Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

Outlook

Well-known member
... but isolation and exclusion still doesnt apply to saturn. saturn cannot take responsibility, make sacrifices, shoulder burdens if it excludes and isolates! in fact all those are then removed and the person is left only with one thing….a vacuum…emotional and possibly intellectual vacuum. because lets face it by removing emotion, isolation becomes heaven…as long as you have mental stimulation….! removing both (as has been proven in prisons), the person fast deteriorates to insanity.

so no. saturn is the very opposite of isolation and exclusion.

[Deleted reference to previous modern planet reference that has been deleted. - Moderator]
 
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Outlook

Well-known member
w
Quite right, you know.

A lot of mistakes were made translating and interpreting older texts. It's gonna take a few decades for many people to get that through their brains.
where you have texts translated from a translation…a multi layered result….it becomes completely unreliable.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
... but isolation and exclusion still doesnt apply to saturn.

on the contrary :)
SATURN has JOY in 12th house which represents places denied access to public view that are in seclusion or isolated
where one is restricted from living a carefree life-style, such as institutions or prisons.


saturn cannot take responsibility, make sacrifices, shoulder burdens if it excludes and isolates! in fact all those are then removed and the person is left only with one thing….a vacuum…emotional and possibly intellectual vacuum. because lets face it by removing emotion, isolation becomes heaven…as long as you have mental stimulation….! removing both (as has been proven in prisons), the person fast deteriorates to insanity.
so no. saturn is the very opposite of isolation and exclusion.

prisons are isolated environments
SATURN traditionally isolates & excludes in various ways dependent on the particular natal


[Deleted reference to previous modern planet reference that has been deleted. - Moderator]
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
A lot of mistakes were made translating and interpreting older texts.
HOWEVER
Today's traditional astrologers have easy access to multiple fresh translations
made by expert renowned scholars :)
translating from the original texts written in ancient languages

for example:
With fluency in Arabic AND Latin, Benjamin Dykes is translating
the great works from the past

complete with scholarly annotations.
& is selling the results to the general public

- he has figured out how to use print-on-demand to do so.


It's gonna take a few decades for many people to get that through their brains.
Indeed

.
 
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DC80

Well-known member
where you have texts translated from a translation…a multi layered result….it becomes completely unreliable.
It isn't just that, it's the ambiguity of a lot of the translations.

Fortuna is Asc + Sun - Moon but does reverse actually mean Asc - Sun - Moon? That would be reversing zodiac order.

Slave is another. If you look at those texts written in Greek, they use two different words but both are translated and interpreted as "slave." Yet Aristotle (and others) uses both of those words in two completely different contexts, and in the way case, context is irrelevant because Aristotle is very clear on what he's talking about. When he says "slave" he's referring to a class of people that we would otherwise know as serfs or peasants, or peons if you're into Spanish, and villains if you want to get Frenchified. It's clear he's talking about what we would call today the Lower Middle Class and the Lower Class. His point was they'd never amount to more than manual labor at the most and menial labor at the least.

But, yeah, I translate stuff all the time (not these languages) but you have a Greek text translated into Arabic and then translated into Old Persian and then translated into English (and sometimes translated into Latin before being translated into English. So, yeah, something's gonna get lost in translation.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
It isn't just that, it's the ambiguity of a lot of the translations.

Fortuna is Asc + Sun - Moon but does reverse actually mean Asc - Sun - Moon? That would be reversing zodiac order.

Slave is another. If you look at those texts written in Greek, they use two different words but both are translated and interpreted as "slave." Yet Aristotle (and others) uses both of those words in two completely different contexts, and in the way case, context is irrelevant because Aristotle is very clear on what he's talking about. When he says "slave" he's referring to a class of people that we would otherwise know as serfs or peasants, or peons if you're into Spanish, and villains if you want to get Frenchified. It's clear he's talking about what we would call today the Lower Middle Class and the Lower Class. His point was they'd never amount to more than manual labor at the most and menial labor at the least.

