Ethics of third party charts

tsmall

Premium Member
Recently posts debating the ethics of reading third party charts, that is to say horary charts posing questions such as "is my mother having an affair," or even "is so and so gay," or the all time golden oldie "is my ex dating someone else," were deleted from a horary thread as being non astrological posts.

The crux of the discussion centered on asking and/or answering these kinds of questions via horary and whether or not it was ethical to do so. Is this a proper use of horary? Is it ok to try to "peek," for lack of a better term, into the lives of other people? At what point does the astrologer reading the chart, or helping to read the chart become culpable if the answer/reading produces a negative outcome that results in harm or injury to the quesited, if for no other reason than having a lack of understanding of the motives behind the asking in the first place? And at what point on a horary forum does it become not ok to point these ideas out?

Thoughts? Debate? Discussion?
 

tikana

Well-known member
i wouldnt be too harsh on "is my ex seeing someone else?" if the querent cannot make up his/her mind if she/he has a shot with an ex.

the rest i wouuldnt even open them
T
 

tsmall

Premium Member
i wouldnt be too harsh on "is my ex seeing someone else?" if the querent cannot make up his/her mind if she/he has a shot with an ex.

Would you dig a bit though? What if the querent gets a yes and then decides to shoot the ex and the new love? Or would you just read the chart, no questions asked?
 

tikana

Well-known member
okay so let's say the answer is yes, person goes after the x.
That would be visible in the chart if a person would persue the x and if X would choose the querent over his/her current interest.
I would look at the chart then figure out if i should say anything at all!
 

tsmall

Premium Member
okay so let's say the answer is yes, person goes after the x.
That would be visible in the chart if a person would persue the x and if X would choose the querent over his/her current interest.
I would look at the chart then figure out if i should say anything at all!

How many other people here do you think can do that? If we allow these kinds of charts to stand, knowing that most of the readers here are just newly studying and may not be aware of the dangers posed by unethical questions that really are none of their business, are we promting the craft to be used wisely?
 

tikana

Well-known member
Tsmall

again we are going back to the original conversation about 2 days ago. who really sat down and studied traditional horary.

how do you know who knows horary astrology or not?
by posting an answer is not the same as confirmed outcome.

If you take a look at the pregnancy chart on skyscript, literally everyone got a yes on Aglaya's thread. When i saw it, i was thinking "it is NO! but I could be wrong!" outcome the woman is not pregnant.

Sometimes i question myself

T
 
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waybread

Well-known member
The standard forum protocol is that 3rd party charts are allowed for (a) public figures, and (b) ordinary people whose personal data are anonymous.

Sometimes I will see a third party post that just seems too nosy or intrusive, and sometimes I will call the person on it. If it seems too much like the querent is actually trying "to read someone's mail," then it is OK to inquire about her motives.

Another consideration is that the astrologer may have to turn the chart a bit to deal with 3rd party questions.

Re: the possibility of a jealous ex taking a horary reading on faith as gospel truth-- some astrology societies' ethics codes requires their members to qualify their answers.
 

Dirius

Well-known member
I think tsmall's post is true regarding the ethical implications of 3rd party questions, particularly affair type of questions.

That being said, I myself have 2 rules:

- If you can't handle the answer, don't ask the question.

- This is a prediction/interpretation, whatever you choose to do with it is your choice.

But I do understand tsmall's opinion. How far should we delve into horary regarding other people's private lives? What are the consequences for doing so. It is a gray area indeed...

I have a personal recent example regarding this, on an horary example I posted on the forum. Was about the girl I was going out recently. The chart I made before asking her out showed clearly she was still into her ex-boyfriend...so obviously gave me an "advantage" on the situation (she was single, but not emotionally available).

At some point I obviously asked her about it, sort of knowing the answer, and pretty much knowing what had happened. In a way it helped me gain her trust a little bit more. :tongue:

Now on this case, it was a silly thing, on a personal issue, but, how can we avoid doing that?
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
Third party charts are a no-no in almost every case. That being said, it's important to ask questions about the situation before judging the situation as being toxic. It's also important to look at the chart to see if the situation is toxic, because querents are going to try to defend themselves.

