equivalent of Scorpio to Chinese Zodiac

theM

Well-known member
Hi planet9!

Oh,that's interesting that you even write your own software.Thanks for the links. =)

Yes,I know what you mean with Wikipedia.The editors can decide.
So from this view you're definitely right.^^
Though altogether I was often content with the information regarding e.g. Astrology as these information were general and found on other sites/books,too.
That may be, but the initial assumption in this thread, that the zodiacal signs and the animals are equivalent, has no basis. That there are 12 of each does not imply any kind of equivalence.
Like I said we can't translate them totally but there is as basis because actually the month pillar (month sign) always changes at 15 degrees so this concept is not false.
So Scorpio = first 15 degrees of Scorpio: Dog / second 15 degrees of Scorpio: Pig


Sources:
- http://www.onetreefengshui.com/blog/?p=624

"The Four Pillars are worked out according to the Solar calendar. A Solar year usually begins on the 4th of Feb, every year. It is when the Sun is 15 degrees into Aquarius."
- http://www.liziabatla.in/astrology.html

"The Chinese Solar year is defined in our Western Terms as literally 15 degrees Tropical Aquarius, around February 4th each year and lasts until this time next year."
- http://www.signsinlife.com/astrology/chinese-four-pillar-analysis-part-i/


Wish you a nice day,
theM
 
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planet9

Well-known member
Like I said we can't translate them totally but there is as basis because actually the month pillar (month sign) always changes at 15 degrees so this concept is not false.
So Scorpio = first 15 degrees of Scorpio: Dog / second 15 degrees of Scorpio: Pig

My understanding is that the four pillars are the year, month, day and hour of birth according to the Chinese lunar calendar, and that in the Chinese solar calendar there are no months, only solar terms, except that some people insist on treating adjacent pairs of solar terms as 'months' and associating these with the animals of the four pillars so as to work up some system of Chinese astrology.

I see that you cite sources to support your view, and that's good, but I have my doubts that these sources genuinely represent astrology as practiced by the Chinese, rather than 'Chinese astrology' as invented by Westerners. But I admit I have not studied Chinese astrology deeply, so I can't claim to know for sure.

Sources:
- http://www.onetreefengshui.com/blog/?p=624
"The Four Pillars are worked out according to the Solar calendar.
I followed this link (not the others) and it wasn't long before I came across misinformation regarding the Chinese lunar calendar. I refer to the page at http://www.chinesefortunecalendar.com/clc/LeapMonth.htm

"The major difference [between the Chinese solar and lunar calendars] is the assignment of Leap Months (Intercalary Months)"
-- FALSE The solar calendar has no 'Leap Months'.

"a leap month is assigned if a lunar month (new moon to new moon) has no Solar Center Point" (that is, no major solar term, one of the Z1 ... Z12).
-- FALSE A month in the lunar calendar becomes a leap month if it has no major solar term and it is the first such month in the sequence of months making up a sui, which is a sequence of lunar months beginning with a month containing the winter solstice (as explained here).

I could go on, but I'll just mention that the author's misunderstanding of how the Chinese lunar calendar is constructed leads him to give a false explanation of why none of the early months of our year 2053 is a leap month, even though the month which runs from February 19 to March 20 does not contain any major solar term. The data provided by my Chinese Calendrics software provides an explanation but I suspect this would be of interest only to really serious students of the Chinese Calendar, so I won't burden you with this.
 
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theM

Well-known member
Maybe some sites have faults but taht's not the point.
I think it's a fact that the month pillar (month sign) changes always at 15 degrees.
That's on all web sites I know and even in books.
That's part of the Chinese Astrology.
Actually the seasons also change at this points like Tiger (15 degrees of Aquarius) is Spring begin etc.
You can read it everywhere in the net.

That's what I said right at the beginning.

Scorpio =
first 15 degrees of Scorpio: Dog / second 15 degrees of Scorpio: Pig

Sagittarius =
first 15 degrees of Sagittarius: Pig / second 15 degrees of Sagittarius: Rat
and so on.

