Houses significators for things. sane and rational? or sup'rstitious & myth?

Bunraku

Well-known member
Th're seemeth to bee an unspoken belief in astrology that subtly hints to the idea that thee houses showeth a certain parteth of life. Or couldst we det'rmine the subject matter inquired upon by simply using the planets and their num'rous states and conditions? h're we can examineth the sooth of this practiceth
 

Bunraku

Well-known member
To clarify the subject, if we inquire about the native's father, then do we use the Sun and the Sun alone, and could we use it alone?
Or could and should we dare look into the 4th house?
 

katydid

Staff member
The use of houses is very sound. I think to look at the Father we look at the native's Sun and Saturn. And we look to the 4th and 10th axis, as the parents and the family, upbringing and reputation.
 

petosiris

Banned
Th're seemeth to bee an unspoken belief in astrology that subtly hints to the idea that thee houses showeth a certain parteth of life. Or couldst we det'rmine the subject matter inquired upon by simply using the planets and their num'rous states and conditions? h're we can examineth the sooth of this practiceth

Are ye writein in Lillyan?
 

waybread

Staff member
Looking at houses and their thematic rulerships is really standard, going back to Hellenistic astrology. A good book on how traditional astrologers interpret/ed houses is Deborah Houlding, Houses: Temples of the Sky. (She is the owner of Skyscript, a major traditional astrology web site.)

One traditional view of parents is that the sun rules the father in a day birth, but Saturn rules the father in a night birth. The moon rules the mother in a night birth, but Venus rules the mother in a day birth. Then traditionally the 4th house rules the father; and the 10th rules the mother (as the wife--7th house from the 4th) of one's father.)

The connection with the 4th house and "home" here is that historically one's patrimony was determined through the male line.
 

Humanitarian

Well-known member
Sane and rational things: Earth houses (2nd, 6th and 10th houses, especially the 2 former).
Mythical and superstitious things: Water houses (4th, 8th and 12th, especially the 2 latter).
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Sane and rational things: Earth houses (2nd, 6th and 10th houses, especially the 2 former).
Mythical and superstitious things: Water houses (4th, 8th and 12th, especially the 2 latter).
provide a traditional source - this is our traditional board :)
- created so that traditional astrologers can discuss traditional astrology with each other

without having to justify it to non-traditionalists
or be interrupted by people disagreeing with traditional perspectives
"...
Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional & modernistic
ideas

should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.."


.
 

socrates

Well-known member
Angulr houses are related to here and now,our environment,country etc
I have jupiter on the MC but in the 9th sign. So,is that good for life abroad,or in my native country? You cant have a planet cadent and angular at the same time
 

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DC80

Well-known member
To clarify the subject, if we inquire about the native's father, then do we use the Sun and the Sun alone, and could we use it alone?

That's based on chart sect.

In a diurnal chart Sun = Father and Venus = Mother
In a nocturnal chart Saturn = Father and Moon = Mother

For those reasons, the Lot of the Father is:
Diurnal: ASC + Sun - Saturn
Nocturnal ASC + Saturn - Sun

Lot of the Mother:
Diurnal: ASC + Venus - Moon
Nocturnal: ASC + Moon - Venus

The reason we reverse the formula based on sect is because the significators change.

When Saturn is under Sun's beams you cannot use Saturn. You substitute Jupiter for Saturn.

Or could and should we dare look into the 4th house?

Why would you do that?

That Greek word is mistranslated. It's actually "ancestry" not "family."

Yes, there are methods to determine if one is of mixed "race." Cast aside your anachronisms because "race" to them is what we call ethic groups or tribes. They didn't have any hang-ups about mixing it up. In fact, the only group on Earth that had prohibitions against marrying outside your ethnic group was the Jews and I guess that was to maintain the pure essence of their precious bodily fluids.

Your ancestry was important because in some instances you might be able to argue that you're a citizen or some special class or determine if you were adopted.

Cast aside your anachronisms. There's no birth certificates or adoption records or adoption agencies. If you want to adopt, you just go out in the streets, snatch up a child and take them home with you. That's what everyone did for several 1,000 years. Abortions had been performed for 1,000's of years. Cast aside your anachronisms. There are no medical schools. It was a doctor-apprentice thing. Doctors were few and far between, not all doctors knew how to perform abortions and just because a doctor happens to know it doesn't logically follow that you should use that doctor especially if you wanted to survive and it cost money.

