equivalent of Scorpio to Chinese Zodiac

[HailStorm]

OK. so both the western and the chinese zodiac have 12 signs for both of them and I intuitively understand that they are equivalent of each other and last time I checked, they are indeed equivalent of each other.

http://jongkeun.wordpress.com/2007/07/18/eastern-chinese-zodiac-and-their-western-equivalents/

but what i'm getting at is the chinese zodiac description for Pig. It seems...very odd that the Pig is equivalent to Scorpio. But if you go to this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_(zodiac)

it says there:

“In Japanese culture, the animal is specifically a wild boar. In Japanese, the character <the japanese character for pig visible in that wikipedia article> is pig and the character <the japanese character for wild boar visible in that wikipedia article> denotes the wild boar, though Chinese does not make such a differentiation.”

I have a feeling that the chinese zodiac is actually pertaining to a wild deadly boar, not a tame Pig.

so do you guys have any thoughts about this? and did you happen to get into wild boar descriptions instead of a pig in any chinese zodiac sites that you can perhaps link me to? I believe that as time passed by, the modern chinese astrologers have mistakenly believed that the Wild Boar is actually just a Pig, and so when comparing the equivalents of western to chinese, it becomes odd that Scorpio is to Pig (and having read the modern descriptions of the chinese zodiac, it seems rather tame compared to scorpio.)

This should be interesting.

 

[dr. farr]

Yes, from my studies (moderate level) into the various forms and branches of Chinese astrology, I believe that the Wild Boar was the original "form" intended, and that later it morphed simply into "Boar" and later, to the (domesticated) "Pig".

 

[HailStorm]

what are the original descriptions for the Wild Boar? Many chinese zodiac sites would describe the Pig as someone who is naive, gullible, blah blah ... something very different from a Wild Boar and probably to its western zodiac counterpart, Scorpio.

and can u cite me to any chinese zodiac websites that still retain the form of the Wild Boar along with its original descriptions? it should be interesting to see.

 

[theM]

In chinese astrology there are the 4 pillars:the sign of the year/the month/the day and the hour.
Yes,most people say that the pig is the equivalent to the Scorpio but actually 15.degrees Scorpio to 15.degrees Sagittarius is the Pig month.
So theoretically the Pig is the exactly mixture of Scorpio and Sagittarius.

Greetings,
M.

 

[SniperBomber328]

If you count the months, Scorpio would most likely be associated to the Boar, since Scorpio spends most of its time in November, and the Boar rules November.

But if you count the equinoxes and the solstice of both Winter and Summer, you will see that the Boar most likely would be associated to Sagittarius. Since the equinoxes fall under the Rabbit and Rooster, meaning Aries and Libra, you would count up, like so:

Rooster = Libra
Dog = Scorpio
Boar = Sagittarius

And then go on from there. So like someone said here, the descriptions may be a bit of both. The Boar being a mix of Scorpio and Sagittarius.
A good example would be that the Boar ,in characterism, is Aggressive, Impulsive and sometimes Rashful. Terms that fit Scorpio. But the Boar is also Generous, Faithful and Optimistic; terms that fit Sagittarius.

So in general, it may be a mix of both, who knows?

 

[theM]

@SniperBomber328
Each chinese zodiac sign is the exactly mixture of to western zodiac signs.
Because it's always 15 till 15 degrees.
So like I said the Pig is 15.degrees Scorpio till 15.degrees Sagittarius.
That's it.It's totally easy.

So the Spring Equinox is rabbit because the month of the rabbit lasts from 15.degrees Pisces till 15.degrees Aries- so the 0 degree lies in the zodiac sign of the rabbit.

Greetings,
M.

 

[HailStorm]

so can u guys cite me to a chinese astrology website that has the corresponding months for each of its chinese zodiac sign?

 

[HailStorm]

If you count the months, Scorpio would most likely be associated to the Boar, since Scorpio spends most of its time in November, and the Boar rules November.