That's the only thing I'm talking about.
It was probably a misunderstanding.^^

Greetings, :)
theM
 

planet9

Well-known member
I think it's a fact that the month pillar (month sign) changes always at 15 degrees.
That's on all web sites I know and even in books.
That's part of the Chinese Astrology.
Actually the seasons also change at this points like Tiger (15 degrees of Aquarius) is Spring begin etc.
You can read it everywhere in the net.

You probably know that it's common for people who put up web sites to copy from other web sites. So an error or confusion put up on one site can be spread to many.

Every site says that the Four Pillars are the year, month, day and hour of birth, and I have no problem with this, as long as this means year, month and day according to the Chinese lunar calendar. The Chinese Calendrics program provides three of the Four Pillars as the element-animal for the year, month and day in the Chinese lunar calendar corresponding to any Western date.

Misinformation is found on some sites which assert that the Four Pillars are calculated according to the Chinese solar calendar, which does not divide the year into months but rather into 24 periods based on the times of the solar terms. The ploy seems to be to equate adjacent pairs of solar terms with (a) animal names and (b) Western zodiacal signs. Locating a Western birth date within the period bounded by two major solar terms would give an animal (assuming the animals are associated with pairs of solar terms) for the 'month', but it would not give an element. And the day would be different (day since initial major solar term rather than day since dark moon). Such a method of calculating the Four Pillars would give different results from the method based on the Chinese lunar calendar.

Scorpio =
first 15 degrees of Scorpio: Dog / second 15 degrees of Scorpio: Pig

Sagittarius =
first 15 degrees of Sagittarius: Pig / second 15 degrees of Sagittarius: Rat
and so on.
So it seems to me that these equations are based on a misuse of the concept of the Four Pillars and an unjustified association of animal names with pairs of solar terms. Or to put it more plainly, these equations are bogus.
 

theM

Well-known member
Hi planet9! =)

So it seems to me that these equations are based on a misuse of the concept of the Four Pillars and an unjustified association of animal names with pairs of solar terms. Or to put it more plainly, these equations are bogus.
In theory you could be right but in practice:
How should it work if the month pillar is calculated using the chinese lunar calendar?
12 month signs but not always 12 months like you said.
Sometimes there’s a leap month.
That would be imbalance.It would be more logical to calculate it after the solar agricultural calendar.
I found even on chinese sites that the Spring begin is 315 degrees of the solar year meaning February 3-5.


On this site- the problem is explained and they assigned it the way I say but your idea is not wrong as there's a system where they use lunar and solar months.

Without this knowledge, above-mentioned,
most people will be confused about the solar months and lunar months.
They may think all Chinese Fortune-Telling system use lunar months. Actually, the Fortune-Telling system called
8Char.gif
Eight Characters only uses the solar month, not the lunar month. The other popular system called
PrupleStar.gif
Dipper uses solar month and lunar month together.


Source: http://www.chinesefortunecalendar.com/clc/LunarCalendar.htm
Another source: http://discoveringmandarin.blogspot.de/2010/01/four-pillars-of-destiny-months-and.html


So the equivalent of Scorpio =
first 15 degrees of Scorpio: Dog / second 15 degrees of Scorpio: Pig
has a basis and is not bogus as you said.
Sorry,but bogus sounded really unfriendly.


Greetings,
theM
 
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planet9

Well-known member
Sorry,but bogus sounded really unfriendly.

Merriam-Webster defines 'bogus' as 'not genuine'.

How should it work if the month pillar is calculated using the chinese lunar calendar?
See The 60-day and 60-month Cycles for an explanation of the element-animal associated with the month in the Chinese lunar calendar.

I found even on chinese sites that the Spring begin is 315 degrees of the solar year meaning February 3-5.
The solar term designated J1 is 'lichun' which is translated as 'Start of Spring'. This is the time in the solar year at which the Sun reaches 315° ecliptic longitude. So?

