How to explain differences in twins born only 1 minute apart?

I just had lunch with one of my best friends - a twin. We were talking and it came up to me that her sister and her have always been completely different. Since we were little kids. Same exact Natal chart, same environment and always so different? One is an extrovert, the other is an introvert. One was held back in pre-k for some emotional issues the other is completely emotionally stable. One is very Aries - they are both Aries - but the other is more like a Pisces/Cancer. They are both amazing human beings, but completely different. They have been different since birth. Distinctly. I guess the only answer would be their 8 months on the womb but still... it’s hard to explain how they view life and feel life in such different ways. They do not look alike at all - they are fraternal twins. One is blonde and blue eyes, the other is dark haired and dark eyes. I can understand the physical difference but the personalities, emotions, way they deal with people... it just seems weird to me that they would be so different having the exact same chart and environment. Like I said, the only argument that can be made here is how the two were placed in their mother’s womb... still seems a little strange.
 

david starling

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I just had lunch with one of my best friends - a twin. We were talking and it came up to me that her sister and her have always been completely different. Since we were little kids. Same exact Natal chart, same environment and always so different? One is an extrovert, the other is an introvert. One was held back in pre-k for some emotional issues the other is completely emotionally stable. One is very Aries - they are both Aries - but the other is more like a Pisces/Cancer. They are both amazing human beings, but completely different. They have been different since birth. Distinctly. I guess the only answer would be their 8 months on the womb but still... it’s hard to explain how they view life and feel life in such different ways. They do not look alike at all - they are fraternal twins. One is blonde and blue eyes, the other is dark haired and dark eyes. I can understand the physical difference but the personalities, emotions, way they deal with people... it just seems weird to me that they would be so different having the exact same chart and environment. Like I said, the only argument that can be made here is how the two were placed in their mother’s womb... still seems a little strange.

Which twin was born 1st? :unsure:
 

bsab

Banned
I just had lunch with one of my best friends - a twin. We were talking and it came up to me that her sister and her have always been completely different. Since we were little kids. Same exact Natal chart, same environment and always so different? One is an extrovert, the other is an introvert. One was held back in pre-k for some emotional issues the other is completely emotionally stable. One is very Aries - they are both Aries - but the other is more like a Pisces/Cancer. They are both amazing human beings, but completely different. They have been different since birth. Distinctly. I guess the only answer would be their 8 months on the womb but still... it’s hard to explain how they view life and feel life in such different ways. They do not look alike at all - they are fraternal twins. One is blonde and blue eyes, the other is dark haired and dark eyes. I can understand the physical difference but the personalities, emotions, way they deal with people... it just seems weird to me that they would be so different having the exact same chart and environment. Like I said, the only argument that can be made here is how the two were placed in their mother’s womb... still seems a little strange.

Fraternal twins are different. Astrology to me works based on quantum vibrations and we already have seen studies in which birth month has been pinpointed to gene expression, that means, time of birth turns on or off genes ( same genes based on time). I’m these twins, they have different genes to begin with. What would be interesting to see is in identical twins who are mostly the same ( not totally). I wonder about that. Maybe degrees matter in their case.
 

unique_astrology

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JUPITERASC

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I just had lunch with one of my best friends - a twin. We were talking and it came up to me that her sister and her have always been completely different. Since we were little kids. Same exact Natal chart, same environment and always so different? One is an extrovert, the other is an introvert. One was held back in pre-k for some emotional issues the other is completely emotionally stable. One is very Aries - they are both Aries - but the other is more like a Pisces/Cancer. They are both amazing human beings, but completely different. They have been different since birth. Distinctly. I guess the only answer would be their 8 months on the womb but still... it’s hard to explain how they view life and feel life in such different ways. They do not look alike at all - they are fraternal twins. One is blonde and blue eyes, the other is dark haired and dark eyes. I can understand the physical difference but the personalities, emotions, way they deal with people... it just seems weird to me that they would be so different having the exact same chart and environment. Like I said, the only argument that can be made here is how the two were placed in their mother’s womb... still seems a little strange.