But, yeah, I translate stuff all the time (not these languages) but you have a Greek text translated into Arabic and then translated into Old Persian and then translated into English (and sometimes translated into Latin before being translated into English. So, yeah, something's gonna get lost in translation.
Until Benjamin Dykes https://bendykes.com/product/astrology-of-sahl-volume-i/
& others https://www.robertschmidtastrology.com/
fluent in ancient Greek, Arabic, Old Persian, Latin et al :)
compared & contrasted ancient manuscripts
tracing/finding/determining & rectifying these errors with new updated translations
reasonably priced
providing an opportunity for any interested to study



.
 

DC80

Well-known member
With fluency in Arabic AND Latin, Benjamin Dykes is translating
the great works from the past

Except those texts were translated from Greek texts, so all he's doing is compounding the errors made by the Arabs and Latins.

No one is sure what Egypt was, but from the 4th Century BCE to the 7th Century CE it was Greek. Ptolemy the Roman citizen in Egypt writing in Greek. After that, it was Arabic until it was Circassian Turkic and then later Seljuk Turkic. To catch the errors in the Arab texts translated from Greek, you have to know Greek.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Except those texts were translated from Greek texts, so all he's doing is compounding the errors made by the Arabs and Latins
not at all - Benjamin Dykes has compared & contrasted ancient manuscripts Arabic, Latin
& Greek in collaboration with for example Robert Zoller and Chris Brennan :)

tracing/finding/determining
& rectifying these errors
with new updated translations

including extensive commentaries

.No one is sure what Egypt was,

Siriusly :)

Information flowed from Sumer & Akkad to Egypt
and then through the Hittite Kingdom to the Eastern Greeks in Phrygia and Lydia
and then to the Western Greeks on the mainland.
The destruction of the Hittite Kingdom cut off the flow information out of Mesopotamia
and the destruction of Sumer & Akkad cut off the flow of all information.

From that point forward, you have two separate distinct civilizations rise
the Greeks and the Egyptians - and further east of the Zagros Mountains the Persians and Medes.


but from the 4th Century BCE to the 7th Century CE it was Greek.
Ptolemy the Roman citizen in Egypt writing in Greek.
After that, it was Arabic until it was Circassian Turkic and then later Seljuk Turkic.

And then the Greeks conquer the Egyptians and Persians
and then the Romans conquer all of them
and then the Turks conquer all of them

and the next thing you know, it’s Spring-time in Germany for Hitler.

To catch the errors in the Arab texts translated from Greek, you have to know Greek.
  • Ben has published 18 books over the past decade.
    • Largely translations from Latin, Arabic, and Greek.
    • He took Latin in high school, and started by translating Guido Bonatti.
  • His second book was Works of Sahl and Masha’allahin 2008.
    • Masha’allah and Sahl wrote in Arabic in the late 8th and early 9th centuries
    • Bio/times of Sahl and Masha’allah.
  • Sahl’s period of activity was around 815–825 CE.
    • Sahl’s connection to Buran of Baghdad through her father.
  • Their texts were later translated into Latin around the 12th century
  • Later astrologers like William Lilly in the 17th century drew on these Latin translations
  • Originally Ben translated Sahl and Masha’allah from the Latin versions.
  • In the early 2010s Ben decided to learn Arabic
    • Wanted to go back to the original texts.
  • First published Arabic translation was Dorotheus of Sidon
  • This is his second published translation from Arabic
    • It is a huge 800 page book
  • About the book
    • Compilation of several works of Sahl translated from Arabic
    • Separate texts on natal astrology, horary, elections, and more.
  • New translations of some works translated from Latin previously
    • Important because it turns out the Latin versions had changes made
    • The language is much richer in Arabic, and surprisingly close to the Greek
    • Chris Brennan was surprised at how well the Arabic terms matched the Greek
  • The most important and longest text is On Nativities
    • One of the most comprehensive treatments of natal astrology
    • Draws on a number of Greek, Persian, and Arabic sources
    • Has a lot of cool delineation material on the rulers of the houses.
      • Earliest complete set of delineations for house rulers.
      • Rhetorius from the 6th century is incomplete.
  • Other interesting points:
    • Sahl drew heavily on Rhetorius, via Al-Andarzaghar
    • New Māshā’allāh texts embedded in Sahl.
    • Possible solution to whole sign houses and quadrant houses issue
      • The use of both is taken for granted by Sahl
      • He has special terms used when referring to one or the other
    • Interesting passage about zodiac sign cusps in Sahl.
    • Definition of the void of course Moon.
  • Other projects and translations Ben is working on.
    • Forthcoming translation of Abu Ma’shar.
    • Preparing a course on Medieval natal astrology
      • Sahl will be one of the primary texts for that course.