On this site- the problem is explained and they assigned it the way I say but your idea is not wrong as there's a system where they use lunar and solar months.

Without this knowledge, above-mentioned,
most people will be confused about the solar months and lunar months.
They may think all Chinese Fortune-Telling system use lunar months. Actually, the Fortune-Telling system called
8Char.gif
Eight Characters only uses the solar month, not the lunar month. The other popular system called
PrupleStar.gif
Dipper uses solar month and lunar month together.


Source: http://www.chinesefortunecalendar.com/clc/LunarCalendar.htm
Another source: http://discoveringmandarin.blogspot.de/2010/01/four-pillars-of-destiny-months-and.html
The first source quoted is the site I mentioned in an earlier message. The author of this site is confused as to how the Chinese lunar calendar is constructed. This website contains misinformation.

The second source that you cite does little more than display the table associating animals with pairs of solar terms. I showed in an earlier message that this table is misinformation (false, bogus, unreliable).

Wikipedia contains much misinformation. Some people assume that whatever they read on Wikipedia must be true because it's on Wikipedia, and Wikipedia is an encyclopedia! But Wikipedia's promoting itself as an 'encyclopedia' does not mean that it merits that name, and it does not mean that it is a reliable source of knowledge. And if you are going to cite websites as reliable then I ask: How do you know? You can know only if you do some study of the subject. Sometimes, however, you can trust what is said on a website, but only if the author knows what he is talking about. Wikipedia is rife with the opinions of people who think they know what they are talking about but don't.

For (mostly) reliable information about calendars see the Calendar Wiki.
 

theM

Well-known member
Hi planet9! :)

See The 60-day and 60-month Cycles for an explanation of the element-animal associated with the month in the Chinese lunar calendar.
That's okay for a calendar but for horoscopes like the 4 pillars in this case it's imbalance
because the rule is that if a leap month occur the same month sign just recur.So it's not a very logical system for astrology.
I understand why mostly the solar calendar is used for Astrology.

The solar term designated J1 is 'lichun' which is translated as 'Start of Spring'. This is the time in the solar year at which the Sun reaches 315° ecliptic longitude. So?
When I wrote about
the Spring begin being 15 degrees of Aquarius= 315 degrees of the Solar year
and being the beginning of the Tiger month of the solar calendar you wrote about widespread errors and confusions.

Merriam-Webster defines 'bogus' as 'not genuine'.
From my view it sounded unfriendly because the whole time you write that things that are common are bogus, widespread misinformation, have no basis.

Actually 210 - 240 degrees of the Solar year belong to the Dog (195-225) and Pig (225-255) segments in the chinese (agricultural) solar calendar.
This section is called "Scorpio" in western astrology.
And that's the only thing I'm writing about the whole time.

There can be a mistake in the leap month-article of www.chinesefortunecalendar.com. But that doesn't change facts.
As in almost every site you will somewhere find a mistake and that's not the point.
Maybe even in your site there's somewhere a little mistake like a single word wrongly spelled by chance.
Would that mean that the content of your whole site is wrong.
-No.So,that's it.
I mean no harm but I just want to make things clear.


Greetings,
theM
 
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planet9

Well-known member
Actually 210 - 240 degrees of the Solar year belong to the Dog (195-225) and Pig (225-255) month in the chinese (agricultural) solar calendar.

There is no "Dog and Pig month" in the Chinese solar calendar. I have tried to explain this to you for quite awhile now. I won't try further, since you will just continue to cite websites which propagate this falsehood.

Of course, anyone can invent some system of 'astrology', using a mix of concepts derived from the Chinese solar and lunar calendars and from Western astrology, and then call it 'Chinese astrology'. Or they can run across someone else's invention (found on some website) and accept the implicit claim that this is 'Chinese astrology'. If you wish to believe that this sort of thing is genuine (not bogus) then of course you're free to do so, and here's wishing you an entertaining time.
 

theM

Well-known member
Hi again planet9!

