Ever Chosen Between Possible Natal Charts?: Of Sabian Symbols and Fixed Stars

[Birch Dragon]

Dear Astrologers' Community,
I'm wondering if anyone's ever been faced with choosing between two compelling natal charts, or if anyone has anything to say about the conundrum?

When I first came onto this site one of the community's resident astrologers offered, out of sheer goodwill, to give my chart a quick rectification. The birth time I was working with came straight from a government-issued birth certificate. But as people on this site often emphasize, doctors aren't as interested in marking the exact birth moment as astrologers - and then there's probably a debate about what counts as the exact birth moment. So I took him up on it. Using about 8 meaningful dates from my life that stand out resoundingly, he found that my chart clearly made more "hits" to those dates if the birth time was pushed back five minutes. He told me of course that greater precision and certainty would require more testing out with more dates, but for the moment I have a second chart to think about and work with.

And now I'm torn. With a difference of only five minutes the only changes between charts are the house degrees. And yet, to my eyes they tell two different stories, especially if I consider Sabian Symbols (and since Dane Rudhyar's book on Sabian Symbols was one of the first books on astrology I ever read, I have a deep affection for them). Perhaps considering fixed stars as well. Hardly different, these charts nonetheless seem to tell the basic story of my planets and houses through two different framing themes - changing the way the overall story is read.
My problem is that both charts - both stories - have reasons to recommend them. I can resonate with both. But if we really can look at our chart and learn more and more about our selves and what trajectories we should be on in life - and if astrology really is an art of precision - then I want to know which chart I really should be focusing on.

Has anybody else ever faced this question, or have thoughts about how to face it? Do I make too much Sabian symbols and fixed stars? Is the difference negligible? Does it really even matter? Or must I choose now and choose wisely?!?!

I've attached both charts below.
In the next post I'm going to give more detail about the symbols and themes I see when I look at the two charts that make them, for me, two different frames for understanding my life - but frames I can't clearly choose between.



And as always, for any and all who respond: thanks for discussing and enlightening me on questions that, I worry, are ultimately pretty self-interested (or at least self-oriented).

 

[Birch Dragon]

So this second post is for anyone who's either genuinely interested in a story about Sabian symbols and trying to choose between two charts, or who wants to say something about my own decision before me (thank you! Appreciated!) and wants some more detail on how this choice is striking me.
Otherwise, you might want to skip it...


The opportunity for rectification came up in a thread I started where I was asking people about the lunar nodes (Well, about my lunar nodes) and when it came back it fit that discussion in a synchronous, neatly packaged, maybe even slightly scary way. On the other hand, I worry that I want the rectified chart to be right because the original, birth certificate-based chart strikes me as a chart in crisis: more urgent, more dramatic, more at stake...?

The Sabian symbol for the rectified chart is Virgo 14: AN ARISTOCRATIC FAMILY TREE. Rudhyar says of it, this symbol "characterizes the means for true "success." One returns to the roots in order to produce the flowering of personality, if this flower is to bring forth a living seed. ROOT POWER is essential to seed-achievement."
That's almost exactly the metaphor I've long used for the key life-lesson I tend to think my lunar nodes reflect. With NN in Cap in the 4th house, I see the lesson as the need to learn that in order to reach high and create grand, 10th house-type things, you have to build strong roots first, and then a strong tree from the roots up.
More, the emphasis is on building off of history, and relying on an aristocratic tradition. Now, I don't have an aristocratic background as far as I know, but for a living I do teach the history of ideas that built Western (and to a lesser degree Eastern) culture. Which again fits. As one commenter pointed out, with my IC in Sag it re-in forces the idea of a rooted-ness in human culture. (And "culture" is the keyword for Rudhyar's next symbol in the series...)

The Asc symbol for the original chart is Virgo 16: IN THE ZOO, CHILDREN ARE BROUGHT FACE TO FACE WITH AN ORANG-UTANG. The emphasis here is on our more humane aspects coming face-to-face with our more animal aspects. Human reason staring down our more basic, beastly instincts and desires. Rudyhar's keyword is "Karmic Confrontation."
This theme is more scary, and it feels amplified by the MC in this original chart, at Gemini 10: AN AIRPLANE PERFORMING A NOSE DIVE. The keyword is "Mind vs. Matter" and in both these symbols I think we see an urgent crisis that feels a bit like a fight or test to the death.
More, finally, I've discovered yesterday that in this original chart the IC/MC might be in direct alignment with axis of two key fixed stars, with Alderbaran at the MC and Antares at the IC. Now I don't know if this winds up being right or not, but a few sites I read last night noted that Alderbaran is at Gemini 9 degress and 47 minutes (with Antares right across from it at 9 degress 46 minutes of Sag). In the original chart my MC is Gemini 9 47. As I read it - and I know almost nothing of the fixed stars - Alderbaran is associated with the Cristian Archangel Michael, in a kind of cosmic battle with his opposite in the sky, Atares, at the dark "heart of Scorpio."