.
 
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Outlook

Well-known member
Astrology likely goes way back than 1300BC which is the approx period when total civilisation collapsed in the entire middle east region. the collapse spanned 150 years and seems to have spread the entire Med region to Asia. So called boat people were arriving into eastern med and Persian regions with animals, families and all possessions. not invading, but arriving driven by necessity. quite what happened is anyones guess but long term protracted severe drought is one cause. Archeologists cant agree on this never mind the exists ce of fabled Antlantis. Its all very speculative. Geology at least verifies santorini blowing around this era. That would have created such sudden diabolical climate as to collapse everything suddenly for the period described. it would fit but its anyones pet theory.
it was so severe a collapse that all literacy was lost, most humans died.

new language in post collapse regional Greece began post that period. That is now become Ancient Greek. Archeologists are still unable to determine the languages pre 1300BC collapse. so total was the collapse. those langues were different.

But pre collapse the region was highly successful and wealthy with much trade, communication and collaboration in the entire asia, Med areas. So yes, it all points to people communicating. they exchanged ideas and info. they collaborated.

then it all suddenly ended. there followed 100 odd years of strife and utter collapse of everything.

post collapse circa 1300 bc new ancient greek and ancient arabic are not similar at all. ancient greek and modern greek have more similarity but not entirely the same. minoan is lost completely. Latin mixture was much later and very much post all this.

the antikythera mechanism predates to roughly 70BC. not far back enough to give indicators of origin of real knowledge from 1300BC collapsed civilisations. But enough to show that some knowledge and know-how somehow survived the 700-1000 year passage.

ancient greece (post collapse of 1300bc) was filled with libraries of knowledge probably stemming from pre 1300BC. all destroyed by invading roman armies. Plato had access to it all. his tetrabiblo was based on those. but again, the original docs were pre ancient greek. he translated. he cobbled together from those documents creating his version in what we call ancient greek ….and he made errors.

as the bible tells us, as do archeologists, there were many languages. all language was destroyed 1300bc and there followed a hard reset.

Ancient Persia went back to 100000bc. there is considerable history there. there was corresponding destruction to civilisations at the 1000BC mark there also. New comers the Aryans resettled there after that. Alex. the great destroyed it in 330 bc but fell to Islam 7 AD. its likely Alex the great had documents moved to Greece during his rule and before the arrival of Islam. Either way, the Romans destroyed, pilfered and sold them after they invaded greece 146 bc.

So translations went from original languages pre 1000BC to Ancient greek. from ancient pre-Aryan? to ancient Persian …to ancient Greek. to Latin. Thats BC era.

below article sums up many university publications that have resulted from studies into Ptolemy’s tetrabiblos:

https://www.newscientist.com/people/claudius-ptolemy/

really for all we know Ptolemy was probably a publisher of many pieces by many people each expounding their understanding of some section research from the great libraries of a thousand years before, all now lost, each with its own errors of translation. and this has continued now for centuries.

astronomers were able to recover from the fraud of Ptolemy. Astrologers cant.
 
