Hardly Strictly Astrology: The Ugly Side of the Age of Aquarius

Edrek

Active member
@david starling
George Carlin's "God loves You. And he needs money!" PERFECT!! For some reason, I was not able to open the YouTube link in your post until after I had already posted about the materialism of today's religion. This video makes my point better than I could. Thank you!!

Carlin was probably the most brilliant satirist of our time - not only hysterically funny, but also intelligent, insightful, and skillful. He perfectly fits the Ig Nobel Prize definition of excellent satire: "First make people laugh, and then make them think." He always left a smart person thinking seriously after the laughing was over.(It's an unpardonable crime that he was never awarded the Ig Nobel Prize.)
 

Edrek

Active member
Earth's movements include Precession of the Perihelion, the basis for the tropical Ages. The sidereal Ages are based on the FAR more obvious Precession of the Equinox. The sidereal Precession of the Perihelion completes its 360° cycle in 112,000 calendar years with direct motion, which results in a 360° direct change in position of the Point of Perihelion in the tropical zodiac every 21,600 calendar years. That's an average tropical Age length of 1,800 years,
I finally get it!!! :geek: I had to agree with your suggesting that Capricorn vibes (pure and undiluted) could explain the "Greed Is Good" materialism of the present time, with the wealthiest 1% hoarding more money than the entire middle 60% combined, their wealth still skyrocketing while everyone else's is stagnating or they're struggling financially or homeless. This is not characteristically Aquarius, the Egalitarian.

But I still consider the ways that the world's materialism is handled now -- with fiat money that exists only in electronic form, with cryptocurrency and communications involving technology that I can no longer begin to get my head around, with AI, and by eccentric, unpredictable people (too many to list) -- very Aquarian in nature.

Thus, I've been studying the Precession of the Perihelion, which is indeed well into Capricorn, and I now accept that Capricorn appears to be a valid "overlay" modifying the increasing vibrations of the Age of Aquarius. I think that the Capricorn "coloring" over Aquarius is further supported by the predicted gross materialism near the end of Kali Yuga. So it seems that we're in a formidable conjuncture of three powerful cosmic events!

It appears that the Precession of the Perihelion is much harder to keep track of than the Precession of the Equinoxes, not being a regular progression, but rather a very irregular one, including retrogrades, which takes astronomical mathematicians to even estimate for the long term. I've added the amount of time between each pair of perihelions:

PERIHELION, 2024-2028
January 2, 2024 @ 18:38
367 days, 12 hours, 50 minutes
January 4, 2025 @ 07:28
364 days, 3 hours, 47 minutes
January 3, 2026 @ 11:15
364 days, 9 hours, 17 minutes
January 2, 2027 @ 20:32
367 days, 9 hours, 56 minutes
January 5, 2028 @ 06:28

"Due to variations in the eccentricity of the Earth's orbit, the dates when the Earth reaches its perihelion are not fixed. In 1246, the December Solstice was on the same day that the Earth reached its perihelion. Since then, the perihelion has drifted by a day every 58 years. In the short-term, the dates can vary up to two days from one year to another. Mathematicians and astronomers estimate that in 6430, over 4000 years from now, the perihelion will coincide with the March [0° Aries] equinox."

Would love to have your comments!
 
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david starling

Well-known member
I finally get it!!! :geek: I had to agree with your suggesting that Capricorn vibes (pure and undiluted) could explain the "Greed Is Good" materialism of the present time, with the wealthiest 1% hoarding more money than the entire middle 60% combined, their wealth still skyrocketing while everyone else's is stagnating or they're struggling financially and/or homeless. This is not characteristically Aquarius, the Egalitarian.

But I still consider the ways that the world's materialism is handled now -- with fiat money that exists only in electronic form, with cryptocurrency and communications involving technology that I can no longer begin to get my head around, with AI, and by eccentric, unpredictable people (too many to list) -- very Aquarian in nature.

