Entrance of the Soul seen Astrologically

Cosmiccradle

Well-known member
Yes. The idea of the souls entering through the Gates of Man in the Presapae cluster of Cancer is why they chose that sign to rise in the Thema Mundi.



Not mythology. Hellenistic philosophy, though it does tie into Hermetic philosophy with the Moon (the ruler of Cancer) being the last sphere the incoming souls pass through before being born and Saturn (the ruler of Capricorn) as the last sphere souls pass on their journey back to heaven after death. You also have to realize that Cancer and Capricorn are the Solstice signs, which have their own special meanings in solar mythology.

Mythology or philosophy, I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole.
 

Kannon

Well-known member
At what moment after conception if any would you say that the soul entered the body, and how would you define that astrologically in the chart?

The kind of question I like since it gives me an opening to break up the kinds of boxes that start boxing in thinking even within astrology. I've read The Arkana Dictionary of Astrologery by Fred Gettings virtually cover-to-cover. I find the abstract metaphysical speculation by Bailey, other esotericists and the Theosophists to have no practical value within the field of astrology or in answering real questions. These questions relating to the process of incarnation are not answered or served at all, in my opinion, with answers entangled with the limitations and abstractions of astrological language.

So I will answer your question directly, based on my understanding of the Edgar Cayce readings on the topic, and on the accounts of NDE survivors who have been there and returned, and based on my own dynamic relationship with the "other side" from which we come.

The Soul is to be understood differently from Spirit. Soul is an individuation of Spirit, but "spirit" also refers to the very life force itself that every Soul has as its own. So when a Soul incarnates, it extends its life force (etheric silver/blue cord) to the human body to begin the process of living as a human. This moment is THE birth moment and happens most often (up to 4 hours or more) before physical birth, but can happen shortly thereafter. Cayce called this "spiritual birth" (I personally don't like the term, but it appears necessary to understand the overall process). The moment when the full embodiment happens is termed "soul birth" and generally happens after spiritual birth.

The silver/blue etheric cord that NDE survivors say they see connecting them to their bodies while they are being worked on in the ER or operating room is that Spirit referred to by Cayce's description of spiritual birth. Death does not actually take place until that cord has been severed or pulled from the body. As long as it is connected to the human body that is that person, it is still alive (even if not by medical/scientific definition). Life is defined spiritually, not materially only.

Astrologically, there has to be a particular relationship (of which I am uninformed) between Sun, Moon, Uranus, Ascendant for ANY incarnation to occur. While a body can pop out of a mother's womb at any time (the mother's biological finishing process), an interdimensional opening must take place (Sun-Moon-Uranus-Asc) for the real entry to happen.

You have to remember that an interdimensional event is taking place that cannot be described in the terms of ordinary mundane consciousness. Nor do the metaphysical (or even astrological) abstractions of esotericists help much in understanding this process. Most of it is nonsense in my opinion. Instead read the accounts of NDE experiencers and know that they are experiencing birth in reverse. These accounts come from real people living today and in recent times who can relate it to us in ordinary language without metaphysical abstractions.

A baby-to-be hovers around the prospective mother/father and actually mixes and interacts with their energy layers. I've participated in this process as a prospective father just these last few months (late last year). There is a communicative process that can happen consciously if you choose. It can also occur in dreams. However, charts cast for "conception" are not the charts to use for individuals who have been born since the Soul that may be born to that mother can still change. One may back out and another may step in because it isn't an do/don't kind of thing, so long as the mother still wants a child. Some people even back out last minute, and there is no time left for another soul to take its place, therefore a miscarriage/stillbirth, etc occurs.

It is a fascinating area of study and should be studied increasingly by those who want to master astrology.

I can tell you without reservation that the so-called "first breath" theory does not give consistently reliable natal chart results. It isn't that it is "wrong," as much as it was made by those who were only viewing "birth" through linear eyes boxed in by matter, speculating metaphysically instead of getting information from real experience. We have Near Death Experiencers now who can tell us what they experienced in death, a kind of birth in reverse.

To go from this dimension to the next, a doorway must be opened. It cannot occur just anytime. The "first breath" theory does not take this into account.
 

Cosmiccradle

Well-known member
You touch on many areas in your post from NDE to astral projection. Although they do have something in common I only want to touch on one part of your post.

A baby-to-be hovers around the prospective mother/father and actually mixes and interacts with their energy layers. I've participated in this process as a prospective father just these last few months (late last year). There is a communicative process that can happen consciously if you choose. It can also occur in dreams. However, charts cast for "conception" are not the charts to use for individuals who have been born since the Soul that may be born to that mother can still change. One may back out and another may step in because it isn't an do/don't kind of thing, so long as the mother still wants a child. Some people even back out last minute, and there is no time left for another soul to take its place, therefore a miscarriage/stillbirth, etc occurs.

