Having a baby- any suggestions?

[astro.teacher]

A reason to doubt natal astrology: my mother is an Aries born at noon. There is no doubt she has been successful financially. Emotionally and as a parent, she is an absolute disaster, so broad generalities about the benefits of being born under a particular sign should be avoided whenever possible.

I never suggested it had to do with gaining emotional stability (as you will see in my further post how it is purely for glory, achievement and honor). I never once said that being born in Aries at noon would produce a "perfect" child. I simply said that for honor, that was the first place to look. These are not "broad generalities" either, they are a singular, and very popular occurance to look for when giving birth (which I believe go back to Ptolemy - although dont quote me). This has nothing to do with "being born under Aries will give this, being born under Taurus will give this" and I think you would know me and my posts enough to know I am very much against such generalities.

 

[aquarius7000]

Hi All,

Not being able to hold my thoughts, on this subject, back any longer, I'd like to share them with you. I think, and I’d like to purport by using the adverb ‘unintentionally’, but I feel that we might, at times, be tempted to sort of ‘misuse’ Astrology, as we perhaps get carried away with the power its knowledge gives us. Let me please, at this point of the post itself, make known that this post is my mind-pad expressing simply my thoughts on this issue, and absolutely not meant to challenge, defy or refute any opinions that have been expressed here already.

IMO, it is important to remember that Astrology should not be used as some mathematical formula to calculatingly arrive at a desired result ‘X’, whereby, and let this be said, the nature of ‘X’ is of cardinal importance. An example of this would be, say, if we were using Astrology to find out the best date for a job interview, or even getting married say on a new moon date (which is said to mark a new and auspicious beginning), it is different than trying to find the best zodiac date to bring a new life into the world, whereby we are ‘knowingly’ and ‘intentionally’ if not denying, at least impeding nature to take its normal course of growth and ‘completeness’. Though the underlying idea here might seem the same, but does the end equally justify the means in all the aforementioned cases, and what is the degree of necessity involved to use those ‘calculated’ means in all those cases? Let it be understood that in all the above examples, the ‘doer’ has the best interest, of those that will be directly affected by his/her decision, at heart. I am, nonetheless, inclined to believe that providence or nature (call it what you will) will, under all circumstances have its way, and, even if the natural course is tampered with, then that is just another circumstance that had to occur before the outcome is achieved (ie the baby is born); the doer may be seen as the ‘tool’ to carry out the task; and the fact that the infant 'thus' begins his life in a neo-natal incubator - the infant’s karma. Having said that, the thought, however, of ‘intentionally’ having landed the infant in that incubator (the reason being known), when it could have been otherwise, does seem fairly sinister, or at least gross. We can also look at it this way:- what was the motivating factor to have had an elective caesarian –a) a desired solar and/or lunar placement in a 360° astrological wheel because of the ‘supposed’ qualities this placement ‘may’ impart, or b) say, trying to save a life (mother’s or child’s)? If a) is the case, then firstly, aren’t we gambling for pretty high stakes here, and how sure-shot is that guarantee that that gamble gives us – will the child be just as independent or genius-minded as that solar placement of Aquarius ‘promises’? Secondly, is that all the trust that we have in our own abilities - how we could, as parents, raise and groom the child to become into the human being we would like him to be (regardless of the compassion the Pisces Moon might impart to him, or the achiever the Aries Sun perhaps might make out of him).

To Camilla, I am sure you had not expected such a rich and engrossing discussion on this thread as a response to your simple question, but please try to simply take this as an interesting topic to which we all are actively brainstorming, perhaps even debating a bit. All the best to you for the delivery.

aquarius7000

 

[astro.teacher]

Jerry,

If you read the foregoing posts, I have already explained this to you.

 

[pallas]

If the situation is that a caesarian is called for (as in my case of my second child)...then someone will be picking the day..either the parent or the doctor?
So at that point what does it matter...the time will be when the doctor
can fit in the appt.

And like I said in my previous post...the baby may just come before then
of its own accord...

The poster already said her due date was Sept 12th..so obviously
there is nothing machavelian going on here with trying to great sometype
of super hero baby...mom just wanted to know if there was a timing preference for the proceedure..just like we would look for a good time of a wedding or starting a job or a surgery....

