Ukpoohbear
Well-known member
‘Find what you love and let it kill you.’
— Charles Bukowski
— Charles Bukowski
Doom & Gloom
- Thread starter Ukpoohbear
- Start date
Ukpoohbear
Well-known member
Translated by Ted Hughes.
Ukpoohbear
Well-known member
Names
She was Eliza for a few weeks
When she was a baby -
Eliza Lily. Soon it changed to Lil.
Later she was Miss Steward in the baker's shop
And then 'my love', 'my darling', Mother.
Widowed at thirty, she went back to work
As Mrs Hand. Her daughter grew up,
Married and gave birth.
Now she was Nanna. 'Everybody
Calls me nanna,' she would say to visitors.
And so they did - friends, tradesmen, the doctor.
In the geriatric ward
They used the patients' Christian names.
'Lil,' we said, 'or Nanna,'
But it wasn't in her file
And for those last bewildered weeks
She was Eliza once again.
— Wendy Cope
— http://www.leonardcohenforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=3783
She was Eliza for a few weeks
When she was a baby -
Eliza Lily. Soon it changed to Lil.
Later she was Miss Steward in the baker's shop
And then 'my love', 'my darling', Mother.
Widowed at thirty, she went back to work
As Mrs Hand. Her daughter grew up,
Married and gave birth.
Now she was Nanna. 'Everybody
Calls me nanna,' she would say to visitors.
And so they did - friends, tradesmen, the doctor.
In the geriatric ward
They used the patients' Christian names.
'Lil,' we said, 'or Nanna,'
But it wasn't in her file
And for those last bewildered weeks
She was Eliza once again.
— Wendy Cope
— http://www.leonardcohenforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=3783
Ukpoohbear
Well-known member
DOUBT (helps the soul grow)
— Sophia Cycles
— Sophia Cycles
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Ukpoohbear
Well-known member
Ukpoohbear
Well-known member
Ukpoohbear
Well-known member
Approx 8 minutes in to this interview about Eddie Fisher’s singing career, he mentions one of the reasons the public fell out of love with him is because he ‘loved love’ and women distracted him.
He mentions ET and how she has ‘forgotten’ the love they had for each other. He goes on to say that he has not forgotten and he thinks they will be reunited in the next life.
It’s quite sad but he had so many faults as a partner and a father, I don’t feel sorry to him but I relate to how he feels. Let’s face it, most of us will relate more to Eddie Fisher’s experience of love rather than ET.
ET has so many people who loved her and who will be waiting and wishing to be reunited with her in her next life, no wonder she has ‘forgotten’ Eddie.
ET received her own comeuppance though - she had plenty of her own heart break in her life and alcohol and drugs caught up with her and took away her beauty early. This was all compensated for with her great effort with her AIDS charity work though.
Eddie is remembered as a joke and a d-head though; the forgotten lover.
Karma chooses no favourites though, we all get our comeuppance’s in the end. It’s just that, I relate more to Eddie’s story than I do ET’s but as a forgotten lover, his story will never be seen through anyone’s eyes except his own.
I’m not interested in his music career, just his part to play in the ET drama.
Ukpoohbear
Well-known member
IleneK
Premium Member
I think this is an unnecessarily cruel assessment of Eddie Fisher and a rather idealized one of Elizabeth Taylor, both of whom neither you nor I have met. I give you that Fisher was a bit of a schlemiel. But she fell in love with him for a time, like she did with so many others, including her, I believe, other 4 husbands.
Taylor had her own set of problems, thinking she was more than an ordinary person, different from Fisher's problems, but still in the end, she was just some person. Like you and me.
Nothing wrong with that....
Ukpoohbear
Well-known member
I disagree with your assessment that my assessment is unfair - I list Elizabeth Taylor’s faults and outline her own karma.
I think I am giving Eddie Fisher more airtime that what people usually give ti him, usually he is just a ‘footnote’ in the Elizabeth Taylor-Richard Burton love drama. He is also remembered as a not very nice man with no redeeming qualities.
In my assessment, I actually say I relate more to Eddie than I do Elizabeth, purely from the ‘forgotten lover’ angle.
I do very much agree that it must be remembered that I did not know either of them, and I wasn’t even around during the time they were famous, which makes me even less of a reliable fan.
From what I have learnt though, Elizabeth Taylor is remembered by the people who knew her as being very kind and generous, which is quite telling that she is not remembered for her beauty, considering she was known as the most beautiful woman in the world. She is known for having a big heart, by her friend’s.
I have not heard anything from Eddie’s friends, but his daughter, Carrie Fisher, remembers him as a lousy and absent Father. The only time he was a good Father was when he was so besotted by Elizabeth, he was a good Father to her children, while they were together. When his relationship with Elizabeth ended, he did not learn his lesson and he cheated on his future partner’s and continued to be an absent Father.
I don’t know any redeeming qualities about Eddie Fisher. In the comments below this video posted on YouTube, one person noted that he got his children’s ages wrong - he said his son was older than his daughter Carrie, but the commenter noted that Carrie is actually the eldest one.
So I would say Elizabeth has a lot more redeeming qualities than Eddie, like her AIDS work, although she had just as many fault’s. I mean, she was a husband snatcher, twice.
I still think I was fair but I like having a discussion about it with someone.
Edit: I would also like to make an admission that I do personally have a tendency to idealise women and be critical towards men, so you were probably on to something tbh.
I think I am giving Eddie Fisher more airtime that what people usually give ti him, usually he is just a ‘footnote’ in the Elizabeth Taylor-Richard Burton love drama. He is also remembered as a not very nice man with no redeeming qualities.
In my assessment, I actually say I relate more to Eddie than I do Elizabeth, purely from the ‘forgotten lover’ angle.