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Outlook

Well-known member
[deleted response to suggesting post was off-topic - Moderator]

a LOT if not all of astrology we have today is based on Ptolemy. Perhaps there might have been older astrological texts in Persia from the Sumer dynasty who we can thank to be the fathers of astrology, being the oldest dynasty on record but since Alex. invaded they probably all landed up in Athens libraries for Ptolemy or other students to translate.

if I could, ancient Athens and its libraries would be the place I would go back to in my rusty time machine, on a one way ticket.

never mind, maybe when Long Valley Caldera CA explodes, which its showing signs of revving up, we will have a repeat of the civilization reset of 1000bc and know some rest from the decay of this one.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
a LOT if not all of astrology we have today is based on Ptolemy. Perhaps there might have been older astrological texts in Persia from the Sumer dynasty who we can thank to be the fathers of astrology, being the oldest dynasty on record but since Alex. invaded they probably all landed up in Athens libraries for Ptolemy or other students to translate.

Curtis Manwaring of the Lost Horoscope X-files:
"..Well over 90% of everything that was ever written on the subject is lost
so debating what Greek astrologers did is probably an exercise in futility.. :)
We know that Ptolemy, for example, seems to have been a theoretician
rather than a 'working-class' astrologer
.
For Dorotheus, Firmicus and Hephaistio, we don't have much information.

But it is commonly known
that Valens was indeed a '..working-class astrologer..'

often prefacing statements with phrases like:

"..I wandered throughout Egypt in search of knowledge
until someone taught me this technique, and I have found it to work beautifully.."


"..I have found this lot to be very mystical and important.."


Valens speaks from his own personal experience as a working astrologer
which makes me want to trust him.."


Vettius Valens "..The Anthology.." is of such great importance

because not only did Valens NOT '..copy and repeat..'
but also Valens CHRONICLED faithfully the work of his astrological predecessors
WITHOUT ALTERATION
and
WITHOUT IMPOSING his opinions on the ideas of ancient predecessors.

Valens, having faithfully chronicled details of techniques
which, without Valens chronicling of them, would have been consigned to oblivion :)
THEN tested the techniques for himself BECAUSE VALENS WAS A WORKING PRACTICING ASTROLOGER

Valens work is not only a valuable chronicle of ancient astrological techniques

but also an interesting insight regarding Valens own personal testing of those techniques
SO Valens chronicled AS WELL AS tested techniques
which in his time were already considered '..Ancient..'
and in doing so provides more than a hundred example horoscopes :)
for astrologers following him to glean information from.
Valens work is proven reliable in historical terms because Valens horoscopes have been useful

in enabling scholars to date many historical events with more certainty

Ptolemy and Ancient Astronomy - Synopsis: ancient Greek astronomer and mathematician Ptolemy
his geocentric theory of the universe held sway for many centuries.
Ptolemy's model of the universe remained the dominant one for over a thousand years.
It was not until 1543, and Copernicus's heliocentric theory of the world,
that the Ptolemaic model was finally challenged,
and not until 1609 that Johannes Kepler's New Astronomy put an end to his ideas for good.
But how and why did Ptolemy's system survive for so long?


MEANWHILE
Vettius Valens' Anthologiae is the longest extant astrological work from antiquity.
It is unique in several respects: the author was a practicing astrologer
the work includes more than 100 authentic horoscopes of Valens' clients or associates,
including his own, which is used as an example many times throughout the work;

the work also includes tables and the description of algorithms used by astrologers and mathematicians.
Mark T Riley


.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
a LOT if not all of astrology we have today is based on Ptolemy. Perhaps there might have been older astrological texts in Persia from the Sumer dynasty who we can thank to be the fathers of astrology, being the oldest dynasty on record but since Alex. invaded they probably all landed up in Athens libraries for Ptolemy or other students to translate.

Ptolemy did not only compile
in fact, while Ptolemy 'compiled',
Ptolemy altered techniques according to personal prejudice/whim:)
and
Ptolemy, mathematician/astronomer and not a practicing astrologer
had a different rationale/perspective to that of Valens.