TWINS detailed discussion at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=550235#post550235

Here are the charts of twins born about a minute apart
with the same ascending degree.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Birney,_Peter
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Birney,_Mollie
HOWEVER
as dr. farr explains:

Right: even down to 1 minute,

there will be subtle chart differences

found by application of the various techniques I mentioned:

UNDER 1 minute, then recourse to Vedic D120 analysis,
or to swara considerations, would have to be done :smile:
Ok, so I'd expect predictive techniques to show the same events at the same time
in the same order.
dr. farr explains how such an assumption would be unwarranted :smile:
However, such an assumption would be unwarranted:
eg,
1) the ascendant Pauline dodek would be 26 minutes, different, in the twins charts referenced above, giving 2 +degrees Aries for one (monomoiria ruler = Venus) and 3 degrees Aries for the other (monomoiria ruler = Mercury)

2) in case of the SAME ascending degree in twins' birthcharts, one would look at the monomoiria ruler of the DODEK PLACE of the ascending degrees (rather than when there is a difference of 1 or more degrees of the ascending degrees, in which case the monomoiria ruler of the ascending degrees, rather than that of the DODEK, would be used, as I did in the example of Courtcam01, in an earlier posting)

3) same with the use of the MC, relative to its monomoiria degree ruler: in the reference charts the MC Pauline dodek would be different, in the 2 charts, so the MC monomoiria rulers of the MC would be different for each of the twins.

(while the above methods are from the Traditional Western stream, I will just mention here in passing that Vedic astrology would have no problem in differentiating charts even to less than 1 minute seperation in time, using D120 charts, and amsa sub-sub-sub time divisions)

Making extensive use of the finer subdivisions
(duodenaries, terms, monomoiria)
and extensive use of dodekatemorion ramifications,
will indicate differences, often of a significant nature
(much as jyotish uses higher varga charts, such as the D60 and D120, and amsa's, for such purposes)
-and this is without having recourse to the more speculative techniques
such as pre-natal epoch
(or the more esoteric field in Vedic of swara shastra)

and here's an example of twins charts
that are separated by just 2 minutes of time
A very brief example of the application of one of the principles I mentioned, above, is from the birth charts of AW member Courtcam01 and her sister, seperated by a just 2 minutes of time:
-ascending degree for our AW member = 23Aries50
-for her sister = 24Aries41
Now-looking at ascending-degree ruler (monomoiria dispositor of the ascending degree), our AW member has Venus as ascending degree ruler and her sister has Mercury: note that, while both planets are in signs of their detriment in the birth charts, our AW member ascending degree ruler, Venus, is retrograde and, while conjunct Jupiter, this Venus/Jupiter conjunction is in opposition to Saturn (a planet characterized by its delaying qualities) On the other hand, her sister's ascending degree ruler, Mercury, suffers no such affliction (I shall not discuss its conjunction with Neptune here, since this is not allowed in the Traditional forum)
...so we see in this brief example of the application of just one of the special considerations for closely time/place connected charts I mentioned in my previous post, how subtle but significant potential differences can be brought out even when the birth time difference is a mere 2 minutes.
 

JUPITERASC

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petosiris
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Re: Hellenistic delineations
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall
I am not sure if this is the correct place to post this question (so if it needs to be moved?)

With all the current interest in Hellenistic methods, how exactly does one go about delineating a chart using Hellenistic astrology?


jvxsJCu.png


(Sidereal, Topocentric with dodecatemoria, nonagesimal MC)

Investigating the 71st year (70 years) of Donald Trump, variety of methods

I. Seven Ages of Man according to Ptolemy
Saturn - Late Old Age - Death
Jupiter - Early Old Age - 67
Mars - Late Adulthood - 55
Sun - Early Adulthood - 40
Venus - Youth - 21
Mercury - Childhood - 13
Moon - Infancy - 3

Donald Trump is the oldest president elected in US history. Saturn is of the sect, above the horizon, in the XI image of the Good Daimon, in its triplicity and bound and ruled by Mercury, who is in its domicile, Venus bound, triplicity and degree. Thus the method of Ptolemy gives good results for this nativity (which is more of an argument for taking into account age regardless).