I am in agreement as to your statement that the soul can hover and is indecisive as to it's choice. Also that a soul can back out at the last moment. The statement:

One may back out and another may step in because it isn't an do/don't kind of thing, so long as the mother still wants a child.

I disagree on this. What you're talking about can happen in adult life when people play around with spirits, creating situations like The Search for Bridey Murphy (no comment on it's authenticity) and leave themselves open for those hovering around, but the choice of a baby soul remains the same.

Astrologically, there has to be a particular relationship (of which I am uninformed) between Sun, Moon, Uranus, Ascendant for ANY incarnation to occur. While a body can pop out of a mother's womb at any time (the mother's biological finishing process), an interdimensional opening must take place (Sun-Moon-Uranus-Asc) for the real entry to happen.

Is this from Cayce or another source? I can't quite place what type of situation it would be in the chart if one were to have to use four points, three I can picture.
 

Kannon

Well-known member
CC -

Alan Leo and John Willner, and perhaps other astrologers, were aware of the relationship of Sun-Moon-Uranus-Asc. It is mentioned in the table of contents of one of Leo's books. I had the chance to buy it at a used book store a several years ago and when I went back it was gone. Willner kept the formulas secret because they were given to him with that condition.
 

Cosmiccradle

Well-known member
CC -

Alan Leo and John Willner, and perhaps other astrologers, were aware of the relationship of Sun-Moon-Uranus-Asc. It is mentioned in the table of contents of one of Leo's books. I had the chance to buy it at a used book store a several years ago and when I went back it was gone. Willner kept the formulas secret because they were given to him with that condition.

Then the SEARCH IS ON!
 

Cosmiccradle

Well-known member
CC -

Alan Leo and John Willner, and perhaps other astrologers, were aware of the relationship of Sun-Moon-Uranus-Asc. It is mentioned in the table of contents of one of Leo's books. I had the chance to buy it at a used book store a several years ago and when I went back it was gone. Willner kept the formulas secret because they were given to him with that condition.

I can tell you without reservation that the so-called "first breath" theory does not give consistently reliable natal chart results. It isn't that it is "wrong," as much as it was made by those who were only viewing "birth" through linear eyes boxed in by matter, speculating metaphysically instead of getting information from real experience. We have Near Death Experiencers now who can tell us what they experienced in death, a kind of birth in reverse.

I'm in full agreement with that statement.
 

Cosmiccradle

Well-known member
I seem to have forgotten how pointless it is to say anything regarding house systems unless I first preface treatment of the Asc.

I do not use physical birth time Ascendants, nor does any INCARN Astrologer. Incarn astrology calculates Asc with the birth time (if there is a reliable one) only as a starting place, but determined by the algorithms known by Alan Leo, John Willner, Fred Bickum, which involve the use of the Sun, Moon, Uranus to determine what are essentially the inter-dimensional doorways through which a person can "enter" this dimension. Astrologers who have known these algorithms have not shared them with others. They are available now to everyone in the form of the INCARN software. [ INCARN2 for windows www.sbastro.com ]

Seems a little weird "big secret to be had in software" what's your take on this Kannon?

Or is macthebull perhaps better, pic sure looks like you.

http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?...n=2B26C574-B6A8-4F26-952801CEF1F64C0D96062107

All mixed up CC.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
This reminds me a bit of what I posted regarding the "3 sealings" and "blood-line karma" concepts, and also a little bit regarding the "Past Life Chart" concept. However, in the esoteric tradition from which these ideas spring, the nodes are regarded as the principle doorways, and also certain stars.
 

Kannon

Well-known member
Seems a little weird "big secret to be had in software" what's your take on this Kannon?

Or is macthebull perhaps better, pic sure looks like you.

http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?...n=2B26C574-B6A8-4F26-952801CEF1F64C0D96062107

All mixed up CC.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I don't like the secrecy either. Whatever the reasons were originally, I don't think they are relevant any longer. I don't view astrology as "occult." To me it is part of nature, and while there may be deeper or more 'esoteric' aspects of it, I see it as something Universal that should be shared. I'm not mathematically inclined at all, so I've had to learn a roundabout method of roughly back-engineering accurate Ascendants.

Each birth chart holds all of its own secrets, so if you study it in reference to the person it belongs to then you can unlock these things.

What I learned is that by the time a person is a 30-40 year-old adult, they've experienced enough (probably even by age 21 or so) to reveal their correct Asc by transits of Uranus angular to the correct Asc. These angular Uranus transits quicken, or at least, disrupt the normal rhythm and patterns of the person's life so that things abnormal or unusual occur during about a 2-year period during the transit. So I look for this during an initial client intake. It is often actually easy to arrive at. A two year period of disturbance in the stability of relationships/work/home life. Very often when you have t.Uranus square the (correct) Asc it will be preceded or followed by a conjunction or opposition to the (correct) MC, giving further clues to the correct Asc.