Ptolemy built on the work of Apollonius of Perga
who (approximately four centuries earlier than Ptolemy)
developed a form of geometric particular methods within the geometrical practice,
that are to do with circular motion - as well as motions of circles moving on circles and so on
- that Ptolemy then applied to discovering the much sought-after geometrical rationale

thought to be underlying appearances

Thus Ptolemy described a rationale
that '..explained..' retrograde motion
- but incorrectly :)

- because planets do not move with uniform circular motion in circles
Ptolemy's incorrect, yet mathematically appealing, idea of the universe
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/retrograde/aristotle.html


Valens perspective being that of a practicing astrologer
meant that Valens was eager to preserve everything he possibly could intact
for the benefit of future astrologers
. Valens simply compiled without altering what he compiled. :)


Certainly Valens commented on the various astrological techniques but crucially, did not alter any.
That fact taken in tandem with Valen's work being
'the longest extant astrological work from antiquity'
understandably obviously makes Valens an important figure.
Crucially, Valens utilised not only his own horoscope
but also those of more than a 100 authentic horoscopes of his own clients.


Ptolemy doesn't talk very much about people of his own time
instead he talks about observations made centuries earlier by Hipparchus,
another great astronomer

- Observations used by Ptolemy are largely Babylonian via Hipparchus

And it was Hipparchus who, a century after Apollonius
began applying the Apollonian geometry in the first attempt
to describe the movements of the heavenly spheres geometrically.


Hipparchus took the first steps in attempting to make the Apollonian geometry
fit the appearances of the heavens - particularly in relation to the moon and the sun

- by developing those moving circles
as a technique for dealing with the confusing appearances of the heavens


Ptolemy then expanded on the original ideas of both his predecessors, Apollonius and Hipparchus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Perga

Albert Timashev: "..Today it is well known that Greek scientist Claudius Ptolemy
was not a representative of a traditional Greek astrological school
and, most likely, he was never a practicing astrologer at all.
Ptolemy's work Tetrabiblos
reflects his personal and sometimes disputable opinions on many questions."
http://www.astrologer.ru/article/mey.html.en

Unlike Ptolemy, Valens was a practicing astrologer
who provided as evidence
of well over a hundred of his own clients horoscopes.


Ptolemy was a mathematical theorist.
PTOLEMYS WRONG THEORY OF RETROGRADATION :)


Ptolemy+%2885-165+AD%29+In+AD+140+the+Greek+astronomer+Ptolemy+revised+the+geocentric+model+to+explain+all+the+planetary+motions..jpg
 

Outlook

Well-known member
valens was born 120 AD.

ptolemy (and his work) was the influece 100 to 170AD.

ptolemy’s writting influenced and taught Valens long after Ptolemy died. probably he noted the errors and corrected after Ptolemy died. but he himself died 175 Ad so not much time. he wrote his work from 150 to 175 . Way past influence of Ptolemy probably and might have corrected errors.

we dont really know who wrote the books. we assume. but if we learn anything from michelangelo it was probably many contributors all working to earn their living for the master.

ptolemy’s family ruled egypt from 305 to 30 BC. well connected man. he would have had access to major manuscripts.

maybe one day we will find a cache in some burial cave.

there is a very interesting instruction on how to tell time while moving about…find someone, tilt or point them to the sun and tell them to open their mouth. should work wonders today also!
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
.


:saturn: SATURN ISOLATES & EXCLUDES :)


"..Well over 90%
of everything that was ever written on the subject
is lost
so
debating what Greek astrologers did :)

is probably an exercise in futility.."
Curtis Manwaring Horoscope X-files

Ptolemy did not only compile
in fact, while Ptolemy 'compiled',
Ptolemy altered techniques according to personal prejudice/whim:)
and
Ptolemy, mathematician/astronomer and not a practicing astrologer

had a different rationale/perspective to that of Valens.
Ptolemy built on the work of Apollonius of Perga
who (approximately four centuries earlier than Ptolemy)
developed a form of geometric particular methods within the geometrical practice,

that are to do with circular motion - as well as motions of circles moving on circles and so on
- that Ptolemy then applied to discovering the much sought-after geometrical rationale
thought to be underlying appearances
Thus Ptolemy described a rationale
that '..explained..' retrograde motion
- but incorrectly :)