Thus, I've been studying the Precession of the Perihelion, which is indeed well into Capricorn, and I now accept that Capricorn appears to be a valid "overlay" modifying the increasing vibrations of the Age of Aquarius. I think that the Capricorn "coloring" over Aquarius is further supported by the predicted gross materialism near the end of Kali Yuga. So it seems that we're in a formidable conjuncture of three powerful cosmic events!

@david, it appears that the Precession of the Perihelion is much harder to keep track of than the Precession of the Equinoxes, not being a regular progression, but rather a very irregular one, including retrogrades, which takes astronomical mathematicians to even estimate for the long term. I've added the amount of time between each pair of perihelions:

PERIHELION, 2024-2028
January 2, 2024 @ 18:38
367 days, 12 hours, 50 minutes
January 4, 2025 @ 07:28
364 days, 3 hours, 47 minutes
January 3, 2026 @ 11:15
364 days, 9 hours, 17 minutes
January 2, 2027 @ 20:32
367 days, 9 hours, 56 minutes
January 5, 2028 @ 06:28

"Due to variations in the eccentricity of the Earth's orbit, the dates when the Earth reaches its perihelion are not fixed. In 1246, the December Solstice was on the same day that the Earth reached its perihelion. Since then, the perihelion has drifted by a day every 58 years. In the short-term, the dates can vary up to two days from one year to another. Mathematicians and astronomers estimate that in 6430, over 4000 years from now, the perihelion will coincide with the March [0° Aries] equinox."

Would love to have your comments!
 

david starling

Well-known member
"Oscillation" - plus and minus ~ 2° maximum from a "mean" setting in this case. I've calculated the mean setting as located at 13° tropical Capricorn at Perihelion in 2033. The mean setting of the Point of Perihelion constantly changes directly 1.1 minutes of arc per year through the tropical zodiac. In1975 it reached 12° tropical Capricorn. Each degree matters, at 58.1 years per degree.
 
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Opal

Premium Member
It's disquieting how little secular media attention has been given to this troubling resurgence of such a barbaric ritual. I managed to find only one stray mainstream news story left on the internet (there are plenty of Christian and Jewish religious articles in support of it, however):
"...you have to look back almost 2,000 years in the tumultuous history of the Middle East, when the ancient Romans destroyed the last temple in Jerusalem [in 70 AD]. To rebuild it, fervent believers point to the Bible's Book of Numbers, which commands the Israelites to offer "a red heifer without defect or blemish and that has never been under a yoke.... Finding the red heifers took years. The quest led Mamo [Yitshak Mamo, of Uvne Jerusalem, a group committed to seeing a new temple built in Jerusalem's Old City] not to Jewish breeders but to Christian ranchers thousands of miles away. 'After a long search, we found them in Texas,' he said. 'Texas red angus.' To bypass strict laws in place at the time that banned the export of U.S. cattle to Israel, the heifers were classified as pets, Mamo said with a laugh. But to those following biblical commandments, the cows are no laughing matter, he added, stressing that it was no publicity stunt....while they're classed as pets, there are no plans to let the red heifers live out long happy lives. A massive white altar awaits, where they are to be burned on a plot of land overlooking the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem. Mamo said the ceremony must be performed looking directly into where the ancient Second Temple stood..."