Horary is a tool for helping oneself, but not helping oneself to other people.
 

tikana

Well-known member
here is something even more evil scenario

Let's say a querent asks about xlover;.. someone here on AW posts there is someone else. the querent goes out and kills the x
we dont know the motif of what people are asking.

if one is asking does my x have another and hopes to get back with that person, i get it
BUT
how do you know the querent's intent?

I have asked 3rd party question but there was a reason behind it, reply was non of your business. Well, it makes sense but it was a political question that effects a whole nation not just 1 person.



T
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
tikana said:
I have asked 3rd party question but there was a reason behind it, reply was non of your business. Well, it makes sense but it was a political question that effects a whole nation not just 1 person.

Yeah...there's a whole 'nother thing involved in those kinds of questions. The tradition is that we don't ask questions about people who have no personal connection to, and even then only those we care about as much as ourselves. This goes back to the necessity of the stirring of the soul, and such questions are probably not the soul-searching type that is typical of a horary consultation. The only exception I could think of off the top of my head are war questions regarding countries of residence.

That being said, there can still be times when these are appropriate. Like personal horaries that taken place in front of a larger political backdrop, but those are pretty rare.

if one is asking does my x have another and hopes to get back with that person, i get it
BUT
how do you know the querent's intent?

My answer would be the chart describes the querent's state of mind and we should be able to discern a troubled querent. Another way would be the way the question is phrased. "Is my ex seeing someone else" is none of their business. "Will my ex and I get back together" is their business. We should be able to ascertain from that question whether the ex is currently involved with another person, but that would be up to the individual astrologer to decide to share or not.
 

tikana

Well-known member
Kai

how many ppl on this board are well versed in CA? Less than 10. If the chart ends up in the wrong hands, the astrologer might create a whole tragedy.

I just had a horary that was asked by my bff. If Russia would full scale invade Ukraine? My follow up was why Ukrainian president was in the US? What did he accomplish? gas or weapons?" it was relevant because my bff's bf is fighting in Ukrainian forces and they need better weapons cause all their stuff is Russian made outdated junk. I posted the chart, it was shot down as out of curiosity question. go figure.

Yeah the chart will show the intent .. last lunar aspect anything surrounding 1st house and Lord of H1.

clarifying
T
 
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waybread

Well-known member
I like a lot of reasoning on this thread.

I've engaged in major debates with people on this forum who thought that 3rd party requests for death prediction were perfectly OK. Never mind the potential to which such "information" could be put.

As it is, I think of the partner of an elderly friend who died in 2013, after struggling with severe dementia for several years. The partner, because they weren't legally married, did not have power of attorney over his finances: his adult children did. With their dad mentally incompetent, the kids spent down his life savings to the point where there was scarcely enough money to pay for his funeral. Imagine naïve or greedy horary astrologers working with human vultures as clients. They're out there.

Most of the caring professions' societies have developed ethics codes that stress some version of the Hippocratic Oath, with its "first do no harm" clause.

Some questions we should never deal with. With others, we have to use our sensitivity and judgment. Personal humility is so important. I've gotten into bad interactions by attempting a question that was beyond my level of astrological expertise, but didn't know any better.
Horary astrologers get missing persons questions-- another area where astrological expertise, personal humility and buckets of compassion and sensitivity are essential.
 
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tsmall

Premium Member
I think tsmall's post is true regarding the ethical implications of 3rd party questions, particularly affair type of questions.

That being said, I myself have 2 rules:

- If you can't handle the answer, don't ask the question.

- This is a prediction/interpretation, whatever you choose to do with it is your choice.

Dirius, I completely agree with your rule number one. I'm of mixed feelings about rule number two. On the one hand, I agree that the astrologer is merely interpreting for the querent. On the other, it concerns me that astrologers may be handing unknown querents a loaded gun without knowing what they will do with it. Are we released from culpability?

I have a personal recent example regarding this, on an horary example I posted on the forum. Was about the girl I was going out recently. The chart I made before asking her out showed clearly she was still into her ex-boyfriend...so obviously gave me an "advantage" on the situation (she was single, but not emotionally available).

