the native - meaning the potential Vital Life Force in the absence of any form of intervention:smile:
So, Hyleg and Alcocoden are showing the Vital Life Force of the native. They show how much years in life do you have according to the 'Esse' or the condition of your body and soul. With the modern medicine it seems out that this Esse is prolonged,

If the nativity dies from a serial killer, or a car accident H & A does not count, they do not show the accidents, they show the condition of the body and soul and accordingly how much years one have
.
dr. farr has underlined the value of this approach of assessing potential Vital Life Force of the native for simply therapeutic purposes::smile:
However, I do think that many use this kind of thing for indications of potential critical years rather than fatalistic death clock predicting

-I KNOW that most reputable jyotish use "longevity" evaluations for just that purpose (indications of critical years), and in astro-therapeutics these "red flag" indications, derived from such methods, are of value in preventive therapeutics.


For example - and completely different from the technique described in this thread - use of simple symbolic progression (1 year = 1 degree, first mentioned in the 12th century by Ibn Ezra in his "Beginning of Wisdom") can be quite valuable in pointing out potentially critical times: use of the progressed SN to various natal points is one of these valuable methods:

in the case of Whitney Houston, her progressed SN conjuncted her ascending degree (8 Pisces) at her 48th birthday (natal SN @ 20 Capricorn): astro-therapeutically, this would have been a red flag that her 48th year was a definite critical period,

and preventive measures (low stress, much care about drugs and medication, tonification for her heart -which her natal indicated as a potential weak area in her health, etc) would have been prescribed for her by a knowledgeable practitioner;

the fact that classical hyleg/alcohedron analysis (which I myself do not use) also indicated her 48th year as possibly anaretic (as one of 3 such possible critical years using the analysis given in this thread) would have decidedly underscored the critical-ness of the 48th year and the importance of undertaking natural (non-drug) preventive and corrective measures, during that time...
IMO dr. farr has highlighted the importance of these techniques in SUPPORTING the native at critical times during the life

dr. farr thank you for encapsulating the historical rationale highlighting the unambiguous clarity of whole sign houses :smile:

TSMALL
In whole sign, Sun in same sign as ascendant and above the ascending degree CANNOT be cadent - it must be in the first house;

Liber Hermetis (earlier than the 6th century AD) made a big deal about this, and gave quite different indications for the Sun IN THE FIRST HOUSE, being above the ascending degree (therefore diurnal) vs being below the ascending degree (and therefore being nocturnal)

Only in Equal house and all the quadrant systems, can the diurnal Sun in the same sign as the ascending degree, become "cadent" by being placed (by these methods) in the 12th

...I consider this evidence of the unnatural ramifications which various theoretical house division systems, can produce...(my opinion)
 

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
Omnisphericus, I didn't want to turn this into a rmc, but chart attached. It's a good question about Sun in 12th, mainly because I've never understood how the Sun, above the horizon in a day chart, in the same sign as the ASC could be cadent, but that's probably a topic for another thread. I see now that we should have looked at ASC all along, and I must have misunderstood the directions. :unsure:

waybread, I understand your concerns about predicting death, but I don't think that is what we are trying to learn here. I don't know if you read the thread that inspired this one (linked in the OP), but Omnisphericus and others were quite clear that this method is not about predicting death per se...

tsmall, I've calculated your chart in an Alcabitius house system in my Morinus traditional software. It is a house system which was used in great deal in medieval times, and many of leading trad. astrologers today are using it.
Lets try to see what we'll find here.
tsmall.jpg