Also helpful are angular transits by Jupiter. This one is how I discovered my mom's correct Asc. She had no idea what time of day she was born and no document or anyone with any memory of the timing of the event. After proper study of the Asc Signs, it was obvious Aries is hers. After looking at dates of moves (via dad's memory and mine) while I was growing up a pattern emerged. She is the family leader, the impetus of decision-making. On dates of moves Jupiter and/or Uranus were in mid-late degree areas, especially Cardinal signs. I've since seen a similar pattern that allows me to adjust the charts of others.

To narrow down the correct degree you'll have to rely on transits by quicker moving planets, Sun, Mercury, Moon, Mars. These are the planets that time actions to within 1* or so. See Planets in Transit by Robert Hand and really study the Rules for Transit Timing. I've seen some astrologers I know here online who don't and they leap to conclusions with errant rectifications as a result. (Even R. Hand uses an incorrect birth chart for Nixon, included in book. Nixon's correct AS = 19CAN52 with t.Pluto opp n.MC at the time of his resignation).

So I don't need the secret Incarn formulas. I've learned to make adjustments to find the Asc degree using Transits for significant life events, and to find tune that using secondary progressions.

So while I think some of the others here have actually answered the question better - in terms of astrological concepts - I find the only answer that matters is to the question that matters, which is, "What were the birth chart specifics (Asc, MC) of this specific person, so that I can understand and interpret their original intentions/history before incarnating?"

That question I can answer. There is no reliable formula (outside the "secret" ones I mentioned) or time interval that applies to everyone.
 
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Astro-Intuitive

Well-known member
This is an extremely interesting thread! I am glad to see other astrologers (such as Cosmiccradle) employing the INCARN technology and methods of horoscope verification and total functionality. I would like to know more about what specific books by Alan Leo mentioned the Sun-Moon-ASC relationship to the precise moment horoscope elements become "fixed" in a horoscope. (Willner mentions a connection among the Sun-Moon-Uranus.)

I was fortunate enough to get to know John Willner for a short time before he died (although, through e-mail correspondence - not in person) and to purchase the program from Fred Bickum (updated as Incarn2) shortly thereafter. I also agree that this method needs to be explicity known, because I think it will help so many astrologers (and the astrological community as a whole) to raise astrology to the standard of precision and practical application to which it is highly capable (and attainable).

The only other thing that I know plays a role in the moment cosmic elements become fixed in a horoscope - other than the Sun-Moon-Uranus connection - is the zodiacal signs of Cancer and Sagittarius (which have a correlation to the Pineal and Pituitary glands, respectively, in the human body).

If anyone has more insights into this I'd be very much interested in hearing more.

Shaun
 

Cosmiccradle

Well-known member
This is an extremely interesting thread! I am glad to see other astrologers (such as Cosmiccradle) employing the INCARN technology and methods of horoscope verification and total functionality. I would like to know more about what specific books by Alan Leo mentioned the Sun-Moon-ASC relationship to the precise moment horoscope elements become "fixed" in a horoscope. (Willner mentions a connection among the Sun-Moon-Uranus.)

I was fortunate enough to get to know John Willner for a short time before he died (although, through e-mail correspondence - not in person) and to purchase the program from Fred Bickum (updated as Incarn2) shortly thereafter. I also agree that this method needs to be explicity known, because I think it will help so many astrologers (and the astrological community as a whole) to raise astrology to the standard of precision and practical application to which it is highly capable (and attainable).

The only other thing that I know plays a role in the moment cosmic elements become fixed in a horoscope - other than the Sun-Moon-Uranus connection - is the zodiacal signs of Cancer and Sagittarius (which have a correlation to the Pineal and Pituitary glands, respectively, in the human body).

If anyone has more insights into this I'd be very much interested in hearing more.

Shaun

Although the Sun-Moon-Uranus has already been mentioned before, someone is yet to say how this contact looks like or takes place in the horoscope. As for the Sun-Moon-ASC what you mention sounds like the Truitine of Hermes, or at least the Moon-Asc part.
 

Caro

Well-known member
this is fascinating.

my niece was born premature - 2 months. she has mainly fire but does have some water.her mother was involved in a car accident which brought on the labour.

however this thread then also got me thinking about spirits and death! I think there is a link. I guess we are less comfortable with this side of the spirit leaving the body.

my dad died July 1996 at the time Sun in cancer etc - I need to check the chart of this. but I saw his spirit leave his body which was sometime after he had 'officially died' . this started a whole chain of stuff for me and an interest in spirituality etc.