At some point I obviously asked her about it, sort of knowing the answer, and pretty much knowing what had happened. In a way it helped me gain her trust a little bit more. :tongue:

Now on this case, it was a silly thing, on a personal issue, but, how can we avoid doing that?

There is an inherent difference in asking a "third party" question for yourself, or for a querent you know than there is in reading a chart blindly on a forum, no questions asked. In your case, your motives were clear to you, as what your intention was to do with the information. You are responsible for yourself.

My answer would be the chart describes the querent's state of mind and we should be able to discern a troubled querent.

Yes, the chart does, and yes, we should. But as previously pointed out, not all horary astrologers are even aware of those techniques. Including ones who have been practicing for "more than 40 years."

Another way would be the way the question is phrased. "Is my ex seeing someone else" is none of their business. "Will my ex and I get back together" is their business. We should be able to ascertain from that question whether the ex is currently involved with another person, but that would be up to the individual astrologer to decide to share or not.

This kind of leads back to digging. How the question is phrased does give us insight into what the querent is looking for. Then again, it is very easy, if we pay attention, to pick up cues simply from the language people use when writing. I believe we had a whole thread about that last fall, though I can't quite find it at the moment.

I suppose I'm largely curious to see what other horary astrologers think of blindly reading third party questions, and why. Is it just that we want to prove our skills by reading any chart? Is it that we "see" something beyond the apparent question? Or are we obligated to prod the querent into providing more information on such charts before we spend the time answering?
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Would you dig a bit though?
What if the querent gets a yes and then decides to shoot the ex and the new love?
Or would you just read the chart, no questions asked?
one is not responsible for the reactions of the querent
and also

the querent may have already decided to shoot the ex and the new love prior to asking the question

nevertheless
seems an ethical minefield :smile:
 

tsmall

Premium Member
Happy New Year to you and zoo, tsmall!

Have you got a specific troublesome question in mind?

Happy New Year to you too!

Not specifically. As I mentioned in my thread starter, I am curious as to how other members view attempting blind readings of third party horary charts on the internet. It is one thing for the horarist to be the querent, therefore understand the intent, or even be able to consult/chat with the querent and something entirely different (at least in my mind, hence the thread--maybe I'm just overly cautious or sensitive :unsure:) to just dive into a chart without understanding the background of the question, or the reason behind it.

I know that we've had several threads on the ethics of certain types of charts (can we find homosexuality in the natal chart, death prediction being two that immediately come to mind.) I'm not suggesting that an astrologer should totally take anything off the table, just wondering if it's a good idea to do any of this "blind" so to speak, and hoping for discussion from the larger community on these issues.
 

Dirius

Well-known member
Dirius, I completely agree with your rule number one. I'm of mixed feelings about rule number two. On the one hand, I agree that the astrologer is merely interpreting for the querent. On the other, it concerns me that astrologers may be handing unknown querents a loaded gun without knowing what they will do with it. Are we released from culpability?

I understand. I think Bernadette Brady (on a skyscript interview), mentioned that one time she got a call from the police asking about a regular client of her. I don't remember correctly about it, but apparently some of her readings might have "incite" him to commit some crimes :sick::surprised:

But I do understand what you are saying. To me the problem is not the loaded gun, but the violent idiot using it. You can find any type of questions that could incite to violence.

Love questions and affairs, are obviously the first example. But also:

- football fans might get a bad reading against their team, and go off and shoot a player/coach.

- business partners might attack each other for an economical question.

- A violent father could ask about his son's performance at school/university and be angry at him

Etc, etc, etc.

Even a first house question could lead to a violent suicidal inscident. The truth is that, while there are some "cliche" cases, any type of horary question could lead to a violent outcome if the querent is not in their right mind.

But the truth is that, if the querent is violent and crazy in the first place, that violent act would probably occur with or without your reading.

Interesting case: A few years ago in my home town, a man killed his wife. Apparently the man came home "angry", because earlier that day he had an argument with his boss. When he gave his testimony to the police, one of the first things he mentioned was:-"I'm not sure...I was just so angry because of this at work, that I wanted to be alone."

So...are his boss's hands covered in blood because of this? :andy:

Let me say it again, I do understand completly what you are saying. But, at least to me, a violent idiot or an irrational person, can get angry at ANYTHING that happens around them.