Sun is indeed cadent, but Mercury and Jupiter are on the Ascendant. Mercury is within of 5 orbs and has strong influence over the ascendant.
Nor Sun nor Moon can be Hyleg. The first is in 12th the second in 6th.
Your syzygy prior the birth was New Moon, so the chart is Conjunctional.
We look at the Ascendant for potential Hyleg.
Ascendant is at 14 degrees Libra.
Domicil ruler = Venus 5 points
Exaltation = Saturn 4
Triplicity ruler = Saturn 3
Term ruler = Jupiter 2 points
Face ruler = Saturn = 1 point
Saturn takes the greatest dignity in this degree (it is the Almuten of the Ascendant).
In order to be Hyleg it must have an aspect, so lets look at this.
Saturn does not make an aspect. The 150 aspect was not familiar to the medievals.
Next we look at Venus as second with points.
She does not make an aspect either.
Next we look at Jupiter.
Jupiter on the Ascendant!
So Jupiter is the Almuten of the Hyleg Ascendant!
 

tsmall

Premium Member
tsmall, I've calculated your chart in an Alcabitius house system in my Morinus traditional software. It is a house system which was used in great deal in medieval times, and many of leading trad. astrologers today are using it.
Lets try to see what we'll find here.
View attachment 26929

Sun is indeed cadent, but Mercury and Jupiter are on the Ascendant. Mercury is within of 5 orbs and has strong influence over the ascendant.
Nor Sun nor Moon can be Hyleg. The first is in 12th the second in 6th.
Your syzygy prior the birth was New Moon, so the chart is Conjunctional.
We look at the Ascendant for potential Hyleg.
Ascendant is at 14 degrees Libra.
Domicil ruler = Venus 5 points
Exaltation = Saturn 4
Triplicity ruler = Saturn 3
Term ruler = Jupiter 2 points
Face ruler = Saturn = 1 point
Saturn takes the greatest dignity in this degree (it is the Almuten of the Ascendant).
In order to be Hyleg it must have an aspect, so lets look at this.
Saturn does not make an aspect. The 150 aspect was not familiar to the medievals.
Next we look at Venus as second with points.
She does not make an aspect either.
Next we look at Jupiter.
Jupiter on the Ascendant!
So Jupiter is the Almuten of the Hyleg Ascendant!

First, thank you for taking the time to explain this in a way that is so easy to understand! (And Saturn as Almuten of the ASC was a light bulb moment for this student! :smile:)

So ASC is Hyleg, and Jupiter is Alcocoden. What are the criteria for determining which years to take? In Whitney's chart, Mars is in detriment and peregrine, yet angular. We got to take the middle years to start. In this chart, Jupiter is angular and in his own term. Do we get to take the major years?

For the adding and subtracting of years based on aspects, Mars' square to Libra is out of orb for Jupiter, so would not be considered? Saturn makes no aspect as previously shown, and neither does Venus. Mercury is conjunct, but I don't know if it's considered benenfic or malefic in this chart. He's above the ASC but below the Sun in a day chart. Would he be considered? I am also guessing that we don't look at the luminaries for adding and subtracting?
 

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
So ASC is Hyleg, and Jupiter is Alcocoden. What are the criteria for determining which years to take? In Whitney's chart, Mars is in detriment and peregrine, yet angular. We got to take the middle years to start. In this chart, Jupiter is angular and in his own term. Do we get to take the major years?
Yes I would take Jupiter's major years because it is angular (on AC almost in exact degree) and in its own terms.
I don't know about Jupiter being Under the Sun's Beams.

For the adding and subtracting of years based on aspects, Mars' square to Libra is out of orb for Jupiter, so would not be considered? Saturn makes no aspect as previously shown, and neither does Venus. Mercury is conjunct, but I don't know if it's considered benenfic or malefic in this chart. He's above the ASC but below the Sun in a day chart. Would he be considered? I am also guessing that we don't look at the luminaries for adding and subtracting?
Even if they add or subtract, they are here out of orb.
So, in my opinion there is no adding nor subtraction.
 

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
Hyleg and Alcocoden according to Bonnati (Cary Grant's chart)

Ok, so lets now analyze certain charts using only Bonnati's method for calculating the H & A.
I would take the chart of Cary Grant, the famous actor.
I don't know the year he died, I can see that he is born 1904 and assume that he is death by now.
I will try to give my opinion on his H & A., will leave you to give your judgments and in the end we will see the year of his death on Wikipedia.