I do very much agree that it must be remembered that I did not know either of them, and I wasn’t even around during the time they were famous, which makes me even less of a reliable fan.
From what I have learnt though, Elizabeth Taylor is remembered by the people who knew her as being very kind and generous, which is quite telling that she is not remembered for her beauty, considering she was known as the most beautiful woman in the world. She is known for having a big heart, by her friend’s.
I have not heard anything from Eddie’s friends, but his daughter, Carrie Fisher, remembers him as a lousy and absent Father. The only time he was a good Father was when he was so besotted by Elizabeth, he was a good Father to her children, while they were together. When his relationship with Elizabeth ended, he did not learn his lesson and he cheated on his future partner’s and continued to be an absent Father.
I don’t know any redeeming qualities about Eddie Fisher. In the comments below this video posted on YouTube, one person noted that he got his children’s ages wrong - he said his son was older than his daughter Carrie, but the commenter noted that Carrie is actually the eldest one.
So I would say Elizabeth has a lot more redeeming qualities than Eddie, like her AIDS work, although she had just as many fault’s. I mean, she was a husband snatcher, twice.
I still think I was fair but I like having a discussion about it with someone.
Edit: I would also like to make an admission that I do personally have a tendency to idealise women and be critical towards men, so you were probably on to something tbh.
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david starling
Well-known member
Could he sing? I could YouTube him singing, but would it be worth it?
Ukpoohbear
Well-known member
The comments left by people on YouTube speak very highly of his singing - very highly, so I think he is probably worth a listen to. I’m not interested in his singing career, just his part to play in the Taylor-Burton drama, so I haven’t listened myself.
david starling
Well-known member
I like that you're "character-based" rather than "accomplishment-based".
IleneK
Premium Member
I did not say you were unfair. I said it felt unnecessarily cruel. He was just an average guy who f****** up. So who hasn't? Including Liz, many times, like you said, for breaking up marriages and so on. And still she is not the first nor will she be the last to break up a marriage.
If you have lived long enough, you will see that she is remembered most for her beauty, certainly way more than her acting, which did get kind of good as she got middle aged. And she certainly did good for sure with AIDS awareness.
But if Elizabeth Taylor is remembered over any significant course of time, which I sincerely doubt, it will be for her beauty. It was remarkable. For what that is worth. Which is not much.
Your friend,
Ukpoohbear
Well-known member
Yes, in the end, they were just human.
We will remember Elizabeth Taylor for her beauty. Elizabeth’s friend’s don’t remember her for her beauty though, which I think speaks a lot about who she was as a person. She wasn’t vain.
I don’t know what Eddie’s friend’s remember him as, might be worthwhile looking at his chart for some redeeming qualities. I don’t know of any myself except one you just pointed out- he was human.
Ukpoohbear
Well-known member
Here is Eddie Fisher’s chart on the date he married Elizabeth. Transit Pluto conjunct his Venus, poor guy. Elizabeth was also a Pisces stellium and his 7th house is ruled by Pisces.
For redeeming qualities, his Venus was conjunct his Neptune so he was probably very romantic and sweet. With that 12th house stellium included, he could have been really spiritual, but he chose drugs instead. I guess fame is a difficult game to play. He said he hated the notoriety that happened with the Taylor-Burton drama. Poor guy was no doubt absolutely devastated and he had to eventually accept not only was it over, but she didn’t even want to remember him (his words). Jupiter in 9th, another chance to be spiritual that he missed.
I don’t feel too sorry for him, he married Elizabeth Taylor in her prime. He is quoted as saying if, on the first night he slept with Elizabeth, if he had known all the hurt and drama that it would cause him, he said he would still go ahead with it - now that’s a Venus-Neptune glutton for punishment that you have to admire him for.
Venus conjunct Neptune in 12th house - the love martyr
For redeeming qualities, his Venus was conjunct his Neptune so he was probably very romantic and sweet. With that 12th house stellium included, he could have been really spiritual, but he chose drugs instead. I guess fame is a difficult game to play. He said he hated the notoriety that happened with the Taylor-Burton drama. Poor guy was no doubt absolutely devastated and he had to eventually accept not only was it over, but she didn’t even want to remember him (his words). Jupiter in 9th, another chance to be spiritual that he missed.
I don’t feel too sorry for him, he married Elizabeth Taylor in her prime. He is quoted as saying if, on the first night he slept with Elizabeth, if he had known all the hurt and drama that it would cause him, he said he would still go ahead with it - now that’s a Venus-Neptune glutton for punishment that you have to admire him for.
Venus conjunct Neptune in 12th house - the love martyr
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david starling
Well-known member
How about Eddie versus Joe in the looks department?
IleneK
Premium Member
Yes, Liz's Sun Merc is conjunct his desc.
I can only speak for myself as Vi rising. My husband's Pis Sun is in my 7th and it was a done deal the first evening I met him. A done deal for me. Most likely like Liz with Eddie, def not a done deal for him. I do empathize with him.
Ukpoohbear
Well-known member
For me personally, Joe DiMaggio. I just really don’t like Eddie Fisher so it’s colouring my view on him although, Eddie is probably better ‘conventionally’ looking.
They both got (and then lost) the woman of their dreams but only Joe redeemed himself.
Now, Richard Burton, he is an interesting character. A complicated, tortured, poetic soul. Listening to his interviews is fantastic. Both on his own and in an interview with Elizabeth Taylor.
Ukpoohbear
Well-known member
Years before Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton famously fell in love on the set of Cleopatra, they met at a party in Hollywood. Burton is a terrific writer and here is a description of the first time he ever met her —
— https://cinebeats.wordpress.com/2008/09/13/burtons-first-encounter-with-taylor/
— https://cinebeats.wordpress.com/2008/09/13/burtons-first-encounter-with-taylor/