How Important Is The Accuracy & Reliability Of Birth-Times?

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
fwiw Sun sign astrology of the kind freely available in newspapers and magzines does not require a time of birth because it is based on reading the chart as if the Sun is on the Ascendant. Now if your natal Sun just so happens to be precisely conjunct your natal ascendant then IMO fwiw it is entirely possible that newspaper and/or magazine/tv/online general astrological pronouncements may well have some kind of relation to your own personal experiences BUT not everyone was born at sunrise!

For those who have no known birth time, it is possible to create a “Sun conjunct ascendant for the place of birth” natal chart and read that, however that is different from an accurate natal chart based on an officially noted time of birth.

IMO the general consensus is that natal charts are unique. Even the charts of twins are unique as evidenced by recent posts on this forum at the thread "Twins Natal Charts" http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50083

So, astrologers have 'rectification' techniques that are utilised to confirm the time of birth – because basically, what is required is a natal chart that responds to a variety of astrological techniques such as for example, transits/progressions/profections in a way that is clearly related to personal life experiences :smile:
 

gen6k

Well-known member
i havent researched this with any kind of data, but i think the resonance pattern might be diluted over time somewhere in the various historical and systematic changes.

well i calculated with dst and without dst, and some things were more accurate at some point.

the classic example is the changability of house systems and their virtuality on top of the concrete gradient system in order to subdivide certain segments.

this would be more of a morphic decay between the lines of the interaction of "birth-time parameter calculations with space, frame of reference, ideological system, etc"

it could be about trying to tap in to the multiplicity of layers to get to a bigger picture kind of thing.
 

waybread

Well-known member
If a correct birth time is unavailable, I think it's best to read the chart without houses. I see no point in using houses that could be wildly erroneous. This includes the "solar" chart. Unless someone was actually born with the sun in the first house, this could give a very false impression.

Planets in aspects and signs still convey a lot of information about the individual.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
i havent researched this with any kind of data, but i think the resonance pattern might be diluted over time somewhere in the various historical and systematic changes.

well i calculated with dst and without dst, and some things were more accurate at some point.

the classic example is the changability of house systems and their virtuality on top of the concrete gradient system in order to subdivide certain segments.

this would be more of a morphic decay between the lines of the interaction of "birth-time parameter calculations with space, frame of reference, ideological system, etc"

it could be about trying to tap in to the multiplicity of layers to get to a bigger picture kind of thing.
Astrological predictive methods are applied in relation to the Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC axis. It is not possible to apply these predictive methods without an accurate birth time being on record :smile:
 

waybread

Well-known member
Without a correct birth time, you can predict when progressed and transiting planets will aspect your natal plants' position; with the exception of the moon because it moves 12 degrees per day. With a default noon birth time, you still have to consider that the moon position could be off by 6 degrees either way.

Of course, you can't predict when a transiting or progressed planet will move into a new house or aspect the angles.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
THE FOLLOWING BRIEF 100 WORD EXTRACT IS SOURCED FROM http://cseligman.com/text/sky/moonmotion.htm

QUOTE:
“The Moon's orbit is an ellipse, centered on a point 12,000 miles from Earth's centre.

As the Moon approaches perigee, its angular speed among the stars will appear to increase by 12% of its average speed and as it approaches apogee, its angular speed among the stars will appear to decrease by 12% of its average speed. Since 12% of 13.2
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT]per day is 1.6[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT] per day, the daily motion of the Moon to the east can vary from as little as 11.6[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT] per day near apogee, to as much as 14.8[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT] per day, near perigee”

So, fwiw, IMO since the degree of the moon can vary by from between 11.6
º and 14.8º during the same day, THEN although one person may have a natal Moon at 10º of any particular sign, another person born on the exact same day may have a natal Moon at 24.8º
of any particular sign :smile:

As well as that, there is also the fact that the Moon changes signs approximately every two and a half days.


Let's consider the effect of the moon changing signs by examining the natal moons of two people born on the same day

(1) 30 July 2012 at three minutes after midnight

(2) and 30 July 2012 at three minutes before midnight.


Consulting my Tropical ephemeris I find that at midnight on 30 July 2012 the Moon's position is 25
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT] Tropical Sagittarius 30' 26"


However, I notice that the moon changes signs to Tropical Capricorn during the day and so by three minutes to midnight on 30 July 2012 the Moon is at 9º Tropical Capricorn 50'

Therefore, some people born on 30 July 2012 shall have a Jupiter-ruled Tropical Sagittarius Moon BUT some people born on 30 July 2012 shall have a Saturn-ruled Tropical Capricorn Moon.


Another important factor is that the Ascendant degree changes every four minutes. Given that there are twenty four hours in one day that's quite a few different possible Ascendants!