If nothing else this has been a jolly good discussion all around.
Mazel Tov to the parents and new baby.
And no I'm not jewish...
the saying is for one of good fortune...
meaning: may you be born under lucky stars
Ironic isn't it?

 

[archergirl]

If the situation is that a caesarian is called for (as in my case of my second child)...then someone will be picking the day..either the parent or the doctor?
So at that point what does it matter...the time will be when the doctor
can fit in the appt.

Yes, but this does not appear to be the intention of the querent. She said:

I am a Taurus, Virgo rising Pisces moon. The dad is a Pisces, Gemini moon, sag rising. Any suggestions as to when a good birth date would be for the baby, If I have any influence on this at all?

This implies that a) she is looking for the 'ideal' birthdate for her baby and b) this is a purely elective procedure. What the **** is wrong with September 12th!?

JerryRR:

Post #12.

Please explain.

Are you a robot, or is there a language issue, or what?

astro.teacher:

I think you would know me and my posts enough to know I am very much against such generalities.

I do, and I wasn't necessarily suggesting that that's what you were saying. I was taking issue more with the idea that being born under Aries at noon (giving a 10th house Sun, generally) brings glory and success. I understand the Ptolomean underpinnings; I was just giving an example of why being born under Aries at noon is an incomplete picture of an individual. We could just as well say that being born under Sagittarius at 10 in the morning brings not worldly success, but a **** interesting life. It takes the rest of the chart to pad things out.

AG

 

[dancinglight]

Please people, lets keep this debate Astrologically related. The simple fact is that the world is controled over by Astrology (to what degree is debated but its safe to say in this case it is).

Sorry, but I disagree completely with this.

Individuals control their own destiny. Astrology is a wonderful tool, a guide....but it's not fate, and it doesn't 'control' anything.

I have cared for sick infants whose date of birth was chosen because of a whim of the parents, or the convenience of the doctor. They shouldn't have been born so early, or at that time....they weren't ready. They were compromised at birth and suffered because someone felt the need to 'control' the date and time of birth.

So no, I can't keep this debate astrologically related because I have concerns about how ethical it is to interfere with what should be a natural process (barring any emergency situation). And I agree with Radu that doing so is a misuse of astrology.

 

[astro.teacher]

Sorry, but I disagree completely with this.

Individuals control their own destiny. Astrology is a wonderful tool, a guide....but it's not fate, and it doesn't 'control' anything.

As I said in my statement, its validity is up for debate. However I personally believe that Astrology has control over everything, that is the philosophy I believe in and follow, however I will never say anyone else should believe what I say, I am simply sharing my views because they make sense to me, as i do with all my posts (and everyone else does here). I know enough enough concerning Astrology to see its workings in even the most minute aspects of the earth and therefore build my judgments on that observation. You (or others) may not agree and that is perfectly within your right.

They were compromised at birth and suffered because someone felt the need to 'control' the date and time of birth.

If you have no control, then you have no need to elect a time to give birth. Ive always been a firm believer that a child should be born when it decides to come out, regardless if it is due earlier (for due dates are based on nothing substantial) unless of course there is a medical emergency. Elections that involve outside variables other than your own actions rarely if ever come to good success.

When it comes to ethics, no one has the "final" word as everyone has a different opinion and people need to respect that. What is ethical for some, isnt ethical for others.

 

[dancinglight]

Fair enough. astro teacher.

I'm curious, though, about the implications of an astrologer giving an ideal time, the birth being done at that time, and the baby being extremely ill or dying. What responsibility does the astrologer hold for that?

I think that astrologers have to be very careful in situations such as this.

I've taken an introductory astrology course from a professional astrologer who has been on the executive of ISAR for many years. As part of their certification process, a course in ethics is mandatory. Professional astrologers are counselors (often of troubled people at crossroads in their life) and if there weren't ethical principles to follow, they might not be working in the best interests of their clients.

I guess I'm also concerned about the autonomy of the infant. I'll admit, I'm biased, having seen firsthand when things go very wrong with 'elective' birth times and the baby is critically ill. I'd like to think that even though the baby is very tiny and helpless, he or she knows best when to enter the world. I'm glad you believe that too.