Circumambulation of the Predominator according to the Old Astrologers
The Sun is Predominator. In the 71st year it is distributing to Saturn (which is operative and inclining towards beneficence) and is joining the hexagon ray of Jupiter. Thus it also gives good results for this nativity.

II. Winds according to the Old Astrologers
This nativity is wealth-producing and imperious, with power over life and death for the Sun, the Moon, the Preceding New Moon, Fortune, Daimon and Foundation are all angular, and furthermore the ruler of the Moon is angular and with Regulus which is rising, while the trigon rulers of the Lightbringer are angular after the 38th year, for that is the rising time of inoperative Venus, which is also trigon ruler of the II - wealth, IV - property, the Moon, X - rank and VIII - property.

He was wealthy from the beginning because of his father (Sun to Saturn) - IV, Virgo, Mercury and the Sun trine Jupiter. He inherited the property business of his father - X from Virgo, and right around the time of the 38th year, he completed the construction of the Trump Tower. In the following years he amassed wealth, signified by the rulers of II and VIII and the overall eminence and by the times.

He has 2 angular triplicity rulers, thus it also gives good results for this nativity.

III. 129 Years according to the Exaltation Method of Balbilus, the Days of the Moon and the Times of the Images
The Predominator is the main Releaser, as in the circumambulation. Every star allots its recurrence years. But if the stars should not be upon the degrees of their exaltations, it will be necessary to substract as many days as there are years, by image, as many months. Thus the Sun here allots 19 years - 19 months, Mercury allots 20 years - 60 months, Saturn allots 30 years - 120 months, Mars allots 15 years - 75 months and Jupiter - 12 years - 24 months. One can further divide each time into 129 parts as many times as necessary.
17.4166667 years - Sun
15 years - Mercury
20 years - Saturn
8.75 years - Mars
10 years - Jupiter
----------------------
71st - Jupiter and Mars - harmonious, like-ascending with reception, these two stars together grant power over life and death, operative and benefic period, thus it also gives good results for this nativity.

To find the third, seventh and fortieth day of the Moon, examine the II, IV and VII from the Moon. Now the fortieth day rules the later part of life, here in Taurus, exaltation, hexagon Venus and trine Jupiter. It is however square Mars, although inferior. Thus it gives mediocre results.

The VI, VII and VIII signify the time around old age. Thus it also gives mediocre results, for although the rulers are well placed and operative, the seventh is opposed by Mars, the malefic contrary to the sect (although ruled by good rulers, it is also contrary to horizon, gender, season and within two images of its depression - it is however much more productive than Venus, which is the worst star in the nativity).

IV. Recurrence Years and Rising Times, 9 years according to Zoroaster and Nechepso, 28 years according to Critodemus, Operative Years according to Vettius Valens

Only the sum of Gemini and Scorpio are operative. But those signs are unconfigured except through like-ascension, so basically nothing in particular is shown by this technique. Valens advises to divide each rising time in thirds or half and sum up them instead. I will skip those.

Find the Ruler of the Moon and allot 9 years for every sign ruler upwards. Mars rules 9 years, then Jupiter, then Saturn. Mercury rules until 72, thus this method provides good results.

According to Critodemus, find the ruler of the degree of the Moon and count upwards. The first degree is assigned to the domicile ruler, then the next 29 degrees (monomoiria) in the seven-zone, also called descending Chaldean order. Every star, beginning from the ruler of the Moon, allots this many years:
Saturn - 7
Jupiter - 6
Mars - 5
Sun - 4
Venus - 3
Mercury - 2
Moon - 1

After one cycle of 28 years is completed, we start from the star after the ruler. In this nativity we begin from Saturn, at the 57th year from Venus, thus Jupiter rules the 71st year. This method also gives good results for this nativity.