Those planning to sacrifice these cows say that this is a uniquely Judaic obligation to Jehovah. However, the ritual sacrificing of cattle has been a practice of so-called pagan religions going back to the beginning of the Age of Aries (circa 2100 BCE) and persisting through the transitional period into the Age of Pisces, The religious fervor of many cults seemed determined to sacrifice (i.e. "wipe out") the qualities of the old Age of Taurus. For example:
  • The Ancient Greek Hecatombs, in which 12 to 100 cattle were slaughtered in ritual sacrifice to the Greek gods. This bloody ceremony was first described by Homer in the Iliad: --see Wikipedia, "Hecatomb"
  • The Greco-Roman Cult of Mithra, from the 1st to the 4th century AD. whose iconography always depicted Mithra killing a bull --see Wikipedia, "Tauroctony" and "Mithraism"
  • "The [pagan] religious practices of the Roman Empire from the 2nd to 4th centuries included the taurobolium, in which a bull was sacrificed for the well-being of the people and the state." --see Wikipedia, "Sacred Bull"
  • "Pliny the Elder, writing in the first century AD, describes a religious ceremony in Gaul in which white-clad Druids climbed a sacred oak, cut down the mistletoe growing on it, sacrificed two white bulls, and used the mistletoe to cure infertility." --see Wikipedia, "Sacred Bull"
  • "The practice of bullfighting in the Iberian Peninsula and southern France is connected with the legends of Saturnin of Toulouse and his protégé in Pamplona, Fermin. These are inseparably linked to bull-sacrifices by the vivid manner of their martyrdoms set by Christian hagiography in the third century." --see Wikipedia, "Sacred Bull"
It is significant astrologically, that cow/bull cults that developed before or at the end of the Age of Taurus sought to preserve the lives of the sacred cows rather than sacrifice them. For example, the Hindu sacred cows and the Ancient Egyptian Apis bull worship ("The Apis bull normally died of old age. However, some believe that if the bull was old and unable to fulfill his function, priests would hasten his departure by drowning him. After the bulls’ death...a sixty-day national mourning was observed, in which Egyptians had their heads shaved and abstained from eating meat"). It's interesting that during the Exodus, the Jewish people made and worshipped a golden calf,* the last of their devotion to the old Age of Taurus.

* NB: Reflecting the fact that the Vernal Equinox moves backwards through the Sidereal constellation of an Age, the symbolism of that Age starts with the mature form of the Sidereal constellation and progresses into the infant form. Thus, the aged Apis bull ends up as the Golden Calf; the mature ram-headed god Amun who had risen to the top of the Egyptian pantheon in the 21st century BCE and the Golden Fleece of Greece are replaced by Jesus as the "Lamb of God" (an infant ram at 0° Aries), who transforms into the Fisherman of Men (a mature form of Pisces at its inception). Now at the end of the Age of Pisces, we have minnow-sized bumper stickers on cars to advertise one's Christianity and baby fish dying by the thousands in our warming, toxic oceans before they reach maturity. (This reminds me of a heart-rending movie about aging backwards, The Curious Case of Benjamin Button.)

Edrek
Hey Edrek!

Well written, well said. Death of an age, birth of another.

This is the myth of the death of Hercules(Leo), bitten by the Crab, on the ankle or foot where the constellations meet.

 

Opal

Premium Member
Some of the things from Talmud, which is the main authority in Judaism, would be quite shocking to average Christian. Nevertheless, it seems that (western) Christians support it.

I don't belong to any religious group, so I try to look at things objectively. It seems that religion is playing a huge role in events that are unfolding at the end of this Age, despite claims that we are living in "modern materialistic society". I would even go that far to say that the main motivation of secular leaderships of the main geopolitical players in the world is religious agenda.
The politicians have astrologers too. They are aware of the changing tides, and would use them to control, the masses, by directing the show, to what they know will be.

I have mentioned this before, Water is now a huge commodity. Warehoused. The air sign “water bearer” allows the waters to flow freely.
 

Cap

Well-known member
When talking about Yugas and "materialism" I think it is important to understand that references to materialism in Yuga descriptions are actually references to level of awareness of the true nature of this reality.

More awareness = less materialism

In descriptions of Satya Yuga we often have stories that in Satya Yuga people could manipulate reality through the power of their will, therefore there was no work, no castes or classes, no separation on rich and poor.

Most people experience lucid dream at least once in their lifetime. If you experienced it, then you know from your own experience what I'm describing. In lucid dream you are aware that it is a dream. And you have "god-like" powers, you can manipulate your dream in whatever way you like.

This is similar to conditions in Satya Yuga. In Satya Yuga people are more aware of dream-like nature of this reality. Therefore, they are able to manipulate reality, at least to some extent. Since they are aware of dream-like quality of this reality, obvious consequence is that they are not interested in pursuing goals inside this reality. After all, what would be the purpose if this all is not real? They are drawn to pursuit of their own true nature, which is the only real thing.