 

[astro.teacher]

I'm curious, though, about the implications of an astrologer giving an ideal time, the birth being done at that time, and the baby being extremely ill or dying. What responsibility does the astrologer hold for that?

The Astrologer provides information, it is up to the client whether or not they will use it, regardless of the situation. If they use this information, knowing the risks, then it is simply their responsibility. The same situation can be seen in a lot of areas of our society. If someone were to have cancer, and the doctor recommended they get chemotherapy to treat it, if something where to happen, either they developed major complications or died, whos responsibility is it? Very few people woould blame the doctor, even though he provided something much worse than a birth time, he perscribed a poison! The medical field is full of ethical considerations, yet not once has the ethnicality of a doctors perscribing of poison to "cure" been called into question. This is because the patient knows the risks and accepts them (in fact they sign their life off on it!). In our case, the client is given the information they requested, whether or not they choose to undertake their desire (if it is even probable, which I know from experience in other electional undertakings its highly unlikely), is their decision and their risk. It will never stop people from asking about it though. I know that if someone were to come to me with an Astrological question, and I were to say "I cannot answer that, its an ethical issue" or "You cant ask questions like that in Astrology" they would pass on me and go to the next Astrologer until they found someone who answered their question, or provided information that debilitates their presumption.

I think that astrologers have to be very careful in situations such as this.

You are right, only very talented Astrologers should deal with sensitive issues as these. However, most Astrologers believe they are talented in their own rights and therefore undertake this arrogantly and rashly.

I'm biased, having seen firsthand when things go very wrong with 'elective' birth times and the baby is critically ill. I'd like to think that even though the baby is very tiny and helpless, he or she knows best when to enter the world. I'm glad you believe that too.

Electional Astrology that involves variables that cannot be controled can never go well and any Astrologer who is proficient in this field can tell the client exactly that.You are right, it puts the baby in danger, but parents put their children in danger everyday without realizing it, especially pregnant mothers.

 

[Jilly]

caesearians

From what I know of them, I am with AG. It is not just a cut reach in and pull out baby. No, all your organs have to be lifted up onto your stomach to get into the baby, and this leaves you wide wide open to infections. If you get into trouble with a caesearian,you can very easily DIE...leaving the child Motherless. Is it really worth all that??

The only exception I personally would have had is if doing this would have saved the child being born a Leo. That I just could not suffer

 

[dancinglight]

:rotflmao "very few people would blame the doctor".


You're definitely NOT in the medical field.


Well, you've described your 'out' (electional astrology is dependent on variables AND the client uses the information at their own risk). What bothers me is that you would answer an "unethical" question simply because the person would 'astrologer shop" until they get their answer. Why participate in something that isn't ethical to do?

I don't think it is ethical to propose a birth time OR predict death OR publically post someone else's birth chart OR do a public synastry without permission....plus all the other questionable stuff that all too often goes on in an astrological forum. I'm not being critical of this forum, I've read the forum rules and they address pretty well all of this.

 

[astro.teacher]

What bothers me is that you would answer an "unethical" question simply because the person would 'astrologer shop" until they get their answer.

Please read my posts carefully before responding. I never once said I would be constrained to answer a query because I feared that they would get their answer from another source. I said that if I do not answer their question adequately, and in this case, explain the complications of electional Astrology to the querent and its unpractibility (regardless of its moral or ethical implications), giving them a generic "its not ethical" response, they would go to another source.

Why participate in something that isn't ethical to do?

I don't think it is ethical to propose a birth time OR predict death OR publically post someone else's birth chart OR do a public synastry without permission

Exactly, -YOU- dont think its ethical, it doesnt mean that everyone agrees, hence why we have a forum to discuss and attain opinions from everyone. Some people feel its ethical, others feel its unethical, its up to the Astrologer to tell what he feels is right. No dogma is going to cause someone to believe something is ethnical or not.

 

[aquarius7000]

A request!

Please ALL,

Perhaps it's time and best to end this matter here. I think we really have enough of both sides of the argument now, and I fear that the posts seem to be taking a slightly 'different' turn gradually.

Thank you for your cooperation
aquarius7000

 

[holly]

Re: caesearians

If you get into trouble with a caesearian,you can very easily DIE...leaving the child Motherless. Is it really worth all that??