The 71st year is also not associated with any interval, however several numerical methods are as follows (using ordinal numbers)
Saturn is operative every four years for 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 = 30
Jupiter is operative every three years for 3 + 4 + 5 = 12
Mars is operative every four years for 4 + 5 + 6 = 15
Sun is operative every nine years for 9 + 10 = 19
Venus is operative every eight years for 8 = 8
Mercury is operative every two years for 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 = 20
Moon is operative every three years for 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 = 25

Thus:
Saturn - every 4, 30, 57
Jupiter - every 3, 12, 79
Mars - every 4, 15, 66
Sun - every 9, 19, 120
Venus - every 8, 82
Mercury - every 2, 20, 76
Moon - every 3, 25, 108

V. Profections
We investigate the eleventh profection cycle. He became exalted and king of kings in the 71st year, because the Sun and the Moon transmit to Jupiter, while the Hour-Marker transmits to Mercury and Saturn, the most well placed stars in the nativity. Venus also transmits to the Sun, Fortune, Daimon and MC to Jupiter, only the Mars transmission to Gemini is malefic.
Thus, this also provides good results.

According to the King (for monthly profection), count the distance from the Sun at the time to the Moon at the nativity and the same distance from the Hour-Marker. Virgo is the operative month with Mercury as ruler, thus it provides good results for this nativity.

VI. Revolutions - The solar revolution is not as good as expected - only Mars at an angle, Lot with Saturn. In the lunar revolution preceding the election, the angles are well and Jupiter is rising, with the Sun and Mercury in the post-ascension, which signifies the first days of the month. Thus they give ok results.

VII. Transits - Saturn is transiting the Moon and the angles along with Mercury, Jupiter and Venus are operative, and the latter is sending trine ray to the Ascendant. Thus they give ok results.

It would be interesting to see how the tropical chart fares with these methods.
Last edited by petosiris; 06-13-2018 at 12:09 AM. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to petosiris For This Useful Post: JUPITERASC (06-12-2018), sea_of_qi (06-13-2018)
06-12-2018, 06:46 PM

Today, 09:14 PM
petosiris
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Re: Hellenistic delineations
Quote:
''In every case it is necessary to take the distance from the sun’s degree-position to the moon’s in the order of the signs using the rising times<?>, and to mark the resulting number of degrees as the solar gnomon. Next consult the table of rising times under the klima of the nativity and see what fraction is entered at the sun’s degree-position. (This is for day births; for night births, look at the point in opposition to the sun.) Multiply this by 12; then multiply the result by the hour of the day at the delivery. If the result exceeds 360°, subtract 360° and see if the remainder corresponds to the previously determined gnomon. If it does, the hour which was reported will be accurate and should be used. If, however, the remainder greatly exceeds the solar gnomon, subtract from the <reported> Ascendant an amount equal to the excess. (Do this by figuring what fraction the excess is of the <hourly> magnitude, and subtract that.) If the solar gnomon is greater, add to the <reported> Ascendant an amount corresponding to the excess. Then determine the fraction <of the hour> and enter the table of rising times. Continue by calculating the full hours and the fraction. Add the years and note at what degree of the zodiac the enklima falls. Consider that point to be the real Ascendant. Thrasyllus used this method, made a scientific beginning, and fashioned a forecast of the end.'' - Valens, translated by Riley - http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
I am going to use Trump's chart to illustrate this somewhat complex method.

1) We determine the ascensional degrees from the Sun to the Moon. We mark 221.5 as the solar gnomon.
2) We determine the ascensional degrees the Sun itself has accumulated (for night - the degree opposite). This is about 26.
3) We multiply 26 by 12 and again by the hour of the nativity, to the minute. He is born at the 5th hour, which lasts from 10:25 until 11:39.
4) 26 x 12 x 5.3919* - 4 x 360 = 242.2728, which exceeds the solar gnomon, thus we need to subtract some 5 minutes from the birth time (26 x 12 x 5.3243 - 4 x 360 = 221.1816) to get the ''real'' Ascendant according to Thrasyllus. Perhaps more precise work with the hours and the ascensional degrees of the Sun would make it 3-5 minutes away.

