Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?


Well-known member
Larxene, you were quick to dismiss that Saturn is supported by both Moon and Venus, who look at him (with their rays) from the trine and sextile, and instead wanted to go to Jupiter.

One of the mitigating factor I would consider is the waxing Moon dominating Saturn with a dexter square. The Moon is in-sect, exalted and angular. In such a position, it tends to be beneficial to the native. It is still not full yet, but the waxing Moon is beneficial when aspecting the diurnal planets, Maternus implies.

I do not consider the sextile with Venus to be very helpful. Sextiles are very weak, and according to Maternus, they are only of middling strength when the sign in between is tropical or mutable (yours is mutable). So imagine, even at its full force (with the sign in between being an equinoctial sign, Aries or Libra), it is already very much weakened, so in a mutable sign the effects will be very slight.

First, I did not dismiss the Moon's beneficence towards Saturn. In fact, I consider it one of the main beneficial influences.

Secondly, while I agree that Venus is a benefic influence towards Saturn, I said that the effects will be very slight, and therefore not very helpful. I am following Maternus's doctrine in this, so other authors may say something different.

Okay, let me re-evaluate the combination.

Consider Venus's strength. In Libra (strong), matutine (middling), 12th House by WSH (weak). I would say about average or middle strength. Now consider Venus's favourability. In Libra (highly benefic), of the sect (highly benefic), 12th House by WSH (beneficence is strongly obstructed), Mars retrograde and in dexter quartile to Venus (beneficence is sometimes obstructed).

The aspect to Saturn is a sextile, the sign in between is bi-corporeal, Venus is on the left (weak benefic influence). With all these considerations, I still consider it to be a weak influence. This is because the highly beneficial influence of Venus is often being turned away from the native, and its relationship with Saturn is slight.

I would say that Venus's influence will be stronger and more effective on Jupiter, since they are in opposition.

I am not familiar with the use of trigon lords at the moment, so I do not use it.

dr. farr

Well-known member
I notice that Venus is also the grand (or ultimate) dispositor of this chart (the concept of grand/ultimate dispositor was introduced by Morin de Villefranche in the 17th century)

I agree that Venus has only a minor (albeit +) influence on Saturn: I consider the influence upon Saturn of Jupiter, to be much greater.

I'm not so sanguine about the Moon's influence in this chart, though: yes its angular and in exaltation, however the Moon is in platik (by sign) square to Saturn (in whole sign), and is in close opposition (by degrees) to first house Mercury, and is also within orb of opposition (by degrees) to the ascending degree itself; and the Moon is in platik (by sign) conjunction with the South Node: I'd read the Moon's influence under these circumstances as strong (by angularity and exaltation) but quite detrimental to certain other chart factors (ascending degree, Mercury, Saturn)....
Last edited:


Well-known member
Let's just say that the effects of the Moon on Saturn are both favourable and unfavourable. In fact, Maternus would probably say that this combination (along with Sun in the 1st) causes death of the parents, or wretchedness.

Marius Cojoc

Active member
In my opinion,

Kronos has two friends: Aphrodite because of the Balance and Hermes because of the Twins. This is the hellenistic doctrine of sunoikodespotes or joint domicile master, which you will find in the vedic astrology as friends and foes doctrine. Neither of them could provide help because Kronos dosen’t recive their testimonies. Testimony appears only when the figure (hexagonal, tetragonal etc) is perfected before that, one of the planets, leaves their image. The hellenistic doctrine of aspects is very elaborate and definitely implies orbs.

Reception is made trough the confines. Kronos is in the confines of Zeus. Kronos and Zeus are in a trigonal figure, but because the figure is not perfected before one of the planets leaves their image, there is no testimony. No testimony, no real help.

Kronos is in the first heliacal cycle, oriental to Helios. This lessens the maleficence of Kronos. This phase support the planet to conduct its businesses for Helios agenda. This really helps.

Selene is in a tetragonal figure with Kronos. The figure, will be perfected before one of the planet leaves their image. This is a testimonial relationship. Selene waxing in light or full, especially in a day chart, is favorable to Kronos and Zeus. Selene will provide great fortune after great calamities. Selene is in a superior position, in the 10th image from Kronos. We deal with the issue of decimation (overcoming). Kronos will be conquered by Selene. Also this, really helps.
Last edited:


Well-known member
Marius, can you elaborate on the sunoikodespotes?

Googling the terms I found two relevant results. The term loosely means "with the domicile master (of the chart)". Apparently there are two ways to interpret that, but the one mainly used is the bound/term lord of the predominator (Epikratetor if I understand correctly?) Using either the Sun or Moon as predominator and Dorothean terms, we get Mercury or Jupiter respectively. I don't know how you got Mercury and Venus.