But if you count the equinoxes and the solstice of both Winter and Summer, you will see that the Boar most likely would be associated to Sagittarius. Since the equinoxes fall under the Rabbit and Rooster, meaning Aries and Libra, you would count up, like so:

Rooster = Libra
Dog = Scorpio
Boar = Sagittarius

hmmm....

Rabbit is to Aries? Hmmm...in the most popular version, Dragon is to Aries which seems more likely. Hmm...weird.

 

[Ruka_5]

After having read all the chinese zodiac descriptions a while ago, I always thought either Dragon or Snake sounded like Scorpio.

I always see Rooster linked to Virgo, which seems odd to me, it sounds more like Leo imo.

 

[HailStorm]

@SniperBomber328
Each chinese zodiac sign is the exactly mixture of to western zodiac signs.
Because it's always 15 till 15 degrees.
So like I said the Pig is 15.degrees Scorpio till 15.degrees Sagittarius.
That's it.It's totally easy.

So the Spring Equinox is rabbit because the month of the rabbit lasts from 15.degrees Pisces till 15.degrees Aries- so the 0 degree lies in the zodiac sign of the rabbit.

Greetings,
M.

Heh. I think you're right. Can you cite me to any credible website of the chinese zodiac that has months so I can see? I'm not sure if I should trust Wikipedia as some of the chinese zodiac animals have their lunar month dates and some don't.

with what you're saying though, i guess it seems pointless to correlate the 12 western zodiac signs to the 12 chinese zodiac signs.

 

[HailStorm]

After having read all the chinese zodiac descriptions a while ago, I always thought either Dragon or Snake sounded like Scorpio.

I always see Rooster linked to Virgo, which seems odd to me, it sounds more like Leo imo.

You know, I got this book and I don't know where I could have placed it. It's missing. But I think it's Tung Jen's Chinese Astrology. In that book, she has this page that completely has the western zodiac dates correlated to the chinese zodiac signs. she claims that the chinese zodiac signs' lunar month dates are equivalent to the western zodiac dates, so it becomes:

Rat=Sagittarius
Ox=Capricorn
Tiger=Aquarius
Rabbit=Pisces
Dragon=Aries
Snake=Taurus
Horse=Gemini
Goat=Cancer
Monkey=Leo
Rooster=Virgo
Dog=Libra
Pig("Wild Boar" really)=Scorpio

now what's interesting is her take on the descriptions because they aren't like the ones you'd see...for example, her descriptions for Snake is totally Taurus: reserved, sensual, but very much focused on material possessions in a vice-like grip or something like that...she seems to be saying that Snakes are unpredictable and this echoes Taurus' sudden outbursts of temper...

now she describes the Rooster as very much concerned with health and cleanliness and order and that it voices it out so much - it kinda strikes as Virgoan to me. Then, we have the Pig, she said the chinese astrologers were referring to the wild ones- she said, "they're either the easiest or the hardest" and she seemed to be saying that they are kindest but probably the most dangerous with descriptions such as "with a reputation for being mysterious"...this points to Scorpio.

all the other animals, you can see the similarities to their supposed western equivalents obviously. personally to me if we go by her version, it's the pig and snake that will have problems but i guess it depends on what really are their true descriptions are.

but now as I surf the net, it seems that the chinese zodiac's lunar month dates aren't clear-cut correlated to the western zodiac dates, so i guess there's something wrong with her assumption. and as someone here has pointed out, it seems impossible to see the correlation between the two systems anyway since one chinese sign is equivalent of two western zodiac signs. hmm.

 

[HailStorm]

oh and it would be interesting to see to have a chinese zodiac link that has the true descriptions for the signs - not twisted or anything else.

 

[SniperBomber328]

HailStorm, are you talking about Theadora Lau? To anyone who wants to know about the Chinese Zodiac, I have books on them. I know no website with accurate information.

Anyway's, HailStorm, a great example of what you just said would fit what me and TheM are trying to say.