That's why the older texts have sections on exposed infants and getting eaten by wild animals. Cast aside your anachronisms. If women couldn't find anyone to take the child they'd go out the city gates at night and leave the child in the graveyard. Sometimes desperate women hid in the woods by the graveyard waiting for women to abandon their infants there. Cast aside your anachronisms. Earth is sparsely populated. There are very large packs of bears, wolves and dogs running around. Dogs were not pets. They were used for war, patrolling, or guarding something. Those animals are smart and once they know they can find tasty food somewhere they'll periodically come by to check it out.

In America infants still get abandoned. Every week one is flushed down a toilet or thrown in a dumpster or left somewhere to be found. Instead of sign aspects I'd be looking for partile/exact aspects before asking someone if they were abandoned.

The section on infants not nourished still applies.

Mother is the 3rd place and father is the 9th place.

The 10th sign from Venus/Moon is the children of your mother and indicates whether your mother has children from different fathers just as the 10th sign from Sun/Saturn indicates if your father has children from different women.

Thanks to the Telephone Game and bad translations that morphed into Mother is the 10th place. And, no, I don't give a hoot what Ptolemy the non-astrologer says. Might as well ask the first dog you see wandering down the street.
 

DC80

Well-known member
Angulr houses are related to here and now,our environment,country etc
Nope.

The 1st angle is your life. The 10th is what you do with it. The 7th is your death. The 4th is what happens to you after you die.
I have jupiter on the MC but in the 9th sign. So,is that good for life abroad,or in my native country? You cant have a planet cadent and angular at the same time

Yes, you can.

We use whole sign to read charts. We use Porphyry to assess the strength/power of a star and to identify the controller to see if there is or isn't a chart ruler. The use of other house systems which were concocted in a vain attempt to make a chart say what it should say had they been using the correct techniques in the first place will lead to wrong conclusions.

Yes, when the MC Point is not in the 10th place we do merge the two signs together for delineation.

Your Ascending Degree is in Gemini therefor Aquarius Jupiter is cadent in the 9th place but functions with the power of an angular star.

To answer the question, yes. Lot of Travel is in Gemini but you're too old to be bumbling around and whatever you do it won't happen until May 2025.
 

DC80

Well-known member
Thread is on Traditional board
so

clearly

PlanetaryJoys.jpg

Seen a lot of charts. All of them are garbage but this is by far probably the best one I've ever seen so far.

"Pleasures" should be "physical pleasures" and "religion" should be "temporal pleasures." That's what the Greek texts actually call them.

And 1st/5th/9th are trine because the 1st is your life, and the 5th being physical pleasures is below the Earth while temporal pleasures are above the Earth in the 9th. And they saw divination, religion, education, philosophy, philanthropy and such as being gifts from god or imparted by a god.

The other thing people don't see is Saturn in the 12th. No star joys unless it's in sect but a Saturn diurnally place in a diurnal sign is in opposition to the 6th place of illness and injuries and that is why Saturn protects precisely because he is in opposition. And he sextiles the 10th as a bonus.

"Travel" is phrased as "being away from home" which was not a pleasant thing for Greeks and Romans. A vacation or exotic trip for pleasure is 5th place.

Each place echoes the place opposite. That's why 12th is also illness/injury and 11th is also children so you want Venus in the 5th or 11th and preferably in sect.
 

waybread

Staff member
Some historical infill. History is a subject filled with lively debates, but there is a presumption that there is a way in which the past actually happened.

1. The Jewish prohibition against intermarriage appears in Deuteronomy 7: 3-4. The explanation given is that the Jews have a special destiny; and if they intermarried, the non-Jewish spouse could turn the Jewish spouse against God, and into the service of foreign gods. This harkens back to the first commandment.

The Jewish Bible/Old Testament is negative about predictive astrology, but it pre-dated the invention of horoscopic astrology and horoscope houses. It would have referred to the "king and country" mundane astrology of Babylon.

2. "Traditional astrology" spans centuries and nations. it is not restricted to Hellenistic astrology. Any house system devised prior to the 18th century is "traditional."

3. Traditionally the 4th house represents the father, not just as Dad, but in the sense of patrimony, or ancestral heritage. This might include ancestral lands, such as an estate; or citizenship status.

A good case can be made for horoscope houses coming out of ancient Egyptian beliefs about the passage of the soul through the afterlife.

We especially see the Egyptian house connection in surviving Egyptian Demotic horoscopes. (Thank you, Otto Neugebauer.) Demotic was the Egyptian language written in script, not hieroglyphics. Some of these horoscopes refer to the 4th house as the "Dwat" (Duat,) the judgement hall of Osiris. Osiris judged the dead, and was also father of the young sun god Horus.