There is no "Dog and Pig month" in the Chinese solar calendar. I have tried to explain this to you for quite awhile now. I won't try further, since you will just continue to cite websites which propagate this falsehood.
Even if there wouldn't be them which I don't think than the assignment is not a bit odd as the solar and lunar month often overlap.
The solar terms give the lunar calendar structure and chinese astrology is obviously easier and clearer using the solar calendar for the month pillar.

Of course, anyone can invent some system of 'astrology', using a mix of concepts derived from the Chinese solar and lunar calendars and from Western astrology, and then call it 'Chinese astrology'. Or they can run across someone else's invention (found on some website) and accept the implicit claim that this is 'Chinese astrology'.

Who is anyone in that case? Anyone = various sites and books.
Why can't chinese astrology assign the solar terms to the 12 signs?
What's so odd about that?
It's logical that the solar year and it's 12 segments will play an important role in each Astrology.
If chinese astrology would be only based on the lunar cycle than it would not necessarily have 12 animal signs because there are sometimes 13 lunations in a years therefore there are leap months.
Even in the descriptions of the animal signs you can often read traits that belong to the equivalent western signs like Tiger,
which contains the second half of Aquarius and the first half of Pisces, owns traits of both zodiac signs
or the way around like Pisces owns traits that belong to Tiger and Rabbit.
There is an equivalent for everything in the universe.
That's the law of analogy.

So for me and many others this is not bogus like you said.It's natural.
I really respect and esteem your knowledge about calendars, software etc. but does that automatically mean that you're always correct about the entire chinese astrology?
Please,don't take it personal,but for me the text I posted from chinesefortunecalendar.com,
wikipedia (in this case) and the book of Pamela Leigh Powers sounded more genuine.
Sorry.

If you wish to believe that this sort of thing is genuine (not bogus) then of course you're free to do so, and here's wishing you an entertaining time.
The last thing sounds ironical.That's a pity.

Anyway, I'm wishing you all the best,
theM =)
 
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comdoc

Well-known member
There is some confusion regarding "Chinese Astrology". Actually the BaZi system of Four Pillars is based on solar movements. ZWDS or Twelve Palaces system is based on Sundial (solar) Time. Planet9 information that Western (Tropical) Astrology Signs and Chinese Animals are offset by 15 degrees is essentially correct. Winter Solstice in northern hemisphere is the Sagittarius/Capricorn cusp and the center of Rat. However, the traditional Chinese Animals do refer to 12 year cycle...while Western Zodiac refers to 12 equal solar month divisions of the Year cycle.

These Eastern and Western Astrology systems are fractal. That means they resonate with each other. And they describe the similar 12 parts in a year or 12-year cycle. Just offset by about a 2-week period. I'm currently writing a book which shows correspondence between East and West Astrology cycles.

Using the Chinese Animal originally derived from the 12-year cycle to also describe a solar month helps to relate the two systems. Already I've discovered parallel meanings by using both systems in relation to each other.

Best regards,

comdoc
 

Theroaringlion

New member
Hi planet9! =)

In theory you could be right but in practice:
How should it work if the month pillar is calculated using the chinese lunar calendar?
12 month signs but not always 12 months like you said.
Sometimes there’s a leap month.
That would be imbalance.It would be more logical to calculate it after the solar agricultural calendar.
I found even on chinese sites that the Spring begin is 315 degrees of the solar year meaning February 3-5.


On this site- the problem is explained and they assigned it the way I say but your idea is not wrong as there's a system where they use lunar and solar months.

Without this knowledge, above-mentioned,
most people will be confused about the solar months and lunar months.
They may think all Chinese Fortune-Telling system use lunar months. Actually, the Fortune-Telling system called
8Char.gif
Eight Characters only uses the solar month, not the lunar month. The other popular system called
PrupleStar.gif
Dipper uses solar month and lunar month together.


Source: http://www.chinesefortunecalendar.com/clc/LunarCalendar.htm
Another source: http://discoveringmandarin.blogspot.de/2010/01/four-pillars-of-destiny-months-and.html


So the equivalent of Scorpio =
first 15 degrees of Scorpio: Dog / second 15 degrees of Scorpio: Pig
has a basis and is not bogus as you said.
Sorry,but bogus sounded really unfriendly.