E.g. The Rooster does focus on Health, Perfection and Detail like Virgo does. But also don't forget that the Rooster also focuses on their looks, speech and manners as well, which are Libra traits, not Virgo. Virgo's in fact, Iv'e supposively read, don't care about their looks so much.
Which is what I am saying. They probably adopt traits from both their Month and Solar Signs, a mix sort of speaking. Rooster would be a mix of Virgo and Libra.

Boar's are mysterious, but also generous and optimistic (Saggittarius). Snakes are Possessive like, but also can chat with anyone and be pleasant in speech like a Gemini.

 

[theM]

oh and it would be interesting to see to have a chinese zodiac link that has the true descriptions for the signs - not twisted or anything else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_zodiac

On wikipedia the traits are quite accurate.I read a lot of descriptions of the chinese zodiac and they are quite complete and good.
You can trust them cause they are quite common.

In the section Months and solar terms you can read the roughly dates of the signs.
Like Tiger ca. February 4th till March 5th.And so on.
As I said the chinese zodiac signs are always a mixture of 2 western signs.
Example:
Tiger- 15 degrees Aquarius till 15 degrees Pisces

Heh. I think you're right. Can you cite me to any credible website of the chinese zodiac that has months so I can see? I'm not sure if I should trust Wikipedia as some of the chinese zodiac animals have their lunar month dates and some don't.

with what you're saying though, i guess it seems pointless to correlate the 12 western zodiac signs to the 12 chinese zodiac signs.

I think someone deleted the lunar month dates.
But you can also read the same dates and traits on other sites.They are quite usual and accurate.
Just google "chinese astrology" or "chinese zodiac" and you get very similar descriptions.

It's not pointless to correlate them.They are just made of 2 signs.
This is also the reason why Aries ,for example, is not exactly like Dragon and so on.
The chinese astrology has just a different basis.

 

[planet9]

@SniperBomber328
Each chinese zodiac sign is the exactly mixture of to western zodiac signs.
Because it's always 15 till 15 degrees.
So like I said the Pig is 15.degrees Scorpio till 15.degrees Sagittarius.

Sorry, this is not true. And it confuses a person's sun sign with the Chinese animal-year-of-birth, because the latter relates to a person's year of birth, whereas the former relates to the date of birth within that year.

The only regular connection between Western zodiacal signs and Chinese calendar animals is that there are 12 of each.

The Western zodiac divides the solar year, from one vernal equinox to the next, into 12 equal parts. A year in the Chinese calendar is much more complex. Firstly, a Chinese lunar year can have either 12 or 13 months. (It's true that each month is associated with an animal, but that animal is usually different from the animal associated with the year.) Secondly, the Chinese lunar year does not always begin at the same point in the seasons (as the Western calendar year does). Chinese new year can occur anywhere from [FONT=Trebuchet MS,Arial,Tahoma,Verdana,Sans-serif,Helvetica]January 21 through February 20[/FONT], so even for Chinese years which have 12 months there is no simple correlation of Chinese months with the zodiacal periods.

For an explanation of how a year in the Chinese lunar calendar is formed see The Structure of the Chinese Calendar.

If you want to do conversions between dates in the Chinese Lunar Calendar and Western dates then see the program called Chinese Calendrics. This tells us that:
August 24, 2012, is the 8th day (a fire-snake day) of the 7th month (an earth-monkey month) in a water-dragon year, and
August 24, 2013, is the 18th day (a water-dog day) of the 7th month (a metal-monkey month) in a water-snake year, and
August 24, 2014, is the 29th day (a fire-rabbit day) of the 7th month (a water-monkey month) in a wood-horse year.

August 24 usually occurs in a monkey month of the Chinese lunar calendar, but not always. For example, in 2052 it is the 1st day of a rooster month.

 

[theM]

@ planet 9
I know that the chinese calendar is much more complicated.
But the topic was the chinese equivalent for Scorpio.
Of course,you can't compare a chinese year sign with our Sun signs which last roughly one month.So we have to choose the chinese month signs.
Otherwise you can't compare the western and the chinese signs.