From this I think we get a more spiritual idea of the 4th as the house of endings, and also the house of the father, given the Egyptian belief in parallel journeys for the soul and the sun.

4. The 5th house rules one's children and enjoyments of various kinds. Venus joys in this house. The goddess Venus got equated to Hathor, the Egyptian goddess of childbirth, midwifery, and merriment of different sorts. Interestingly, the name Hathor meant "the House of Horus," the younger sun god. This might be the origin of casual love affairs attributed to the 5th, vs. marriage as a legal contract in the 7th.

There's a lot more evidence linking ancient Egyptian beliefs to the thematic meanings of houses, but I digress.

5. There were several known breeds of working dogs in the ancient world, notably the Rottweiler/mastiff ancestor of the Roman legions. On dogs in ancient Egypt and Greece:
https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/miscellanea/canes/canes.html

6. A lot of medical care in the ancient world was provided by herbalists and midwives. Abortifacients were known (possibly pennyroyal under the purview of Demeter,) but discarding unwanted babies in rubbish heaps was a common practice. The ancient Egyptians were known for medical astrology (cf. Imhotep,) but it probably didn't apply to poor people.

7. "Wild beasts" would have been found in wild places. Probably not roaming the streets of ancient Rome or Athens. Egyptians certainly knew about jackals, venomous scorpions and snakes.

8. There is a fair but of variety on the house of the mother. Some used the 7th for women. The tradition of the 10th for the mother is basically a turned house system: the 7th from the 4th. The moon joys in the 3rd, but this placement seems to be simply to balance the sun (Apollo) joying in the 9th. (Artemis being Apollo's sister.) Some of Apollo's rulerships remain with the 9th house today (prophecy, law,) while others may be an older stratum relating to the constellation Sagittarius in the form of Chiron/Kheiron. (wisdom, education.)
 

waybread

Staff member
Nope.

The 1st angle is your life. The 10th is what you do with it. The 7th is your death. The 4th is what happens to you after you die.


Yes, you can.

We use whole sign to read charts. We use Porphyry to assess the strength/power of a star and to identify the controller to see if there is or isn't a chart ruler. The use of other house systems which were concocted in a vain attempt to make a chart say what it should say had they been using the correct techniques in the first place will lead to wrong conclusions.

Yes, when the MC Point is not in the 10th place we do merge the two signs together for delineation.

Your Ascending Degree is in Gemini therefor Aquarius Jupiter is cadent in the 9th place but functions with the power of an angular star.

To answer the question, yes. Lot of Travel is in Gemini but you're too old to be bumbling around and whatever you do it won't happen until May 2025.
Any house system devised prior to the 18th century is a traditional house system. Some astrologers prefer Placidus for timing events. Regiomontanus is traditional in horary astrology.

Of course, each of us will have a favorite house system for a particular purpose.

If you accept that the 7th (vs. the 8th) is your death and the 4th is "what happens after you die," this seems very Egyptian. (as per point 3 in my previous post.)

The 8th house IMO came to symbolize death because during an Egyptian summer, mid/late afternoon (not noon) is the beastly hot time of day. This is not a good time for people to be outside. Yes, the Greeks had a house system based on angularity, but it doesn't get at the meat of thematic meanings of most of the houses.

Planetary joys position the two malefics against each other and the two benefics against each other. Saturn (12th) and Jupiter (11th) belong to the day sect; and Mars (6th) and Venus (5th) to the night sect.

Socrates, you're not too old to travel! Bon voyage!
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Seen a lot of charts. All of them are garbage but this is by far probably the best one I've ever seen so far. "..Pleasures.." should be "..physical pleasures.." and "..religion.." should be "..temporal pleasures.." That's what the Greek texts actually call them.
Thankyou for the good info

And 1st/5th/9th are trine because the 1st is your life, and the 5th being physical pleasures is below the Earth while temporal pleasures are above the Earth in the 9th. And they saw divination, religion, education, philosophy, philanthropy and such as being gifts from god or imparted by a god.

The other thing people don't see is Saturn in the 12th. No star joys unless it's in sect but a Saturn diurnally place in a diurnal sign is in opposition to the 6th place of illness and injuries and that is why Saturn protects precisely because he is in opposition. And he sextiles the 10th as a bonus.

"..Travel.." is phrased as "..being away from home.." which was not a pleasant thing for Greeks and Romans. A vacation or exotic trip for pleasure is 5th place.
good point to highlight the distinction - thanks :)

Each place echoes the place opposite. That's why 12th is also illness/injury and 11th is also children so you want Venus in the 5th or 11th and preferably in sect.
important point re: Venus - thanks

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