- because planets do not move with uniform circular motion in circles
Ptolemy's incorrect, yet mathematically appealing, idea of the universe
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/retrograde/aristotle.html

Valens perspective being that of a practicing astrologer
meant that Valens was eager to preserve everything he possibly could intact
for the benefit of future astrologers
. Valens simply compiled without altering what he compiled. :)


Certainly Valens commented on the various astrological techniques but crucially, did not alter any.
That fact taken in tandem with Valen's work being
'the longest extant astrological work from antiquity'
understandably obviously makes Valens an important figure.
Crucially, Valens utilised not only his own horoscope
but also those of more than a 100 authentic horoscopes of his own clients.
Ptolemy doesn't talk very much about people of his own time
instead he talks about observations made centuries earlier by Hipparchus,
another great astronomer
- Observations used by Ptolemy are largely Babylonian via Hipparchus

And it was Hipparchus who, a century after Apollonius
began applying the Apollonian geometry in the first attempt
to describe the movements of the heavenly spheres geometrically.


Hipparchus took the first steps in attempting to make the Apollonian geometry

fit the appearances of the heavens - particularly in relation to the moon and the sun
- by developing those moving circles
as a technique for dealing with the confusing appearances of the heavens


Ptolemy then expanded on the original ideas of both his predecessors, Apollonius and Hipparchus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Perga

Albert Timashev: "..Today it is well known that Greek scientist Claudius Ptolemy
was not a representative of a traditional Greek astrological school
and, most likely, he was never a practicing astrologer at all.
Ptolemy's work Tetrabiblos
reflects his personal and sometimes disputable opinions on many questions." http://www.astrologer.ru/article/mey.html.en
Unlike Ptolemy, Valens was a practicing astrologer
who provided as evidence

of well over a hundred of his own clients horoscopes.
Ptolemy was a mathematical theorist.
PTOLEMYS WRONG THEORY OF RETROGRADATION :)
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
.


It is important to realize
that Valens is 300+ years AFTER
the founders VALENS is fond of quoting :)

i.e
the founders Valens quoted pre-date/PRECEDE ptolemy


.
 

Outlook

Well-known member
.


It is important to realize
that Valens is 300+ years AFTER
the founders VALENS is fond of quoting :)

i.e
the founders Valens quoted pre-date/PRECEDE ptolemy


.
stop making things up as you go along. wiki isnt my favourite for accuracy but its fine for this

any 300 yr odd precedence would put anyone smack into the Ptolemic era….Ptolemy’s family ruled. it would mean they controlled all stash of ancient docs.

i am firmly of the mind given the odd highly accurate and highly inaccurate mix of published records that what we know as Ptolemy’s books Re really composite pieces written by numerous people all translating from ancient Aryan from old Sumer. for me its the most logical.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vettius_Valens
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
.It is important to realize
that Valens is 300+ years AFTER
the founders VALENS is fond of quoting :)

i.e
the founders Valens quoted pre-date/PRECEDE ptolemy
.
Fact :)
SATURN ISOLATES & EXCLUDES :)
"..Well over 90%
of everything that was ever written on the subject
is lost so debating what Greek astrologers did :)

is probably an exercise in futility.."
Curtis Manwaring Horoscope X-files

.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Thus Ptolemy described a rationale
that '..explained..' retrograde motion
- but incorrectly
Ptolemy+%2885-165+AD%29+In+AD+140+the+Greek+astronomer+Ptolemy+revised+the+geocentric+model+to+explain+all+the+planetary+motions..jpg

Valens perspective being that of a practicing astrologer
meant that Valens was eager to preserve everything he possibly could intact
for the benefit of future astrologers. Valens simply compiled without altering what he compiled.

Certainly Valens commented on the various astrological techniques but crucially, did not alter any.

That fact taken in tandem with Valen's work being 'the longest extant astrological work from antiquity'
understandably obviously makes Valens an important figure.

Crucially, Valens utilised not only his own horoscope
but also those of more than a 100 authentic horoscopes of his own clients.

.
 
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