This is why Satya Yuga is depicted as most spiritual and least material Yuga. It's all about awareness.
 

Cap

Well-known member
Well, I guess what I had always thought was a lucid dream was actually not. :unsure:

While driving a U-Haul truck for 12 hours straight, moving to a new city and job, I "saw" a dream start playing like a video in my mind while my eyes were still seeing the highway. The dream was peculiar and WTF like most of my dreams. But I could not stop this "inner movie" from playing! I couldn't manipulate the screenplay either! I was more like Prometheus chained to a rock - not an omnipotent god - I had no choice but to watch the eagle eat my liver, so to speak.

I have heard credible people say they could control their lucid dreaming just as you say, so I guess I should refer to mine as a hallucination from now on.
No, that was not a lucid dream. Lucid dream is pretty much the same as "waking reality". All senses function the same, objects are solid, snow is wet and cold on touch, you hear sounds and taste aromas and experience smell. Only it feels a little bit more "real", everything is a bit brighter, colors are more lively. At the same time you are aware it is a dream and you can manipulate it as you wish.

There are easy techniques how to induce lucid dreams or it can come spontaneously as a byproduct of meditation.
Other than being a sort of "playground" lucid dreams have no spiritual value except they can teach you to question the reality of so called "waking life".
In essence, people are experiencing short dreams during sleep and one long dream during "waking time" which apparently continues where it previously stopped and consider short dreams as unreal and long dream as real. In reality, there is no difference between these two.
 

david starling

Well-known member
"Oscillation" - plus and minus ~ 2° from a "mean" setting in this case. I've calculated the mean setting as located at 13° tropical Capricorn at Perihelion in 2033. The mean setting of the Point of Perihelion constantly changes directly 1.1 minutes of arc per year through the tropical zodiac. In1975 it reached 12° tropical Capricorn. Each degree matters, at 58.1 years per degree.
There's a maximum "+" oscillation every twelve to fourteen years. The year 2020 was one, and the current world power-structure reacted with massive deployment of 5G radiation; the "Plandemic" and governmental overreach and powergrabs; along with announcements of an economic "Great Reset". There will probably be another backlash in 2033.
 
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Cap

Well-known member
There's a maximum "+" oscillation every twelve to fourteen years. The year 2020 years was one, and the current world power-structure reacted with massive deployment of 5G radiation; the "Plandemic" and governmental overreach and powergrabs; along with announcements of an economic "Great Reset". There will probably be another backlash in 2033.
According to Dr. Fuellmich's investigation, the plandemic was initially planned to happen many decades later. But, for some reason, the elites have decided to speed up their plans.
If you combine this knowledge with the fact that elites are building underground bunkers like crazy and that money is being printed like there's no tomorrow (which would only make sense if there really is no tomorrow), it is obvious that elites have some crucial information unavailable to the public. There's going to be some kind of catastrophe, probably something will hit Earth from space.
 

passiflora

Well-known member
According to Dr. Fuellmich's investigation, the plandemic was initially planned to happen many decades later. But, for some reason, the elites have decided to speed up their plans.
If you combine this knowledge with the fact that elites are building underground bunkers like crazy and that money is being printed like there's no tomorrow (which would only make sense if there really is no tomorrow), it is obvious that elites have some crucial information unavailable to the public. There's going to be some kind of catastrophe, probably something will hit Earth from space.
Doesn't seem like you have to go that far. The elites are just not constrained by the things that have always constrained humans, so in a way their civilization, which is a series of constraints, has already collapsed.
 

Cap

Well-known member
Doesn't seem like you have to go that far. The elites are just not constrained by the things that have always constrained humans, so in a way their civilization, which is a series of constraints, has already collapsed.
Elites are very much alive and kicking. So far, everything is going according to plan for them.

Plandemic was a huge success for elites. Whatever was inside those "mRNA vaccines" has been injected into 75% of world population and it is now spreading by itself from vaccinated to unvaccinated.
Land grab and artificially engineered food crisis are in progress.
Climate propaganda is all over the place. It will be important factor to constrain liberties of people worldwide.