Well-known member
You are absolutely correct in the fact that your Saturn is heavily debilitated. However, everyone here has missed the obvious, very easy to spot thing, and that is the saving grace of Jupiter. Your Jupiter is aspecting the houses that are influenced by Saturn - 9th house where Saturn lies, is 5th house from Jupiter so Jupiter aspects that house and protects it. So for example when you had problems with school, Jupiter came in just in time and saved you from having rest of your life problems because you would not have finished your last term exams...but you just did! That is shown by Jupiters saving grace.

Jupiter also aspects 1st house from its 9th aspect, bringing optimism into your personality and ability to turn abilities into knowledge and wisdom and make yourself opportunities. Saturn rules your 3rd house, which can definitely show that you were probably overly structured and overly perfectionistic in early school, like primary school. It might have been that you were quite serious when you were this age and it might be that the time was quite tough on you.

So overall Saturn does not have a lot of play room in your chart really, cause everywhere it tries to do damage, Jupiter comes in an protects and diminishes its effects. Saturn can roam a bit and make some parts of your life difficult at times, but you will always be saved by Jupiter. It is like your little guardian angel.

Hope this helps!

This is a really great post because I wanted to tell the OP that the reason Saturn hasn't done so much expected damage is because she has a really great attitude! It makes perfect sense that Jupiter is softening those potential blows.

Great thread guys!

dr. farr

Well-known member
I am going to save further comments and observations I have regarding OP's Saturn situation, until the OP returns here and tells us what she thinks-based on her own experiences-of what we posters to this thread, have had to say, regarding Saturn's influences in the OP's life.


Well-known member


On thing I can mention: regarding such things as Face and Bright Degrees (also Dark Degrees, Pitted and Elevated degrees), the authors that described them (Antiochus of Athens, Abu Mashar, al-Biruni, Ibn Ezra) spoke of them as modifying the condition of any planets posited in them: Face, of course, is an essential dignity, but the others were considered accidental, either dignity or detriment: so, a planet in Face and Bright Degree, would pick up 2 "dignities" (one essential, one accidental) in coming to a consideration of its "net" state (of dignity or detriment) Monomoira (degree rulerships), referred to by Ibn Ezra, go back more to the Hellenist period (eg Antiochus of Athens)-during the Middle Ages and Renaissance, mostly planetary monomoiria were used (in the reference chart natal Saturn is in the 3rd planetary monomoiria of Leo, which = the monomoiria of Mercury): however, Ibn Ezra also refers to the sign monomoiria (in the "Beginning of Wisdom", which reference is briefly footnoted by Robert Hand): for the use of sign monomoiria we have to refer back to the 4th century author Maximus, and-during the Islamic transitional era-to Harranian author Thabit ibn Qurra, who offers a paragraph in his "Gayat el Kawkeb" ("Way of the Planets") to the effect that these sign monomoiria are additional modifiers of the dignity/debility status of planets posited in them (as were bright/dark, pitted/elevated degrees and planetary monomoiria) I do not find any of the authors (listed above) who speak about essential vs accidental dignity/debility, specifically mentioning monomoiria as being either essential or accidental dignity/debility, and they were never mentioned (that I am aware of) among the 5 "classes" of essentials as given in the classical literature (face, term, triplicity, sign, exaltation)-so, I have considered monomoiria (both planetary and sign monomoiria) with the accidentals (same consideration I have for yet another sign subdivision mentioned in Manilius, Valens, Maternus, Abu Mashar, al-Biruni, Thabit ibn Qurra, Ibn Ezra, ie, duodenaries: sign 1/12ths) However, since I don't use a numerically based weighing protocol for essential vs accidental dignity/debility, for me whether the testimony for detriment or dignity arises from essential or accidental sources, really makes no difference in my delineation of the totality of testimonies regarding a particular planet in a particular chart.

Thank you for your posts Dr Farr
A question on the degrees and their classifications which one is correct Abu masar or alqabisi? I also noticed different classification at skyscript by Deborah Houlding


Well-known member
Thank you for your posts Dr Farr
A question on the degrees and their classifications which one is correct Abu masar or alqabisi? I also noticed different classification at skyscript by Deborah Houlding
Hi Hsn1983 :smile:
Notice that dr. farr's last post on this thread was 2014
it is awhile since dr. farr posted on our forum
the reasons are discussed at


Premium Member
An interesting topic.

saturn is not debilated as such, gets debilated in aries.