But don't forget that natural births are extremely risky as well, and can also lead to death. I've heard that many horror birth stories that ended with, "After x many hours in labour, if the doctor didn't perform an emergency C-Section, I would have died." to last me a life time. So you can easily ask "Is it really worth all that??" of a natural birth and opt straight for an elective cesearian.

 

[EJ53]

....If I have any influence on this at all?

I read this as "if something unexpected happens and I therefore have to decide....." rather than an attempt to produce a designer baby.

....Exactly, -YOU- dont think its ethical, it doesnt mean that everyone agrees...

Astrologically, this is the crux of the whole debate on this thread - and the key to it is "objectivity", or the need to recognise the extent to which conditioning influences our views/decisions/emotions.

In particular, those who feel a need to use emotive examples and "external sources of expertise" to make their points need to consider closely whether the stated view is truly "their own" - having been consciously (rather than subconsciously) adopted by them after careful thought.

However, this has been a healthy and worthwhile debate of the concerns involved - regardless of where each of us stand upon the issue of ethics.

EJ

 

[AquariusT]

Are we not guided to pick that forced birthtime to ensure the karma of the child is what it is written to be? How can you say we are not? Can it not be that perhaps the chart the child is supposed to have, is the one we pick?

 

[archergirl]

I think you all are thinking too much about it, and making it complicated.

Elective caesarians, if it is only a matter of convenience, should be avoided purely from a medical perspective IMO - regardless of karma and whatnot. Caesarians are surgery, and whilst some people seem quite happy to go under the knife to straighten out their eyelids, I would remind you that caesarians are a *major* surgery, involving very deep incisions through many muscle layers AND a set of internal organs whose functions are crucial.

If the querent is having complications- preeclampsia or a ruptured placenta, and needs to have a date set, then that is something else entirely: the mother AND baby are at risk. An elective caesarian might be the wisest thing in this case. It is still surgery, and still has huge risks, infection being the smallest of them. Yes, yes, childbirth 'the regular way' also has risks, but unless you live in Botswana in a hut miles from any doctor, (in which case it is doubtful you have internet access), these risks are much smaller than those of surgery. After all, women have been giving birth 'the normal way' for about 4.2 million years.

The way this querent has put the question, there is no background information, no 'I've had a difficult pregnancy and need to choose a date for the baby to come out; the doctor has given me a rough timescale'. What she has provided is her Ascendant, Sun, and Moon signs, and those of her husband, and a due date for a natural birth.

From my perspective her question is aimed more at getting a baby who is compatible with the parents, rather than an urgent need to pick a date. Read between the lines, since there was so little other information given.

AG

 

[EJ53]

I think you all are thinking too much about it, and making it complicated......From my perspective her question is aimed more at getting a baby who is compatible with the parents, rather than an urgent need to pick a date. Read between the lines, since there was so little other information given.

As always AG, you're talking sense here - but, maybe you are "feeling" too much about it when you read between the lines. You may or may not be right and you may or may not be objective - but we should "read between the lines" to judge the intent of others only if we are sure that we are both right and objective.

EJ

 

[Lissa]

Camilla,

Your baby will be born when he has to be born.If September12th is the due date,September12th will be;if he decides to come on some other time,so be it.Give your baby the biggest proof of love by allowing to take his time and come out once he feels ready.A baby's first contact with the world is a violent thing,really;he should be able to do it only when he feels ready,or when his staying inside your body becomes dangerous for both you and him.

I understand you are worried that he may not fit with your husband's personality and yours,but,wherever there is love,and the willingness to handle the issues that may arise,there is the possibility of making things work...even if your baby turns out to be a wacky airy little being who acts like an earth quake to your earthy/watery eyes!

May the three of you have all the happiness in the world!

Cheers,
Lissa

 

[aquarius7000]

Give your baby the biggest proof of love by allowing to take his time and come out once he feels ready.A baby's first contact with the world is a violent thing,really;he should be able to do it only when he feels ready,or when his staying inside your body becomes dangerous for both you and him.

Words of gold there, which I'd like to 'freeze forever' in my post here. Thanks Lissa for these beautiful thought-provoking words, and I'm sure the mum-to-be will appreciate them, too.

Best
aquarius7000