Even things in Ukraine are going well. They never really expected for Ukraine to defeat Russia. Whatever is current death ratio, most likely 10:1, it is "success" because they only count Russian deaths. They couldn't care less for Ukrainians, it is a sort of "free jackpot spin".
Russia is not all powerful, it is under huge pressure, and elites will only increase pressure on Russia.
Nukes are not magical wonder weapon that can scare or stop elites.
Probably all sides involved have secret weapons they count on to make decisive difference.

It is crucial for elites to take down Russia first because dealing with China is too risky if Russia is not under control.
In the rest of the world they have everything under control.

True, maybe elites are not preparing for impact from space. Maybe they are just preparing for economic collapse. Impact from space is one of the rare catastrophes that can be predicted precisely almost to the minute, if you have the data.
IF there is impact from space coming it is very logical for elites to speed up all agendas because who knows what will be situation after impact. That also goes for all military goals. They cannot predict what will be the state of society after such event, economics, government, military, etc. So we are going to see a lot of activity in all areas IF such event is coming.
 

Edrek

Active member
Doesn't seem like you have to go that far. The elites are just not constrained by the things that have always constrained humans, so in a way their civilization, which is a series of constraints, has already collapsed.
I wouldn't say that the civilization of the elite has actually collapsed at this point, but rather, it is rapidly transforming into a technology-based plutocratic feudalism, still a form of "civilization" (as in "social structure"), even though a dystopic one — e.g., Medieval Europe.

However, the Medieval plutocracy (with extreme wealth and power disparity) gradually eroded, with events such as the signing of the Magna Carta and the efflorescence of the Renaissance.

A similar renaissance — the "Golden Age of Greece" and its renowned experiment with democracy — occurred after the collapse of the plutocratic Mycenaean culture had plunged Mediterranean civilization into the so-called "Greek Dark Ages" (c.1050 - c.750 BCE), which surprisingly coincides roughly with Hindu scholar Bidhu Dev Misra's estimates of the 300-year transition period between the descending Kali Yuga and the ascending Kali Yuga that we are supposedly living in now — "ascending" in this case meaning more sophisticated, not necessarily more benign.

The corrupt, plutocratic, non-egalitarian Gilded Age (c.1870 - c.1900), centered in the U.S., was shut down by WW I and the deadly flu pandemic, with a brief rebound in the Roaring Twenties, only to totally collapse in 1929 into the Great Depression, followed by WW II.

Take a look at these excellent, well-informed BBC articles from just a few years ago. These are non-esoteric, history-based analyses:
Note that the second article isolates this sentence for emphasis: "Disaster comes when elites push society toward instability and eventual collapse by hoarding huge quantities of wealth and resources." And remember that currently the elite 1% have more wealth than the entire middle 60% combined.
CNN / Business Insider / USA Today / Bloomberg <—(can sign up for free temp. subscription to read this last one)

It seems that contemporary elites might want to consider how the same course that they are pursuing now repeatedly turned out in the past. The disaster of the masses will inevitably become their disaster, too. But in close pursuit (one hopes), Aquarius the Egalitarian will be growing stronger as the Vernal Equinox continues to move toward the cusp of that Sidereal Constellation.

Edrek
 
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Cap

Well-known member
A similar renaissance — the "Golden Age of Greece" and its renowned experiment with democracy — occurred after the collapse of the plutocratic Mycenaean culture had plunged Mediterranean civilization into the so-called "Greek Dark Ages" (c.1050 - c.750 BCE), which surprisingly coincides roughly with Hindu scholar Bidhu Dev Misra's estimates of the 300-year transition period between the descending Kali Yuga and the ascending Kali Yuga that we are supposedly living in now — "ascending" in this case meaning more sophisticated, not necessarily more benign.

Mainstream ancient history is completely wrong. Mycenaean and Minoan culture have nothing to do with Greeks. Story of Troy is not about Greeks either (Homer was not a Greek). In the excavation layers corresponding to the time of "War of Troy" not single Greek DNA skeleton has been found, dominant DNA haplogroup is I2a which is the same haplogroup of Vinca Culture and still today dominant among modern day inhabitants of Balkans (today called Southern Slavs).