The agricultural calendar is is the best way to explain the signs in a western way and this was the question.
The other chinese calendar is a lunisolar calendar and that would not work.

With this method you can read your birth chart in a different way:
If your Ascendant is e.g. between 15 degrees of Sagittarius and 15 degrees of Capricorn,than your Ascendant is in Rat.
Or if Mars is e.g. between 15 degrees of Pisces and 15 degrees of Aries, than your Mars is in Rabbit.
It's fun combining the western astrology and the chinese zodiac signs.
Though I prefer regular western astrology,anyway.
But it's a new,funny and an interesting alternative way.

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_zodiac
Look at "Months and solar terms" and in the table.

In this book you can read it ,too.
Chinese Power Animals: Archetypes of Transformation
Google Preview:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=V1C...e_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=degrees&f=false


Wish you a nice day! =)
TheM

 

[planet9]

Thanks for the pointer to the Wikipedia page, even though Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information.

Short reply: My basic objection to equating Scorpio with Pig/Boar is that pairs of solar terms cannot be equated with months, and animals are associated only with months.

Long reply:

It's true that the Chinese lunar calendar is based upon a solar calendar (which WP calls the "traditional Chinese agricultural calendar"), as explained here. The solar calendar is divided into 24 'solar terms', labelled Z1, J1, Z2, J2, ..., Z12, J12. These are equal divisions of the ecliptic. Z2 is from 0° to 15°, J3 is from 15° to 30°, Z3 is from 30° to 45°, and so on. So Z2+J3 = the zodiacal sign of Aries, Z3+J4 = Taurus, and so on.

Months in the Chinese Calendar correspond to lunations, where a lunation is the period from one dark moon to the next. A month in the Chinese Calendar always starts on the day of the dark moon (where days start at Chinese midnight). Months are numbered in a way which depends on how lunations match up with the periods during which the Sun is in some (Western) zodiacal sign (the period of 2 solar terms). When the Sun does not leave a zodiacal sign during a particular lunation, the corresponding Chinese month is almost always an intercalary month, and is given the same number as the month preceding it (and that lunar year will then have 13 months).

The WP page talks of "a month of the solar year", but the solar year does not have months. It has 24 solar terms, but 2 solar terms do not make a month. The WP page errs in asserting a strict correspondence between what it mistakenly labels as 'Lunar Months' and pairs of solar terms.

Consider the current Chinese lunar year, which has 13 months. Using the Chinese Calendrics program we obtain the following data:

----------
2012-04-21 CE 15:18 CCT 2,456,039.6377 LN 152 M04 (1 zq)
2012-05-05 CE 10:19 CCT 2,456,053.4302 ST 10 J4 Li xia (Beginning of summer)
2012-05-20 CE 23:15 CCT 2,456,068.9689 ST 11 Z4 Xiao man (Grain full)
----------
2012-05-21 CE 07:46 CCT 2,456,069.3243 LN 153 M4* (0 zq)
2012-06-05 CE 14:25 CCT 2,456,084.6012 ST 12 J5 Mang zhong (Grain in ear)
----------
2012-06-19 CE 23:01 CCT 2,456,098.9597 LN 154 M05 (1 zq)
2012-06-21 CE 07:08 CCT 2,456,100.2974 ST 13 Z5 Xia zhi (Summer solstice)
2012-07-07 CE 00:40 CCT 2,456,116.0282 ST 14 J6 Xiao shu (Slight heat)
----------

See this page for an explanation of this output.

This shows that there is an intercalary month between the months numbered 4 and 5. This intercalary month is designated by 4*. It is an intercalary month because the corresponding lunation runs from May 21 to June 19, but during this time the Sun remains entirely within the Western zodiacal sign of Gemini (which it enters on May 20 and does not leave until June 21 (both GMT and Chinese time = GMT+8). Consequently the period starting with the solar term mángzhòng (=J5) and the period starting with the solar term xiàzhì (=Z5) do not occur in the same lunar month, as the WP page asserts, but rather in different months, namely, 4* and 5 respectively.