This original chart feels to me like it accentuates a more urgent, crisis bound life, making much of the chart's Pluto influence. And I can't deny that I feel that. We all, certainly, feel the tension between the higher and lower parts of our self as depicted in the symbol for Virgo 16. But I have to admit I have struggled for a long time - in a personal way I don't want to really post about - with deeper, limbic system-like "fight or flight" anxiety responses that can well up from within and totally overwhelm the higher functions of my brain. More, I worry deeply and, in my research, work on trying to face down humanity's capacity for violence and conflict. If my teaching is focused on the great, historic roots of Western civilization, my research and writings are on conflict and how to try and deal with it.

So... I feel like the rectified chart is a more neatly wound package. And it has the advantage of being rectified. But I worry that I want it to be the right chart because it gets me off the hook from what I read as a fairly crisis-oriented framework for reading my natal.
I can make arguments for and against both of these charts.
Any thoughts will be massively appreciated!

 

[greybeard]

The Sabian Symbols were originated by Elsie Wheeler (the mind-source of the images) and Marc Edmund Jones (the astrologer and commentator -- the originator of the project). I personally prefer Jones' work, The Sabian Symbols in Astrology, but I have and use as reference both Rudhyar and Jones. Also, I do not rely entirely on either author's commentaries, but let the images work in my own mind, and in reference to the chart at hand.

As far as the power of the Sabian Symbols goes, much of the time they are highly illuminating. We must keep in mind that they are images, and our own mind is capable of tricking us into thinking we see something that isn't there, or both symbols (in a case such as yours) may seem pertinent. I always approach their use with caution. They are more certain in the case of planets (which move slowly) and not so certain in the case of cusps (which change position minute by minute).

Moment of birth is considered by astrologers to be the moment of first inspiration, the First Breath. "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Gen. 2:7.

If you have had a rectification done by a competent astrologer -- and I'm quite sure the astrologer in question is highly qualified -- then I would accept the rectified chart as the correct one and proceed with confidence. If you will examine the literature with regard to rectification, you will see that "equally competent" astrologers may produce different times of birth for the same person. Although rectification is based on sound principles, the rectified chart is still "speculative". But if we find that it "works" with future events, then it is worth using. Life and the universe generally contain a certain measure of "uncertainty", and we have to live with that.

 

[dr. farr]

My OPINION, based on all you have written in your 2 posts, as considered in regard to the monomoiria of the 2 ascendant degrees (both planetary and sign monomoiria) and the stars connected with those 2 degrees, plus consideration of the star connections of the MC/IC points, is that the "closer in relevance" chart, is the first (unrectified) chart.

 

[Therese]

I know it sounds difficult, but maybe you should give it time. I mean, personally, when I am faced with a choice that I cannot make, my experience is that the best approach is to check whether there is indeed an urgency, and if I find that actually, no one's life is in danger, etc, then I start to wonder where this sense of urgency is coming from, and what it is exactly (mostly within myself) that is presenting me with an either this or that situation. Life is limited to a choice between either this or that only in very extreme cases. And even then, it's possible that the answer is both or something else entirely.

My natal chart is still tentative. I started with a chart based on my mother's memory and the course of events of the evening of my birth. That ascendant was Cancer 25: "A dark shadow or mantle thrown suddenly over the right shoulder". I think anyone who ever experienced being in touch with something greater than they are, would resonate to that. for me, this symbol talks about "mediating".

Then, I am helped with rectifying my chart, and it is still in process. The current ascendant is 12 Leo, "An evening lawn party". to me, this talks about sharing.

In the meantime, I requested my offical birth certificate from the hospital, though I know how sloppy they are with such data (someone told me they wanted to record her birth for the next day because she was born on a bank holiday and nobody bothered with administration, it was her mother that insisted they put the correct date). In that chart, the ascendant is at 16 Cancer "A man before a square with a manuscript scroll before him". Guess my associations about that symbol

Maybe it would be useful not to pick between 14 or 16 Virgo, Discard what anyone says about these symbols. Experiment with them. What if, just out of play, you tried to see them as talking about the same thing, each from a different perspective? what would that "thing" be?

Whatever it is, its importance in your life will not diminish if your ascendant has another Sabian symbol, or even a third or a fourth one...


ps: Lol, I made a mistake first, I opened an older version of my possible charts. There, the ascendant was 20 Leo "The Zuni sun worshippers". To me, that symbol also talked about honouring and serving something greater than you are.

 

[Birch Dragon]

Well, good things come to those who wait.
I thought this post was lost in the ether the moment I hit the "Submit" button... and then suddenly there are three thoughtful responses.
Thank you Greybeard, dr. farr and Therese.
My favorite thing about these three posts is that they each council one of my three options.
greybeard says go with the rectified chart.
dr. farr says go with the original birth time.
And Terese says to sit calmly in the ambiguity.

 

[greybeard]

The Oracle has spoken.