DNA and our natal charts with ancestry


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As Thomas Jefferson 3rd President:


American statesman and U.S. President 1801-1809, an outstanding statesman and man of letters noted for his contributions to many legal and historical government documents. An idealist, he was rigid and doctrinaire, but also complex and contradictory. A racist, he had a slave mistress who bore him many children. Historians are fascinated but often repelled by his humorless self-righteousness.

DNA tests taken in 1998 confirmed that Jefferson fathered at least one, if not all six of the children born to his slave, Sally Hemings.
(note: It has since been changed to confirm, he fathered all of Sally's children) according to the historians at Monticello)

Thomas Jefferson died on 4 July 1826 at age 83 in Monticello, Virginia.




natal chart of the Reincarnated T.J. (Thomas Jefferson) as T.J. Davis (nephew of Gladys Davis) Mr. Cayce's Secretary:



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I had a friend in Va. Beach who was a hippie back in those days in the late 1960s., and went to college there. She told me that she used to "hang out at the beach" with TJ and the others around the A.R.E. then....he would regal them with stories of all kinds. His travels to Morocco, to the French Riviera, it seems he'd go everyplace that once upon a time long ago Jefferson and other lives he had lived had also wandered and been. In this lifetime he didn't really amount to much as I recall. The readings were concerning about just this ....worried that he wouldn't "find himself". Prior to the hippies, there was what was called "the beat generation" and this was the generation TJ had been born into. I don't think he married or had children or if he did it was later in life so I didn't hear about them. I only heard of the wastrel days.
People do change however, as they age, not everyone stays the same when they hit 40 or later so its possible he too changed and made something of his life. We simply don't know.

As I vaguely recall, he had also learned through his family as he was growing up, Mr. Cayce's readings said he had also been Alexander the Great which also explained many of these exotic trips and places he loved to travel and go to.
Apparently the readings all "went to his head" was the feedback....in this lifetime.


Note the natal chart: Saturn in Pisces with all its squares (very little if any self-discipline) Jupiter (a great position once in Sagittarius, well read, all squandered) part of a T square with Saturn - Neptune.

I'll try and find Cayce's reading on the astrology if there is any interest!


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I have moved all non-astrological posts to chat to a new thread:

Please ONLY post on astrology in the main astrology Forum in EVERY post you make.

Back to Astrology,



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I have moved all non-astrological posts to chat to a new thread:

Please ONLY post on astrology in the main astrology Forum in EVERY post you make.

Back to Astrology,

How would we find the new thread? Do you have a url for it?

Thanks in advance.,

[Click on the link "Thoughts About Jefferson" and you will be taken to the posting - Moderator]
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Non-astrological posting on Wollstonecraft moved here:


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Keeping the thread DNA with Astrology - I combined Edgar Cayce and myself this week simply by chance - as it were.

A few people including Waybread mentioned finding interest in combining astrology with DNA information of ancestors- so I thought I'd try this one out if anyone knows how to find Cousins in a Relationship Chart. In my case, the tree comes up from my father's side and his father's side of his family. Two paternal sides? (This is just for fun, as a trial run) -


I joined (after a 20 year hiatus) another Edgar Cayce Study Group) .....not knowing that there was one not too far from where I live now that is active.
I prefer to meditate in a group setting, rather then alone, for I'm not as disciplined when its alone as I am at a set time in a group. The last group I attended was before I moved in 1998-2003.....and prior to that one, in Maryland in my own home in the 70s and again in the late 80s and 90s when we moved.....So I's always been in or had my own Study Group for Cayce. I'm thrilled to find one close by because I don't drive much anymore and this one is about 17 minutes one way.