Here's Bonatti's method for calculating the Hyleg:

Bonatti uses Sun, Moon, PoF, Asc and SAN as potential hylegs.

General Rule: the hyleg must be aspected by at least one of its rulers

In a day chart, the potential hyleg is
1. Sun if in 1st, 11th or 10th
2. Sun in 7th, 8th, or 9th if it is in a masculine sign
3. Moon if in an angle or succedent house and in a feminine sign
4. Part of Fortune if chart is preventional and it is in a hylegical place or conjunct the
Asc.
5. Asc if chart is conjunctional and if it is aspected by any of it’s rulers or the Moon
6. SAN

By night, you start with the Moon instead of the Sun; same rules apply.

Bonatti’s comments on looking for the hyleg:
1. Ptolemy rejected an 8th house hyleg
2. Dorotheus rejected an 8th or 7th house Sun as hyleg unless it was in a
masculine sign in a day chart; he allowed it as hyleg in a nocturnal chart if it was in the 1st or 2nd house in a feminine sign
3. Moon angular or succedent is a fit hyleg regardless of sign although it is better if it is in a feminine sign in a woman’s chart or a masculine sign in a man’s chart
4. Dorotheus rejected a 9th House Moon as hyleg; Ptolemy accepted her if she was in the 9th in a feminine sign
5. SAN acceptable if the Sun, Moon, Asc ruler or any of the benefics are angular or
succedent and aspect the SAN.
(Taken from the yahoo group Angelicus Merlin).

Bonatti on finding the Alcocoden:

Bonatti

Examine the dispositors of the Hyleg to see which one is in aspect to the Hyleg. If more than one is in aspect, take the one which “is closer to degree by aspect or by conjunction.
If they all “aspect equally” then
a) take the one which has the most dignities in the place of the Hyleg, or, if they
have equal dignities,
b) take the one which is angular or succedent, or, if they are all angular or
succedent,
c) take the one closest to its cusp, or, if they are still equal,
d) take the one who is strongest in its own place i.e. having the most essential
dignity in its own place, or, if they are still equal
e) take the one closest to the Sun without being combust
If any planet is 3º before or 5º after either the Asc or MC, “make him a participator with
the Hyleg” whether or not he has dignity there (in the place of the Hyleg?) and if he does
have dignity there he will be stronger than another planet not with the Asc or MC. If the
planet does not have dignity, his participation will be weaker.
If the Alcochoden is in the Asc or 10th, in Haym, in his own dignities gives his major
years.
If succedent, oriental (esp. in the 11th), in any of his own dignities and free from
impediments, gives his middle years.
If cadent under the same conditions, he gives his minor years but if impeded by being
retro or in his detriment or fall, or peregrine, or besieged by malefics, he will give his
minor years as months and minor months as weeks but if he also combust, he will give
his minor years and months as hours or, at the most, days.
If a benefic, strong, fortunate and received, aspects by conjunction, sextile or trine it
will add its own minor years plus its middle years as months. If he does not receive the
Alcochoden, or the aspect is a square or opposition20, he will give his minor years plus
the major years as days. But if the fortune is impeded it will only add its minor years as
months.

If the aspecting planet is a malefic conjunct, square or opposed to the Alcochoden,
subtract the malefics minor years. But, if the malefic is in his own dignities, he will only
subtract 1/3 of his minor years.
Mercury adds his minor years if he is with fortunes; subtracts them if he is with malefics.
Bonatti subtracts ¼ of the Alcochoden’s years if it is within 12º of the SN and says his
experience does not support the addition of ¼ years if it is within 12º of the NN.