Greetings,
theM

Id like to say this is an amazing thread, and am largely amazed at how polite everyone is being. That being said, id like to interject some thoughts on the matter, and please forgive my grammar im posting from a tiny smart phone, and i cant be bothered, lol.

So, i too have been researching into this cunundrum, and i have noticed the following... Many of the websites agree through various explanations that say the zodiacal sign of sheep corresponds to 15 degrees cancer, to 15 degrees leo, whether you are using the four pillars methods or the agricultural calender directly, is moot, they all agree when it comes to the months....

The biggest problem is, and ill be the elephant in the room but, the year signs are ACTUALLY based loosely on the position of jupiter in the tropical zodiac, and that takes approximately 11.87 years to complete a cycle, calindrics however admirable your efforts are at tracking dates, are substantially invalid over time, thus intercalary months etc, because they arent actually based on observation,

the big problem your having difficulty coming to terms with is you did all that work, and want to be proud of what you achieved on the calender software, but from an astrological perspective you're still wrong.

Do me a favour, and instead of bickering back and forth about this without any astrological information to verify your claims, pick a chart preferably of a friend or family member, find Jupiter, try both methods, use traditional interpretations using each of the methods discussed, and post the results, ill gladly eat my words, if i am wrong, but for instance, i was born october 12th 1978, and that places me in the horse year, however, correlating jupiter with the agricultural calender, that firmly places me in the sign of sheep/goat, whatever, and i can tell you without a shadow of a doubt i most strongly resemble a person with the attributes of the goat sign, and not at all the horse sign, but dont take my word for it, do the research, and post what you found easily solved, instead of bickering about who did more work, bad work does not equate to accuracy, just do it.

Ps its called astrology for a reason... If you want to argue about calenders please find a calender reform page to bicker on about calenders
 

CapAquaPis

Well-known member
The pig is the most malefic year of the Chinese zodiac, esp. The element fire pig, the western calendar year 2007 was and it can be said in 12 years, a catastrophe or crisis comes. 1935 was a fire pig year and within 12 years, the Chinese civil war between communists who will defeat the nationalists in 1947-49, was part of the prophecy for mainland China as well the still nationalist Chinese government in exile in Taiwan. And the 2019-20 Wuhan then national and finally global covid19 pandemic.
 

CapAquaPis

Well-known member
In addition, China had major events in 1937: the Japanese invasion and occupation of Eastern China (which began earlier in 1931 by Japanese colonialization of Manchuria) including the Nanjing massacre and 2008: the Xinjiang uprising by the native Ugyurs revolted against the communist han Chinese majority government during the summer Olympics in Beijing at the time. China in 2002-04 dealt with the SARS pandemic and thankfully it didn't sweep every country in the world when it peaked in 2003.
 

CapAquaPis

Well-known member
One more post: In the 1930s, Mao Zedong of the communists had an earlier civil war against Chiang Kai-Shek of the nationalists, but the two became allies when the Japanese invaded and occupied much of China during WW2 to easily defeated them and Nationalist China was an ally with the USA and the British, but naturally the Maoists were allied with the Soviets (Russia) backed by Josef Stalin. This event indeed happened in the Fire Pig year period of that decade, but the timeline began in 1931 during the Great Depression equally affected China and ended in 1945 when Japan surrendered to the allies.

In 2019, Hong Kong was a site of massive protests and demonstrations against China repealed an amnesty law to protect people in Hong Kong (political and religious dissidents) from extradition to the mainland, since Hong Kong has a sovereign territory government apart from the mainland...part of the British transfer agreement of Hong Kong returned to China in 1997 after 150 years of UK colonial rule, but the communist authorities will cancel out Hong Kong's libertine territorial jurisdiction. Again, in the Fire Pig year period or the first 12 years of a trying time when China was well struck by the Great Recession.
 
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