Just a quick glance at "Obelisk from Xanthos" (around 8th century BC) is enough to see that alphabet used is almost exact modern day Cyrillic which derives from Vinca alphabet. Vinca alphabet already had 26 out of 30 letters used in modern day Serbian Cyrillic.

Xanthos is a later Greek name, city was originally called Sirbina.

Obelisk-iz-Ksantosa-Sirbina-i-pitanje-odakle-su-Srbi-750x424.jpg


Greeks came to the Balkans from Egypt (around 1500 BC). They lived as a minority among locals (whom they called Pelasgians) for many centuries. "Pelasgians" derives from the word "Pelag" which was used by the locals for Mediterranean Sea. Usually, Olympic Games are taken for the first trace of distinctively Greek culture but this was actually Minoan burial custom (original Minoan culture was also I2a haplogroup and they also used Vinca Cyrillic alphabet). Few centuries later, at the height of Greek culture, we are talking about few city-kingdoms at the most south of Peloponnese peninsula. In the Greek thinking of that time, there is no other kind of state envisioned other than a city-state. Alexander the Great, who established huge empire, was of course not Greek but Macedonian (southern Slav). His real name was Lesandar Karanovic.
 

Edrek

Active member
A similar renaissance — the "Golden Age of Greece" and its renowned experiment with democracy — occurred after the collapse of the plutocraticMycenaean culture had plunged Mediterranean civilization into the so-called "Greek Dark Ages" (c.1050 - c.750 BCE),​
Mainstream ancient history is completely wrong. Mycenaean and Minoan culture have nothing to do with Greeks. Story of Troy is not about Greeks either (Homer was not a Greek). In the excavation layers corresponding to the time of "War of Troy" not single Greek DNA skeleton has been found, dominant DNA haplogroup is I2a which is the same haplogroup of Vinca Culture and still today dominant among modern day inhabitants of Balkans (today called Southern Slavs).
Just for the record, I didn't say that the Mycenaean or Minoan cultures had anything to do with Classical Greek culture. In fact, the so-called "Greek Dark Ages" obliterated most Minoan and Mycenaean culture well before the Greek Golden Age began. As far as genetics go, there's this:

The Mycenaeans were descendants of two European groups moving south from the Danube region - Ionians and Achaeans - and the Classical Greeks were yet a third related group from that region, referred to as the Dorians. I never mentioned Trojans (except indirectly as part of "Mediterranean culture", which could include Egyptians, Phoenicians, Etruscans, et al.). Yes, I agree that the Trojans were of some ethnicity other than Greek—the origin of their mostly lost language remains totally unknown, but the very little evidence of writing found at Troy was not any form of Greek.

The Iliad was written in good archaic or "epic" Greek and the writer(s) used poetic license in letting the reader assume that all the characters spoke the same language - which is extremely unlikely. Saying Homer was not Greek is ultimately pointless since nobody is sure if "Homer" even existed! That may have been a fictitious name assigned to a compilation of tales done by who knows whom or how many. Kinda like "Ossian" in British lit.

Greeks came to the Balkans from Egypt (around 1500 BC). They lived as a minority among locals (whom they called Pelasgians) for many centuries.
That the Greeks lived among locals whom they called Pelasgians is quite correct. However, to say the Greeks came to the Balkans from Egypt??? That's the first time in my life I've ever heard that one! Please post any sources on that. I find that impossible to even ponder for the following reasons:

First, having taught historical linguistics for decades, I can assure you that Ancient Greek was a purely Indo-European language, and it shares many grammatical and lexical features with other Indo-European languages:
English​
Ancient Greek​
Latin​
Finnish (non-Indo-European)
father
πατέρ (pater)
pater
isä
mother
μητέρ (meter)
mater
äiti
brother
φατέρ (phrater) = "kinsman"
frater
veli
knowledge
γνῶσις, (gnosis)
cognitio
tietoa
star
αστέρι (astéri)
stella
tähti

Second, Ancient Greek literature shows no vestiges whatsoever of any influence from Ancient Egyptian, which is related to Arabic and Hebrew, and TOTALLY different from Greek, lexically, grammatically, and phonologically.