It is for these reasons that fwiw IMO the lack of an exact time of birth prevents accurate prediction.
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
Which is exactly my argument for the question as to why do so many people even consider what the so called 'Great Astrologers that were from as far back as recorded history is still in extant for up to a recently near present times of Age? Especially anything that has to do with the Asc., the Houses and the Astrological Parts?

Why would anyone...?
as consider any of it to be of much value at all, forget about how some, such as those that find themselves 'Welcome with out stretched arms" at the 'Skyscript' forum, by that pitbull of a watchdog, owner moderator they have, Debbie something or other, regard such product of contemptible methods of attempt at the accuracy of the time and accuracy of position in the sky, for the input of the data required... as something so sacrosanct, almost 'Holy', if I may be so irreverent to that which actually is by use of the word?
For as to any one of those so called 'Greats' to have had a possible accurate birth time of day for more than a handful of people, in their entire lifetimes, that they then did cast charts for and base any conclusions on, [not to mention whether or not they even had an accurate enough method of determining Zodiacal positions, or had a journal of past and upcoming ephemeral activity] ...any thing more than just a certain amount of due respect and mention for at least keeping the memory of [and what little accurate and untainted science it still possessed and those few hints at what little is still known of the science it used to be, it brought to us presently from ...] a now everything but a completely forgotten science alive?
 
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piercethevale

Well-known member
And I didn't even bring up what many of the members of this forum seem to act as if that, if they just ignore it long enough and pretend that, "If I don't acknowledge it, then it really doesn't exist, does it?"" ... That these Sabian Symbols change with the Asc. degree, apprx. every 4 mins.
If any of you have read more than a couple, make that even more than one post on the Chart Axis symbolism and that the Astrological Parts, the message daily from the Moons Nodes are the actual root of the entire days ephemeral activity to be understood as to for what overall meaning of the purpose for which can be found in their Sabian Symbol for that degree of the Zodiac that day, and gave an actual demonstration of using an actual person of any amount of public attention as to the knowledge of that persons existence at all and of whom something is known which I can and did so demonstrate this fact. That fact being that the Sabain Symbols are not only valid...they may be about the most valid and also complete means as to a tool for analysis, interpretation and rectification any of you've got at your disposal.
 
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spock

Well-known member
And I didn't even bring up what many of the members of this forum seem to act as if that, if they just ignore it long enough and pretend that, "If I don't acknowledge it, then it really doesn't exist, does it?"" ... That these Sabian Symbols change with the Asc. degree, apprx. every 4 mins.
If any of you have read more than a couple, make that even more than one post on the Chart Axis symbolism and that the Astrological Parts, the message daily from the Moons Nodes are the actual root of the entire days ephemeral activity to be understood as to for what overall meaning of the purpose for which can be found in their Sabian Symbol for that degree of the Zodiac that day, and gave an actual demonstration of using an actual person of any amount of public attention as to the knowledge of that persons existence at all and of whom something is known which I can and did so demonstrate this fact. That fact being that the Sabain Symbols are not only valid...they may be about the most valid and also complete means as to a tool for analysis, interpretation and rectification any of you've got at your disposal.
Not really.
 

Moog

Well-known member
fwiw Sun sign astrology of the kind freely available in newspapers and magzines does not require a time of birth because it is based on reading the chart as if the Sun is on the Ascendant. Now if your natal Sun just so happens to be precisely conjunct your natal ascendant then IMO fwiw it is entirely possible that newspaper and/or magazine/tv/online general astrological pronouncements may well have some kind of relation to your own personal experiences BUT not everyone was born at sunrise!

I'd be fascinated to meet someone for whom they could just read the papers and get useful astrological predictions.

So, astrologers have 'rectification' techniques that are utilised to confirm the time of birth – because basically, what is required is a natal chart that responds to a variety of astrological techniques such as for example, transits/progressions/profections in a way that is clearly related to personal life experiences :smile:

It really depends what you want to do; if you want to do super duper detailed predictive work, then you will need a well rectified chart, to minutes.

It seems mainly the jyotishis and western traddies who are more interested in doing things like that.
 

Rebel Uranian

Well-known member
@JUP - Most newspapers just make up their Sun sign columns. There's so much inane cold reading involved you could have several fridges of books. I'm not just saying that because that's what I've inferred, I'm saying that because that's what some newspapers have openly said. They mostly use astro for mindless entertainment, and inaccuracy does not nullify that.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I'd be fascinated to meet someone for whom they could just read the papers and get useful astrological predictions
I agree - Astrologers would soon be out of business if all that's necessary is to read newspaper horoscopes for useful prediction that magically applies to each individual reading that column
It really depends what you want to do; if you want to do super duper detailed predictive work, then you will need a well rectified chart, to minutes.

It seems mainly the jyotishis and western traddies who are more interested in doing things like that
.
Revisiting an old thread and adding a link to a thread with Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51626&highlight=rectification just noticed that transiting Mercury is ending retrograde phase and stationing Direct in a day or so :smile:
 
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