The claim that Scorpio = Pig/Boar rests on the argument: Scorpio = solar terms Z9+J10 = shuangjiàng + lìdong = 2nd half of dog month + 1st half of pig month.

The fallacy is that the 2 solar terms Z9+J10 cannot be equated with the two conjoined half-months. Therefore dog/pig cannot be equated with Scorpio.

This is a consequence of the more fundamental fallacy of asserting (as WP does) that the 24 solar terms, divided into 12 adjacent pairs, can be equated with the 12 animals beginning with 'Tiger' simply by labeling the pairs of solar terms as 'Lunar Months'.

 

[planet9]

The solar calendar is divided into 24 'solar terms', labelled Z1, J1, Z2, J2, ..., Z12, J12. These are equal divisions of the ecliptic. Z2 is from 0° to 15°, J3 is from 15° to 30°, Z3 is from 30° to 45°, and so on. So Z2+J3 = the zodiacal sign of Aries, Z3+J4 = Taurus, and so on..

Upon reflection I see that it is not correct to say that the solar terms "are equal divisions of the ecliptic", so rather than be a source of misinformation, as Wikipedia is, I'll provide a conceptual clarification.

There is a fundamental conceptual difference between the Western zodiacal signs and the Chinese solar terms: the former are spatial whereas the latter are temporal. The Western zodiac is a division of the ecliptic into 12 equal parts, each subtending 30° (seen from the Earth). The solar terms presuppose a division of the ecliptic (into 24 equal parts of 15°), but they are not that division itself. Basically the solar terms are points in time, namely, the times that the Sun reaches ecliptic longitudes 0°, 15°, 30°, 45°, and so on.

For example, and using the data in my previous message, in May and June 2012 the solar terms J4, Z4 and J5 occur at the following times (CCT = GMT+8):
J4: 2012-05-05 CE 10:19 CCT
Z4: 2012-05-20 CE 23:15 CCT
J5: 2012-06-05 CE 14:25 CCT and so on.

This conceptual clarification, however, does not affect the reasoning given in my previous message, and my conclusion remains:

This [equating Scorpio with dog/pig] is a consequence of the more fundamental fallacy of asserting (as WP does) that the 24 solar terms, divided into 12 adjacent pairs, can be equated with the 12 animals beginning with 'Tiger' simply by labeling the pairs of solar terms as 'Lunar Months'.

 

[theM]

You're really into this topic.
Thank you very much for the exact information.
Yes,I know that Wikipedia is not always reliable but my impression is that Wikipedia has improved during the last years.

I can understand your conclusion but I have to say that this was the only possibility to find equivalents for the western signs I could imagine.
Still as I said I prefer regular western astrology the most.

Greetings,
theM

 

[planet9]

You're really into this topic.
Thank you very much for the exact information.

You're welcome. I wrote the Chinese Calendrics software, and for this I had to understand how the Chinese lunar calendar is constructed and I had to verify that my software produces correct results (which is why it can be used to display all that detail about times of dark moons and solar terms).

BTW I also wrote another item of Chinese Calendar software: Chinese / Vietnamese / Japanese Anniversary Dates

Yes,I know that Wikipedia is not always reliable but my impression is that Wikipedia has improved during the last years.

Wikipedia is never a source of reliable information, not simply because anyone can post their opinion on any subject, but because, when you're reading something there you can't know whether what you're reading is true or is something that some Wikipedia editor wants you to believe -- unless you consult a real encyclopedia, in which case there was no need to consult Wikipedia.

I can understand your conclusion but I have to say that this was the only possibility to find equivalents for the western signs I could imagine.

That may be, but the initial assumption in this thread, that the zodiacal signs and the animals are equivalent, has no basis. That there are 12 of each does not imply any kind of equivalence.