sat in enemy sign leo 9th, good for admin aptitude and distant travels;

sat lord 3rd retro all the more strong malefic,
delaying luck-educ-travels-father under great stress,

sat retro towards cancer 9th turning to be sensitive

jup 5th aries trine sat leo 9th both for teaching-advisory-ministerial roles;
retro jup pisces trine elevated aspect over retro sat cancer 9th,

cancer-moon however inimical for scorpio asc, stress-delays again;

inimical moon-ketu elevated taurus 7th, creative-energetic-extra stubborn,
love for food-comforts, hotel management-banking,
prone to pain-injury-surgery abdominals, throat-teeth-thyroid;
stress delays in relationship and luck after marriage, ketu separative moreover;

sun-mer-rahu scorpio asc, research-occult aptitudes,magnetic personality,
sun ill health during infancy, separative in marriage,
sun-moon opp born around full moon, blurred thinking/confused.

rahu association aptitude for politics, rise-fall in life, need ancestor worship,

rahu debilated dark scorpio over-indulgence into the occult, to avoid;
debilation of rahu cancelled as venus lord of elevation own sign libra 11th,
gradual pace of growth in life;
sun-mer-rahu scorpio aspected by retro jup pisces and contained,
while promoting research-occult aptitudes;

sat leo 9th occult interests;

asc lord mars debilated cancer 8th, affecting health, suppressed anger;
prone to water accidents;
mars debilation cancelled by elevated aspect from retro jup pisces,
gradual pace of growth and health improvement;
debilated mars elevated aspect over cap 2nd protective of finances;

sat leo aspect own acq 3rd, promoting initiative-progress,
though may not be good for sibling health;

sat cancer too aspect own capricorn and protective;

sat coincidentally 9th lord from moon too, settling at 36+/thumb rule.

sat elevated aspect over venus-libra 11th promoting income-gains.
sat transit 3/6/11 from asc/moon good; sat transit 10th rise-fall in career;

sat though malefic could yet be positive for certain matters as above.

hope observations help the discussion and debate,

best regards,



Well-known member
I'm not sure you want Saturn particularly strong.

This chart is my own natal:


As you can see, Saturn is quite strong here. He also sits in the twelfth house, where he supposedly 'delights' at working mischief.

The strong Saturn vs. strong Moon opposition is probably the keynote to my chart. I've always had an emotional resistance to accepting the responsibilities of adult life. I am a terrible procrastinator, and may undermine myself due to that trait. I sort tasks not by urgency but by intellectual interest. Recently, I've been forced to face responsibilities, by illness, as the sixth house Moon suggests.

One gift a strong Saturn in 12 may have given me is that I am relatively calm facing the prospect of my own death. I don't have a timeline in months or years, but I am sick with the illness that will inevitably kill me. And I find I don't mind terribly. Jupiter actually rules 12 here, giving me a philosophical take on my own undoing.

Mercury is also strong, and in the fifth house doesn't help much. I am rather mercurial, an eternal dilettante in astrology and many other things. I pick my intellectual interests up and put them aside until I pick them up again.

Fortuna, too, is in 12. I've always been an intense loner and a very private person. IRL I am a lawyer, and I can keep your secrets. When I was in junior high, I devised a cryptographic script, inspired in part by the Voynich manuscript. I have used it constantly from the early 1970s to the present. I will leave behind several thousand pages in cypher manuscripts, diaries., poems, and journals of various kinds.

Strong Saturn, in other words, may be a dubious blessing. And weak Saturn may have its advantages, especially when aided by Jupiter, as Ebenia suggested.
Last edited:

dr. farr

Well-known member
A question on the degrees and their classifications which one is correct Abu masar or alqabisi? I also noticed different classification at skyscript by Deborah Houlding

I follow Abu Mashar, who in was closest in following the Greco-Roman indications.


Well-known member
And weak Saturn may have its advantages, especially when aided by Jupiter, as Ebenia suggested.

I an confirm Jupiter in H 12 Aqua is a huge help.

Jupiter rules over Sagittarius, despite the fact that my natal Saturn is at 5 degrees; Jupiter rules my MC (Sag) and Asc (Pisces). I don't know if my Saturn is "weak", but it is a LOT stronger with that Jupiter 12th/ Sat-Sag in the 9th.

Im not gloating, I just have this exact configuration in my chart.

I'm not sure which one is in control or driving the bus; Saturn or Jupiter. I have always thought it was Jupiter, which is tricky since it is in the 12th... In Aqua..

Adding the traditional decans is overwhelming to me and has confused me further... I have only been studying for three years and at this point I'm not that far along yet - but my natal Saturn sits in Jupiters decan in my natal H9 Sag on top of it.

[Deleted reference to Uranus. Only traditional planets may be discussed on the Traditional Astrology board. - Moderator]


  • Screen Shot 2017-05-19 at 12.11.15 AM.png
    Screen Shot 2017-05-19 at 12.11.15 AM.png
    83.5 KB · Views: 24
Last edited by a moderator:


Well-known member
For OP's natal chart, although Saturn is dibilitated, it is not badly aspected with the main significator i.e. Sun and Moon. In this case, I wouldn't say it is affecting the native in grossly negative way as such.