To explain: Whenever a people live surrounded by speakers of a different language, their own language is always affected by the "host language" to some obvious degree; for example, TexMex - the Spanglish that is spoken all along the Texas-Mexico border (I am very familiar with this dialect as I was born there and TexMex was actually my first language as a child! I spoke a 50/50 mix of English and Spanish until I was 4 or 5!). Another example is Yiddish, a German-Hebrew hybrid language that evolved in Jewish communities that had been in Germany for centuries.

So to state that the Greeks c1712178920989.jpegame to Europe after living among the Egyptians - fluently speaking a very complex, distinctly Indo-European language?? With no traces of Egyptian influence?? That's linguistically preposterous!

The Greeks did go to Egypt after Alexander the Great died and one of his generals, Ptolemy, assumed control of the Egyptian portion of the empire. The Ptolemaic Dynasty he founded was exceptionally insular, and rather incestuous (not unusual in Egypt), to secure the Ptolemies' exclusive sovereignty and not have it jeopardized by marriages to former Egyptian nobility. All their public addresses were in Greek, requiring an interpreter to translate into Egyptian for the masses. The first Ptolemy to learn the local language was also the last active monarch of Egypt - Cleopatra VII Philopator, who learned the language of her subjects and openly embraced the ancient gods, religion, and babies of Egypt to win the absolute support of her people. And she got it. (Thus setting a successful precedent for Elizabeth I many centuries later!) I always like to shock people who say Elizabeth Taylor playing Cleopatra was a "whitewashing of history" by replying to them that Liz was perfectly cast, and then proving to them that Cleo was actually not even Egyptian - she was a Macedonian - many times over (after almost four centuries of endogamous marriages among the Ptolemies).

Alexander the Great, who established huge empire, was of course not Greek but Macedonian (southern Slav). His real name was Lesandar Karanovic.
I found only one coherent mention of this. A video of an Iranian sitting in his living room droning on about the Seleucid Empire. A WTF moment. To the present day, "Karanović" is a Southern Slavic surname meaning "native of Karanovo" - which is modern Bulgaria. Not quite Macedonia. But the important thing that blows this out of the water is that in Alexander's day, Macedonia to Greece was sorta like modern Scotland to England. The majority didn't speak a totally different language (i.e. Slavic) at that time, but rather a dialect or sister language of Greek. Here's some scholarly Wikipedia to refute. (I don't have time to scan and upload pages from my textbooks.) However, I am aware that many modern Slavic Macedonians have completely co-opted Alexander the Great as their national hero - and that's fine. It's a tiny country. They deserve some self-esteem, some national pride. DNA match or not.
 
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Cap

Well-known member
I found only one coherent mention of this. A video of an Iranian sitting in his living room droning on about the Seleucid Empire. A WTF moment. To the present day, "Karanović" is a Southern Slavic surname meaning "native of Karanovo" - which is modern Bulgaria. Not quite Macedonia. But the important thing that blows this out of the water is that in Alexander's day, Macedonia to Greece was sorta like modern Scotland to England. The majority didn't speak a totally different language (i.e. Slavic) at that time, but rather a dialect or sister language of Greek. Here's some scholarly Wikipedia to refute. (I don't have time to scan and upload pages from my textbooks.) However, I am aware that many modern Slavic Macedonians have completely co-opted Alexander the Great as their national hero - and that's fine. It's a tiny country. They deserve some self-esteem, some national pride. DNA match or not.
Not everything in my post was direct response to your statements. My point was that Mycenaean and Minoan cultures were not Greek and we agree on that.