- People get anrgy and yell at the waitress in restaurants because their food is not that hot

- People yell and curse at a poor guy in tech support because they have been without internet on their phones for only 5 minutes.

- People get into fights because of sport matches....

So...

The only real way to avoid this would be not to have an Horary sections, or just to leave it as "horary theory". Many times when people ask 7th house questions, and the spouse is clearly cheating...I do wonder what will happen if I say:"he/she is cheating".

Its just that in the end I don't think it would be our fault.

But trust me, i do get it :joyful: :joyful:
 
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Marinka

Well-known member
The crux of the discussion centered on asking and/or answering these kinds of questions via horary and whether or not it was ethical to do so. Is this a proper use of horary? Is it ok to try to "peek," for lack of a better term, into the lives of other people? At what point does the astrologer reading the chart, or helping to read the chart become culpable if the answer/reading produces a negative outcome that results in harm or injury to the quesited, if for no other reason than having a lack of understanding of the motives behind the asking in the first place? And at what point on a horary forum does it become not ok to point these ideas out?

Thoughts? Debate? Discussion?

My thoughts (and actions) on this ...

I very rarely do 3rd party charts (take that as never) and usually only make exceptions to my rules if I suspect that there may be some danger to one of the parties involved.

I take the seriousness of keeping a person's chart private very highly. I put this on the same level as the government does with medical records. There are seldom exceptions to my rules to give access to a person's chart information to other people but, one exception would be if someone was the power of attorney for a mentally incompetent (certified by a doctor) person.

As to questions on this site that I might find "encroaching" on the private details of another - I usually ignore those questions now. Previously, I may have tried to answer without divulging private details of someone else. A few times I may have made a comment as to why I wasn't going to spend time on the question. But, in general, now I find it just too tedious to spend any time at all on questions like this and taking the time to explain that while I may agree they can ask any question they want, it does not necessarily mean that someone is going to answer.

I am of the camp that I am simply the messenger when it comes to reading a chart and if the person whose chart it is wants information such as death, sickness or similar, then it is their chart and if I can access that information - then I do so. But, if they are not interested in that information, then it does not get discussed. I take it akin to being the one that delivers the information of a "lab result or biopsy". Is there a responsibility here on my part ... of course, I would become intertwined in either case, whether I knowingly provide information or squirrel it away. My guide in situations like this has been that I should not be making a decision for someone else - it is their life (their chart), their decision and as such, I do not squirrel the information away.

I have very clear rules that I follow in the information I provide to the owner of a chart and to someone that is not the owner of a chart. These are my rules and are only binding for me ....

 

waybread

Well-known member
In a way, don't most horary questions involving other people become 3rd party questions? "Is my boyfriend cheating on me?" involves the querent, the BF, and possibly another lover. A chart showing translation of light or frustration oftentimes involves a 3rd party. "Will the bank finance my mortgage on the house I offered to buy?" can involve several people at the bank, beyond the buyer and seller.

I've glanced through the 4 horary primers I have on hand, and couldn't see where any of them argued against 3rd party questions; though the authors cautioned the astrologer against undertaking a question of dubious morality or to be used for an unethical purpose. In fact, the chart should show if the question is tainted.

So the answer isn't a clear "yes or no," but a matter of judgment and sensitivity.

Are you familiar with Lilly's letter to the student? (copied in Barclay, Horary Astrology Rediscovered, p. 292.) Basically Lilly says that the astrologer should be a devout, discrete, and humble person.

"...afflict not the miserable with terror of a harsh judgment; in such cases, let them know their hard fate by degrees; direct them to call on God to divert his judgments impending over them...."

Which brings up another point insisted upon by the ethics codes of several major astrological associations: that predictions should always be qualified (as probable or likely, not as absolute.)

Put differently, if an astrologer thinks a horoscope reading could cause some type of harm to another person, either s/he shouldn't answer the question, or else should prepare a tactful, supportive response that includes some mitigation measures.

Note that Lilly does not say, "Your clients are big boys and girls. If they can't handle a negative answer, they shouldn't ask the question."

I think he would have found such an attitude to be irresponsible.
 
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