Lets now examine the Cary Grant's chart with all these rules in mind:
cary grant.jpg

It is a night chart (Sun bellow the horizon). Moon in 3rd in masculine sign (Aquarius).
Sun is also in cadent 3rd house, so also not acceptable.
The Chart is Conjunctional (New Moon prior the birth) so we look at the Ascendant for potential Hyleg.
Ascendant is at 28 Libra. (Bonatti uses Ptolomeic terms and triplicities so we will follow him here).
Domicile ruler Venus = 5 points (no aspect)
Exaltation ruler Saturn = 4 points (no aspect)
Triplicity ruler Mercury = 3 points (aspect with square)
Term ruler Mars = 2 points (aspect with partile trine)
Face ruler Jupiter = 1 point (no aspect)
Now we need to choose between Mercury and Mars.

Bonatti says:
Examine the dispositors of the Hyleg to see which one is in aspect to the Hyleg. If more
than one is in aspect, take the one which “is closer to degree by aspect or by conjunction

So we will take Mars because it is partile trine.

So we have Ascendant as Hyleg and Mars as Alcocoden.

Mars as Alcocoden has the following years:
Minor years: 15
Middle years: 40.5
Major years: 66

Mars in its own terms in angular house it will give its major years: 66.

Mars is alone there, does not have an aspect nor from benefic nor from malefic. So it will give its years (66) without adding or subtraction.
--------
Ok, I've seen his year of death after I've calculated this and I can see that I'm wrong. But will not tell the year of death yet, in order to leave you to try to give your own judgment. :)
 

tsmall

Premium Member
I have a question about the Moon in this chart. Yes, it is in cadent house, but it is in angular sign (4th from the ASC)

3. Moon angular or succedent is a fit hyleg regardless of sign although it is better if it is in a feminine sign in a woman’s chart or a masculine sign in a man’s chart

Would it be possible to try with Moon as Hyleg?
 

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
I have a question about the Moon in this chart. Yes, it is in cadent house, but it is in angular sign (4th from the ASC)



Would it be possible to try with Moon as Hyleg?

Yes, I thought of that. Though its not in angular sign but in succedent (Libra angular, scorpio succedent, sag cadent, capricorn angular, aquarius succedent).
I've discarded the Moon because some authors says that if the Moon is under the Sun Beams (17 degrees orb) then it can not be Hyleg. But it seems out that Bonatti does not use that rule so we can follow him here and try with the Moon being Hyleg.
Lets try.

Moon at 0 degrees Aquarius in 4th (near the 4th house cusp) and succedent by sign.
Saturn = 5 points
no exaltation here
Mercury = 3 points
Saturn = 2
Venus = 1

Saturn is the Almuten of the Moon. Lets see if he had an aspect to the Moon.
He is making 9 degrees conjunction with the Moon.
Lets see the Moiety of these two.
Moons orb is 12 degrees, Saturn's 10 = 22 degrees
Half of 22 is 11, so the moiety of this aspect between these two is 11 degrees.
Saturn is making a conjunction to the Moon. So, he is Moon's Almuten and Alcocoden as well.
Moon Hyleg, Saturn Alcocoden.

Saturn in domicile and angular it would give its major years (57).
It receives Sextile from Venus (benefic) in succedent house with no dignity in that place.
So we will add her minor years (8) and middle as months (45)
57 years + 8 years + 45 months (3 years and 9 months) = 68 years and 9 months.

We are still far away from the actual death of Cary Grant.

Robert Zoller says: "if you are one year around the Alcocoden's given years, you have found the Alcocoden" (Paraphrase).
 

tsmall

Premium Member
Well, I am glad to see that at least my thought process was right, as my notes matched your post exactly. I even have my book open to see if the Saturn Moon conjunction is within a valid orb. I have to admit that after I made my calculations I peeked. :whistling: 68 years 9 months is not even close.

Robert Zoller says: "if you are one year around the Alcocoden's given years, you have found the Alcocoden" (Paraphrase).

Is it possible to work backwards?
 

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
Well, I am glad to see that at least my thought process was right, as my notes matched your post exactly. I even have my book open to see if the Saturn Moon conjunction is within a valid orb. I have to admit that after I made my calculations I peeked. :whistling: 68 years 9 months is not even close.



Is it possible to work backwards?