So I get there, with my husband of course driving, (he goes to the local McDonald's of course, lol - ) for the 1.5 hr. or whatever - and I find out that the lady who hosts it for the past 15 yrs who also has the group meeting in her Reeiki Massage Therapy place (a really nice office with 3 rooms) .....very nice for meditating.....has cancer and although she will be letting us use the facility in the future, she herself, will not be coming for awhile. :(
Others will either be vacationing in the terrible heat of the summer in Phoenix, going to cooler climes, OR in the case of one woman, going back to work after retiring and is taking a break. So from 6 of us it's now down to 3 of us in 2 weeks :( ......plus the ZOOM people who tune in each meeting from other States.

I've read and come to believe you are in life "where you need to be at the time you need to be there" and so I'll just accept what it is .....and do what I can with it. Perhaps the group survival until it grows again, will require my presence, I just don't know. It is what it is for now. (but I do wish the others I just met would return, they are very nice people, and I really looked forward to getting to know them)

One woman younger then I am, who will be coming back told me she did her DNA test too, but all rec'd was the names of some distant relatives and a map. Well really, that is all you get. However, when I see her this Saturday perhaps I'll tell her (after I show her what I just found out on GENI.com owned by Ancestry.com I think) .....that IF you put the time and effort (and believe me it does require TIME and EFFORT) to make up TREES (I only do the FREE trees online) on various Tree sites, they (the tree sites) will then use that DNA info from your test to add on and you'll be shocked at just how much information they glean from it....

As TIME goes by, the MORE you add to your TREE (especially on the GENI.com TREE you start (all free just ignore any of their pop ups or ads for upgrades because ALL of them will try and sell you upgrades of course) you will see as I do, you get so much information you will not be able to handle anymore coming in. The thing you have to remember, is (and a woman Astrologer - Genealogist told me this about Geni) the "more you put into your TREE" the more they find for you..........."

For example: I mentioned on this thread that she was related to "Old King Cole" o_O Yes, there really was such a King .....but they said she wasn't related and it wasn't until she "grew her tree" with more information she gathered from other TREES she started elsewhere, that finally, Geni. caught up with that info (they all share info apparently)......and now shows she is related....Same happened with me. (but not with King Cole, lol

Here are the Free Tree Sites I started after I took the DNA Test (actually I started a free Ancestry.com Tree a few years before I think....but never bothered with it. I always hoped somewhere, somehow, to learn about my paternal grandmother I never knew because we never knew anyone from my father's side of the family only my mother's side.
Now, all these people I've been sharing here seem to be from my father's side.

For the longest time, even AFTER the DNA test I took for $40.00 (thru Heritage.com) I think it went on Sale cheaper on Valentine's Day)
I still had what I called "a brick wall" concerning my father's father. No family was showing up on his father's side of the tree - but when it finally did (takes patience for them to add on sometimes from other relatives trees......thru DNA) .......it was a tsunami of information and people, (thats why I"d never do an upgrade!

I had no idea, my father's people also came from England, I KNEW however that Edgar Cayce's father's relatives came from England through a biography I read of him....and through a rather higher estate family many years ago. I KNEW my husband's family (from Boston) came over on the Mayflower) and from England so that was no surprise.......only an expectation there....However, I was VERY surprised to find out I had many ancestors from England (almost none from my mother's side of the family as they were all France, Belgium, Canada and thru intermarriage, Indian.

Yesterday, I found out both my husband and I are both distant ancestral cousins of Edgar Cayce (through the English side of the Family)
What is interesting to me is that the TREE is different. With him, it's through Edgar's mother Carrie (see graph names) and through my side - it's Edgar's father the Squire (as they called him)
I knew already my husband and I were "distant cousins" from all this DNA research that comes in ......and my husband had no DNA work done!
He was VERY surprised, but I wasn't once I learned I had all these English ancestors it only made sense. (also German, Irish, Scots which he does not) Probably explains why my BML is cj. the Galactic Center

(thats what I mean by trees and DNA work that is added via others) and names......so don't waste money, it's done for you~ after the initial investment of one time and a lot of trees (free trees and time)

1) Ancestry.com tree
2) Geni.com tree
3) FamilySearch.org (owned by Church of Latter Day Saints) a REALLY comprehensive good site) with lots of added info.
4) Wiki-Tree (very comprehensive nice site with forums attached) takes a while to learn how to use because it's different but does have Q & A forums....not owned by the others but has a lot of info.
(Find a Grave) is also a good place to search but they often have "hints" on these sites for them too......