I found the whole thing quite comforting,
 

Cosmiccradle

Well-known member
this is fascinating.

my niece was born premature - 2 months. she has mainly fire but does have some water.her mother was involved in a car accident which brought on the labour.

however this thread then also got me thinking about spirits and death! I think there is a link. I guess we are less comfortable with this side of the spirit leaving the body.

my dad died July 1996 at the time Sun in cancer etc - I need to check the chart of this. but I saw his spirit leave his body which was sometime after he had 'officially died' . this started a whole chain of stuff for me and an interest in spirituality etc.

I found the whole thing quite comforting,
I'd be interested in the chart of your niece, if she has any planets rising. I'm going to collect and sift through the http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24388
thread. If you have anything add it there. Also in regards to this thread it would be great if you have any information to add.
 

Kannon

Well-known member
This is an extremely interesting thread! I am glad to see other astrologers (such as Cosmiccradle) employing the INCARN technology and methods of horoscope verification and total functionality. I would like to know more about what specific books by Alan Leo mentioned the Sun-Moon-ASC relationship to the precise moment horoscope elements become "fixed" in a horoscope. (Willner mentions a connection among the Sun-Moon-Uranus.)

I was fortunate enough to get to know John Willner for a short time before he died (although, through e-mail correspondence - not in person) and to purchase the program from Fred Bickum (updated as Incarn2) shortly thereafter. I also agree that this method needs to be explicity known, because I think it will help so many astrologers (and the astrological community as a whole) to raise astrology to the standard of precision and practical application to which it is highly capable (and attainable).

The only other thing that I know plays a role in the moment cosmic elements become fixed in a horoscope - other than the Sun-Moon-Uranus connection - is the zodiacal signs of Cancer and Sagittarius (which have a correlation to the Pineal and Pituitary glands, respectively, in the human body).

If anyone has more insights into this I'd be very much interested in hearing more.

Shaun

Shaun,

You're lucky to have been able to communicate with John Willner before he died. I missed out and was really sad a couple years ago when I learned he'd died a few years previous. I'd hoped to meet him in person.

I don't have the Incarn software and I've lost touch with Fred Bickum. Do you know anything about him now? I haven't been able to get an email response from him for quite a while.

I think I've already put my insights into this thread. I'll pretty much share everything I've learned. I don't keep secrets. Since I have not been able to spend $500 on Incarn2 (or didn't want to), I determined to learn how to determine the same Asc results (at least within a degree). It starts with knowing your signs really well. Unfortunately most professional astrologers don't, and I had to have some hard lessons from Bickum by email before I turned things around and sharpened my skills considerably.

You can email me anytime about your work and anything else you'd like to say.

Peace
 

Astro-Intuitive

Well-known member
Shaun,

You're lucky to have been able to communicate with John Willner before he died. I missed out and was really sad a couple years ago when I learned he'd died a few years previous. I'd hoped to meet him in person.

I don't have the Incarn software and I've lost touch with Fred Bickum. Do you know anything about him now? I haven't been able to get an email response from him for quite a while.

I think I've already put my insights into this thread. I'll pretty much share everything I've learned. I don't keep secrets. Since I have not been able to spend $500 on Incarn2 (or didn't want to), I determined to learn how to determine the same Asc results (at least within a degree). It starts with knowing your signs really well. Unfortunately most professional astrologers don't, and I had to have some hard lessons from Bickum by email before I turned things around and sharpened my skills considerably.

You can email me anytime about your work and anything else you'd like to say.

Peace


Hi Kannon,

Fred has been traveling around the world on his boat he built (or several boats he built) for the past couple of years. I am not sure if he is in the States now, because I haven't spoken to him in a while. I just tried contacting about a week ago but will e-mail you with his contact information. Also, I'll be happy to answer any questions you might have about INCARN, John Willner and his astrological insights. Other than John, Fred is the only other astrologer who probably knows the most about INCARN.

Take care,
Shaun
 

Cosmiccradle

Well-known member
Soul enters the body
When sperm fuses with ovum
Just before birth
Forty days after conception
Quickening
Does not exsist, it is the breath of God.
Comes and goes (choice of body is not yet decided)
 

Kannon

Well-known member
The 'higher authority' is your Soul - the REAL YOU. Not the human you in a state of amnesia.

FREE WILL. It is ONLY the Soul that has choice as to when it incarnates. We may get input, but it is our choice.

However, just as when going from your house to another's, a door must be opened. We cannot just blast through to this dimension at any moment. It first cooperates with the Universal order of things, which Superstring Theory is starting to put into scientific terms. It also cooperates with biology, but biology does not define it. It is the manifestation of it.
 
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