Concerning Alexander,

surname "Karanović" is not connected with the place Karanovo but with the word "Karan". Karan was a title among ancient southern Slavs (Serbs) meaning "ruler" or denoting high social status. Since Greeks were unable to pronounce "ć" sound they always substituted surname endings "ić" with "ides".
So Alexansander's surname was written Karanides by the Greeks, his mother's surname Eakides (actually Eakić).
And also Alexander (Alexandros) is hellenized version of ancient Slavic name Lesandar. "Les" or "lesna" is Slavic word for forest, still in use in some Slavic languages. "Dar" means gift, still today. So, translation of the name is "gift from the forest". It is not unusual for Slavic names to end with "dar" (gift), for example name Božidar (translation, gift from god).

True, Macedonia was under Greek cultural influence and quite hellenized but Macedonians were not ethnic Greeks. Also, Macedonia was a kingdom while at the same time Greeks had only city-states. Historically, river Pineios on the southern side of Mount Olympus was the north border of Greek territories in ancient times. Modern Greek state claims on Macedonia are purely geopolitical and started with the dissolution of Yugoslavia, since Macedonia is now weak and not part of powerful country.
When Filip II, Macedonian king, defeated Greek cities, most notably in the battle of Chaeronea, where he defeated city-states of Athens and Thebes, his idea was to unify small Greek city-states who were constantly in quarrel with each other and add Greeks to his military might in order to attempt the conquest of Persia. This was accepted by the Greeks and they decided to cooperate. But Filip died and it was up to his son Alexander to carry out these plans.

According to Quintus Rufus, Alexander was eager to repeat great feat of god Bacchus (Nino Belov) whom he considered his kinsman, whose conquest happened around 2000 BC. Rufus adds that in India Alexander learned about another conquest that also started from the Balkans, conquest of Serbo Makeridov (called Heracles by the Greeks) that happened around 1330 BC. According to Quintus Rufus, Alexander learned this from his kinsmen who were descendants of sick and wounded from Serbo Makeridov's army and were left behind to stay in India. When he came to town called Naissus (Niš) in India he was greeted as the third to come from their country after Bacchus and Serbon.
Note that Greeks reffered to Nino Belov aka Bacchus, aka Nimrod, aka. Nebrod (he was from the tribe of Nebroda) as Dyonissus (meaning god - dio from Nissus - Niš). For them this was stuff of legends and became part of their mythology.
Droysen also says that Alexander believed to be Bacchus successor.
Plutarch says that Alexander originates from Heracles (Serbo Makeridov) who was the founder of Karan dynasty.
Paulus Orosius says that Alexander encountered Serbs in the Indus valley who declared their loyalty to him and accepted him as their rightful emperor and fellow kinsman.
It would be impossible for Alexander to be a Greek and at the same time kinsman of Bacchus (Nino Belov) and Serbon (Serbo Makeridov), especially because first 2 conquests happened way before Greeks established their state. More over, Greeks deny that these conquests ever happened or they simply don't know about them.
On top of that, we have Demostenes, who was very much against Filip II, who claimed Filip II was not Greek but "barbarian" and who was the fighter against Macedonian expansion. After Filip II's death, Demostenes played a key role in Greek uprising against Macedonians, although he was not successful.
 
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Cap

Well-known member
That the Greeks lived among locals whom they called Pelasgians is quite correct. However, to say the Greeks came to the Balkans from Egypt??? That's the first time in my life I've ever heard that one! Please post any sources on that. I find that impossible to even ponder...

As for the origin of Greeks,

not much is known for certain. In his writings Diodorus claims that Greeks came from Egypt around 1500 BC. Eusebius is also of the same opinion. There are several modern theories that use DNA evidence with similar claims. Modern Greeks differentiate from other inhabitants of Balkans with high percentage of E1b1 and J2 haplogroups. E1b1 haplogroup is connected with Egypt, found in some analyzed Egyptian mummies.
Then there's theory that Greeks originate from Hurites from the Cappadocia. During Nino Belov's conquest (2000 BC) they were incorporated in his army and left in Egypt. After Egyptians threw out both Jews and Hurites, Jews went back to Palestine and Hurites went to Peloponnese peninsula, via Crete.
 
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