In the beginning of my search (for my paternal relatives), I would have 2 or 3 of these trees open at once, and as info would be added by them (after my initial adds) I would then add it onto the other trees -and they'd then grow exponentially or "catch up"

Another "Tip" about Geni.com the Astrologer - Genealogist woman (Jude Cowell) told me, is that if you look up anyone halfway famous (as I did with Edgar Cayce here) and then add Geni.com next to their name, and at the same time have your own Geni.com account opened, it will then tell you if there is a connection, or a path (either through blood or in laws. For me there was. But again, you have to have enough people on your tree first for the thing to work properly. I checked Edgar's wife Gertrude, but there was no relationship to her for either of us.
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This one I did is for my husband's tree - so he is connected via - Carrie Cayce ie. the mother of Edgar Cayce - ........from the English relatives to him
as a 10th cousin and mine is below but through my father's side and Cayce's father' Leslie's side. I thought it was rather strange or ironic perhaps just fate or destiny. Pisces and Jupiter seems to be a connecting theme. In my chart & husband's 9th house and Cancer - in Cayce = his Sun.
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Geni.com (above is Cayce's tree through his mother's line and my husband's intersecting tree line (his father's)
The Greenleafs were from England

For me it was through Sarah Eastburn who was from England and the Corbetts - intersecting with the Squire's (Leslie Cayce, father of Edgar)

What I read the other day is that the difference that Cayce gave in birth times, explains one being his physical birth the other the spiritual birth time:



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What's a definition of "spiritual birth time"?

I've always thought that materialistic, linear time doesn't work regarding the realm of Spirit.
I think what the person was referring to is the same as the late John Willner wrote about in his book, "The Perfect Horoscope" or perhaps when Cayce did his readings, it sometimes professed (such as in Gladys Davis Turner's reading, (she was his stenographer) when she was born, it was recorded wrong....because although they recorded here as such and such a time born, she reponded in life as a different time or a spiritual birth time which is sometimes as much as 4 hours difference from the physical birth time.

Point being the soul doesn't always enter the physical body at the exact moment of physical cry of the baby. So in effect, we might say on rare occasion what Cayce was doing was correcting somewhat a more correct birthtime in order to read a person's natal chart more precisely for their personality (much like rectifying or tweaking it) That way you can try both to see which time fits you better from your vantage point.

IF I get the time, perhaps I'll find a few lines from the readings that would explain better. John Willner is not easy to read, perhaps it's because he was a scientist and comes across as one in his writings: (read the reviews here)

He also said (thinking of abortion rights), that souls "hover about" the baby to be born, sometimes the soul to take the body isn't determined immediately at conception until birth like we think, from my recollection. There may be 2 or 3 which would fit vibration-ally speaking, the parental needs, the soul's needs, etc.
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As I mentioned, I'm now keeping this thread on topic about ASTROLOGY. I have moved the latest non-astrological thread here:

Back to Astrology,



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Here is another one, with a strange twist -
I always said, it's a SMALL WORLD - but I never knew just how small - or in retrospect, thought it was more just a saying for most people, (I'm still not sure) for the majority of folks.

But for me, I keep running into stories - and this one is a sad one with historic twists.

For those of us who remember the late 1970s SWEDISH GROUP OF 4 WOMEN & MEN called 'ABBA" their big hit "MONEY,MONEY,MONEY" in the U.S. ?

I found this by chance reading about the Lebensborn children in this article, and when I saw she was Swedish and realized I had Swedish relatives (and German), I decided to check. She is a 30th cousin (through blood) twice removed.