I don't understand the question :)
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
We are still far away from the actual death of Cary Grant.

Robert Zoller says: "if you are one year around the Alcocoden's given years, you have found the Alcocoden" (Paraphrase)
.
1904? How accurate is the data for Cary Grant's natal chart? If the Ascendant is inaccurate then how can the "Vital Life Force" of the native be accurately assessed? Time of occurrence of actual death is useful in rectifying the natal ascendant:smile:
 

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
1904? How accurate is the data for Cary Grant's natal chart? If the Ascendant is inaccurate then how can the "Vital Life Force" of the native be accurately assessed? Time of occurrence of actual death is useful in rectifying the natal ascendant:smile:

Yes, I agree. If we do not find the Alcocoden we can try to rectify the chart, but first will try the same method with other person's charts, maybe Bonatti's method does not give results after all and we can try the method of Abu'Ali next.
Yes, the actual time of birth in those times was not so precise as today, I think..
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Yes, I agree. If we do not find the Alcocoden we can try to rectify the chart, but first will try the same method with other person's charts, maybe Bonatti's method does not give results after all and we can try the method of Abu'Ali next.
Yes, the actual time of birth in those times was not so precise as today, I think
..
OK Omnisphericus - Abu'Ali is next candidate ! :smile:
 

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
I think if we allow the whole sign aspect by Venus to the first option Alcocoden Mars, then we would have 11 years and 9 months plus to the Mars's 66. But this is still off with around 5 years, Cary Grant lived around 82 years and 10 months, and we have the number of 77 and 9 months.
He died out from a heart-attack.
But 5 years is not big difference. As we said in our earlier conversation, the modern day medicine and the way we live in the modern world is distinguished from the medieval. So it seems out that C.G lived a few years more than his Alcocoden shows.

I will look now for some other celebrity to continue our exercising but in meanwhile if someone have something to add to the chart examination of C.G. its free to add.
 

tsmall

Premium Member
I don't understand the question :)

I apologize. What I meant was based on the Robert Zoller quote, Venus must be Alcocoden. She gives 82 years. So I though perhaps by assuming Venus, we could then look for candidates for the Hyleg.

The Cary Grant chart has a B rating. I think JUPITERASC is correct about the birth time being off. Looking at the aspects, Venus has to be Alcocoden. She gives 82 years, and the aspects mean no adding or subtracting. Taking any other planet, based on the aspects, doesn't get us close to the proper number of years. Moving the birth time back by one hour changes the ASC to 17* Libra, sextile Venus. So ASC as Hyleg, and Venus as Alcocoden?

Omnisphericus, what if we look at AA rated charts, just so we can be sure we are working with correct birth times?
 

DreamingTheSeas

Well-known member
This is Princess Diana's chart. In whole house her Asc is the Hyleg (i think). Alcocoden is Jupiter ( i think again). Any thoughts?
 

Attachments

  • astro_2gw_23_diana_princess_hw.77619.23355.jpg
    astro_2gw_23_diana_princess_hw.77619.23355.jpg
    83.2 KB · Views: 22

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
I apologize. What I meant was based on the Robert Zoller quote, Venus must be Alcocoden. She gives 82 years. So I though perhaps by assuming Venus, we could then look for candidates for the Hyleg.

The Cary Grant chart has a B rating. I think JUPITERASC is correct about the birth time being off. Looking at the aspects, Venus has to be Alcocoden. She gives 82 years, and the aspects mean no adding or subtracting. Taking any other planet, based on the aspects, doesn't get us close to the proper number of years. Moving the birth time back by one hour changes the ASC to 17* Libra, sextile Venus. So ASC as Hyleg, and Venus as Alcocoden?

Omnisphericus, what if we look at AA rated charts, just so we can be sure we are working with correct birth times?

tsmall, I think you are right! Your rectification with Venus aspecting the Asc is great! Yes we should look at the AA charts.
I wanted to post the chart of Janis Joplin but lets first see Lady Diana's chart.
 
Top