*If fraction of the hour meant not taking the ordinal number, it would be about 4.3919. But in that case the birth time would have to be rectified by 15 minutes. In any case, I would group this rectification method along with the conceptional chart as ''rectifications that have to be'' - because they do not allow for certain birth times.
**There are certain charts from the Hellenistic period that say that a planet is at 30 degrees and certain minutes - for example 30° 45''. This is what makes it ambiguous in this case as well. Perhaps the ''full hours and the fraction'' mean that it takes the full hours and the fraction, as I did, but I am not sure.
Last edited by petosiris; Today at 09:36 PM.


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Today, 10:21 PM
petosiris
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Re: Hellenistic delineations
Nevermind, he would use 4.3919 - ''So, if hour 4 is given, we consider this as 3 hours plus a fraction—not everyone can be born on the stroke of the hour. So, if hour 4 is given, we consider this as 3 hours plus a fraction—not everyone can be born on the stroke of the hour.'' - http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf He proceeds to give his method for timing twins.



 

petosiris

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Jupiter, you realize that all these methods (including the rectification) would be identical for twins, which is exactly the op's problem.
 

petosiris

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The problem is that people assume that the nativity is the baby drawing a breath of dry and moist stuff (or energy nowadays). The real nativity is a beginning/katarche, it is simply an event chart, other omens have to be taken at the time.

Even Ptolemy (dry and moist) was of the opinion that other things have to be taken into account.
 
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JUPITERASC

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I assume that such rectification methods would work for the firstborn.
In this case first born was born only one minute previously
hence surgical intervention via Caesarian was probable
which would have been rare in Hellenistic times


The nativities that follow would have to be rectified through other means (comparing events)

- perhaps the good ol' ''works better for me''.
the school of thought ''it works better for me so must be correct'' is a dubious one :smile:
in this case the nativity that followed
was just one minute later
Epoch chart would be interesting to study

The problem is that people assume that the nativity is the baby drawing a breath of dry and moist stuff

(or energy nowadays).

The real nativity is a beginning/katarche, it is simply an event chart
other omens have to be taken at the time.
also people are unwilling to study for themselves
 

petosiris

Banned
In this case first born was born only one minute previously
hence surgical intervention via Caesarian was probable
which would have been rare in Hellenistic times

Yes, a birth within 15 minutes was unlikely, you can see that is about the time Valens would allow with his supposed astrological technique for timing those. A Caesarian meant death, I think that is where it comes from - the king/caesar would want to get his heir alive.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Yes, a birth within 15 minutes was unlikely, you can see that is about the time Valens would allow
with his supposed astrological technique for timing those.
A Caesarian meant death.
Quite so :smile:

I have read of cases where births of twins were hours apart
and
in extreme cases, even more than twenty four hours
so
fifteen minutes allowance by Valens seems reasonable
and

unfortunately even in todays "advanced medical world"
death when giving birth is not unknown
and not solely in so-called underdeveloped worlds
 

petosiris

Banned
Quite so :smile:

I have read of cases where births of twins were hours apart
and
in extreme cases, even more than twenty four hours
so
fifteen minutes allowance by Valens seems reasonable
and

unfortunately even in todays "advanced medical world"
death when giving birth is not unknown
and not solely in so-called underdeveloped worlds

I think the average difference nowadays is 10 minutes. But the example of the octuplets you gave are all within 5 minutes (caesarean).
 
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david starling

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We're not born into a vacuum. We have to fit into an already existing astral and familial pattern. First one out takes a slot that may not accommodate both twins, and the second-born then takes on an alternative role that may appear quite different from that of the first-born, even though their Chart configurations are nearly identical.
 

wan

Well-known member
If they are fraternal twins, then they have different genes, which could account for the differences you observe.
 

david starling

Well-known member
If they are fraternal twins, then they have different genes, which could account for the differences you observe.

Are there significant genetic factors in behavioral and personality types? I mean, appearance aside. I knew a pair of fraternal twins who were very much alike in behavior and personality, even though they weren't identical in appearance.
 
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