The song " Knowing Me, Knowing You', she said, had a special meaning.

After the war, the children produced through the program continued living their own lives — and only knew about their true identities upon entering adulthood.

One of the most famous children of the program is Anni-Frid Lyngstad — a Norwegian-Swedish singer. According to her, the outcomes of the program were marked as traitors and compelled to leave their native countries with their mothers. (They were considered as rats in Germany and elsewhere) ostracized) had Germany won the war, they would have been heroes.

She once married a Royal, and then became a Princess - but remarried it looks like accdg. to the biography -

see her at the bottom of tree - Her mother was in Hitler's program "Synni Lyngstad', but she didn't know this until she was an adult. These children created in Hitler's experiment for "The Master Race", didn't work out very well for the children - branded as "freaks" and ostracized - in life.

Anni-Frid Lyngstad's story is typical of the suffering of thousands. After her birth in November 1945 - the result of a liaison between her mother, Synni, and a German sergeant, Alfred Haase - the infant's mother and grandmother were branded as traitors and ostracized in their village in northern Norway. They were forced to emigrate to Sweden, where Anni-Frid's mother died of kidney failure before her daughter was two.

The child found her father by chance three decades later. They met for an emotional reunion in her Swedish villa, instigated by Benny Anderson, an Abba founder and Anni-Frid's then husband. He had been a German pastry cook in 1945....but she said it was too late in her life when she met him and only caused depression for her (read their story here):


(MISSING FATHER - EARLY DEATH OF MOTHER (AT AGE 2) SEVERE DEPRESSION LIFELONG - DAUGHTER DIES AGE 30-31 (Ann Lise Lotte-Frederiksson born: Feb. 25th, 1967 (before mother's fame)? died: Jan. 13th, 1998 (when requesting a Private Geni acct. for a Living person, when people die, their accounts become public automatically - ) Daughter was born in Sweden but died in Wayne Michigan.

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SAMPLE OF ABBA (KNOWING ME/KNOWING YOU) Said to have meaning to her -

As an Astrologer I would have told her (with Sun (father) and Moon (mother) her parents did come together in love for each other and brought her to life in a loving manner, which is so much better then many others in this world, even though the situation around them and program was horrible I do think they cared very much for each other. The mother seems to have been more in a daze ( so to speak) brainwashed so to speak, (Neptune in the 12th) conception house ruled by Gemini - with loss planet Uranus in the 8th house - while father 2nd house Sun in Scorpio (critical 22nd degree) obviously a soldier probably a private in the army (a pastry worker) in a self-undoing degree semi-square Neptune in the 12th . In spite of the parents and the background (the times, history etc) she seems to have made the best of her life) i.e. 10th house Sun's Rulers in his house shows she will be famous I suppose to some extent and so she was. T Square with Uranus (unusualness surrounding her conception) Moon (emotions) and Mercury (mindset and depression) speaks for itself.
She had 2 children, the daughter died age 30 in a car accident - and a son - with grandchildren to enjoy. She still is a member of the Royal family of Sweden as a Dowager although her past husband died.
(see Wikipedia) married multiple times: (life can certainly be worse then friends, fame, grandchildren & wealth :) she needs to count her blessings)

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Why "loss planet" for Uran in the 8th?:unsure:
I tend to read natal charts using the Tad Mann method when it's a (must be however) a Placidius, is best) uneven house cusps as this one above is to use the method. Its a conception house chart to birth and the 8th house shows us the mother's psychological and even physical surroundings, just before the conception.
For example in my husband's 8th house, his mother lost a child at her birth (he thinks they let the baby die because back in the 1940s, doctors allowed this to happen with Down's Syndrome children) if the parents felt they couldn't handle it. The mother stayed depressed her entire rest of her life over this of course but she really didn't believe she could handle it. (unlike today) So his chart has Uranus in the 8th in Gemini) I think it occurred about 12 or less months prior to his conception, but it may have been sooner thus his 9th house is 22nd deg. Cancer .....
Point being, Uranus is a loss degree, one of estrangement of some kind (not always the same for everyone of course) it might be a divorce,estrangement, a terrible accident? something of that nature, something very unusual.

8th = pre-conception
9th - conception
12th - birth

This method:

Tad Mann’s Theory​

A Review from the Feb/Mar 2004 Issue of The Mountain Astrologer

A New Vision of Astrology

A. T Mann has been working with his creation, Life Time Astrology, since 1972. (His book of the same name was published in 1984.) The preliminary chapters of his fine new book envelope the reader in the multi dimensional influences of his system — he draws from such resources as physics, biology, Gurdjieff, and Rodney Collin. Mann also reveals his insights into the movement of the solar system and the DNA molecule, along with explaining the “logarithmic progression of life” (i.e., early in life, our metabolism is fast and time passes slowly; as we age, “our metabolism slows down, [and] our time sense accelerates and compacts . Summarizing a key motif of his approach, Mann writes: “Our being in time unfolds from its essence, contained in the birth horoscope, through the spiraling solar system, synchronized by the planets as they continue their movements around the moving Sun.”


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Without knowing anything about the chart owner (which now of course I do), but reading it cold so to speak) using the Mann Method which I am not proficient at doing, (have not even finished his book


I'd say according to the ASC, the Moon & Sun being trine but the ASC being in a critical degree (for lying) in Libra rising (a negative) yet in love, a child born of love (not lust) but true love yet hampered by Neptune in the 12th perhaps, misled in what they partook in thinking it was the right thing to do (for the country)

Her mother (the Moon) in the 6th seems to me was not the dominant one but rather the one being used by (now we know) the authorities of Germany in the "house of service) Would an astrologer more proficient in Mann's method of reading, even Mann himself, be able to see that in this chart, the mother would die (house of chronic illnesses) when the child she bore is 2 yrs of age? ) I doubt it., because it doesn't appear at the ASC . (If Scorpio was here, he may have) suggested it would be my guess. Yet Scorpio would be the ASC in a Sidereal chart.

This bio should be updated - since she did have 2 children with Mr. Fredericksson:

Many of us are better at reading charts (after the fact) of some knowledge of events. For example, her daughter was 31 when she died according to Find a grave? in a car accident - in the USA
The natal chart above shows her 5th of children ruled by Saturn in the 10th closely cj. Mars (a debility) which is also close to the MC (the MC accdg to Mann's method is when the mother first realizes and tells someone she is pregnant and who she tells) be it the father, a close friend (sibling, parents, etc) Here with Saturn trine Sun in the 2nd it seems to be that Anni's mom told her bio dad (Sun in 2nd) and the news was taken gleefully, happily (perhaps money was exchanged by the govt?? I don't known enough about these babies to say if money was paid)


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Note: I mentioned 2 posts up, my husband has Uranus in the 8th of pre-conception. His sister was allowed to die at her birth in the hospital is what he believed. He (my husband) was born with his Moon in the 9th house in the very critical 29th degree of Cancer (his mother was quite frail and depressed for years.....helped herself with pain pills all her life) My husband is also very emotional, but with my own Cancer Rising ASC - I know how to behave to help him but we are opposites. It really helps to have Cancer Rising with a Cancer Moon person because you can empathize. Also helps him to have a 9th house Mars and his Moon trine to Jupiter. (which is Cancer's original Ruler) in the house of Jupiter.


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My 12th Cousin family tree 5 X removed (5 Great Grandparents removed): I hope I'm the opposite of his personality and think I am far more insightful with my natal planets all below the horizon - "Know thyself" whereas he simply spoke those words and preached them to others but didn't practice them from what I have read:

I'd like to try and see what we may from Thomas Jefferson's natal chart which admittedly won't be easy because we don't have a known time of birth. We can however, rely on the Sun and other planet positions and possibly within reason, the Moon that day. Plus we have the Cayce advantage of his reincarnation chart to compare for karma (if any) I'm thinking of these gross distortions of the man who was both a President of the early country as well as a Founding Father who worked with Washington to create what we now how. No question however about his intelligence that is a given! The question is his ethics and his character for which I do have a lot of historical information beyond just slavery.


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Here is also an astrodiesnst chart and short bio they wrote: Their default chart shows us the planets that were in Detriment and which were not so may help or harm his choices he made - to his betterment or otherwise -



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His Mercury would have been working against him, because of it's position in Pisces and we can see the planet aspect is semi-square to Venus with Venus in Taurus (it's own sign, so quite stron) is also questionable because of the aspect it made) Venus furthermore was square to Mars in Leo. A King in his caste? He dominated so to speak, his own throne at Monticello, Jefferson's Ambassadorship to France made him quite a few friends there of the highest estate of royalty.

Mars was in Leo and square Pluto which can be formidable to bear - while his Mars in Leo also squared his NN. (puts his SN (or past efforts( in Aquarius....and supposedly as I recall from the readings of Cayce, the same soul had once been Alexander the Great and other such historical people.
When he returned however, in 1936, he came back, everybit as intelligent as before (SN in 9th house Cancer perhaps looking for a home - always wandering) and NN in 3rd (always philosophizing- teaching) Mercury in Gemini 8degrees (Aldebaran suggests "honor in intelligence) in a stellium in 8th house all in Gemini except the Sun which was 0 Cancer. The 8th is supposedly, a difficult house in life, often a burden for someone to have a stellium of planets. 7th hs. ruled by Venus but marriages did not take (Uranus in the 7th) brought estrangement.

There appears to have been a Grand Square in the Reincarnation chart posted earlier given by EC. - and from what I've been told, a life of wandering, and struggle. Not for lack however, I think material resources were always there for him Intelligence providing early education and position when desired. The Grand Square is extremely difficult - but like other aspects we bear are indicators of karma we need to work on.

As Thomas Jefferson:
(born in the same state of Virginia)
The Dark Side of Thomas Jefferson -

When he drafted the Declaration of Independence Jefferson wrote that the slave trade was an "execrable commerce ...this assemblage of horrors," a "cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life & liberties." Yet when he had the opportunity in 1817 due to a bequest from Revolutionary War hero Thaddeus Kosciuszko, he did not free his slaves. Jefferson owned more than 600 slaves in his lifetime and at any given time approximately 100 slaves lived on Monticello. In 1792, Jefferson calculated that he was making a 4 percent profit per year on the birth of black children.Jefferson's nail boys alone produced 5,000 to 10,000 nails a day, for a gross income of $2000 in 1796, $35,000 in 2013.

"With five simple words in the Declaration of Independence -- 'all men are created equal' -- Thomas Jefferson undid Aristotle's ancient formula, which had governed human affairs until 1776: 'From the hour of their birth, some men are marked out for subjection, others for rule.' In his original draft of the Declaration, in soaring, damning, fiery prose, Jefferson denounced the slave trade as an 'execrable commerce ...this assemblage of horrors,' a 'cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life & liberties.'

"But in the 1790s, ... 'the most remarkable thing about Jefferson's stand on slavery is his immense silence.' And later, [historian David Brion] Davis finds, Jefferson's emancipation efforts 'virtually ceased.' ...

note: (his friend - the Revolutionary War hero Thaddeus Kosciuszko offered to PAY him for the release of his slaves and calculated a certain amount he would pay for each one's freedom - but Jefferson calculated he'd make more money by going into the reproduction business -

Kościuszko’s first version deserves quotation. Though the spelling and syntax are eye-straining, the crude yet eloquent prose convey how passionately the romantic Polish revolutionary had embraced abolitionism.

I beg Mr. Jefferson that in the case I should die without will or testament he should bye out of my money So many Negroes and free them,