DETERMINING The LORD Of The GENITURE Using TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY ONLY

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
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As far as to how to "..easily.." determine the LoG:
it's not an "..easy.." topic by any means!
Helena Avelar and Luis Ribiero encourage us to do the computation manually
at first to get a good handle on it, and not use a computer program.

Another way is to download the "..traditional.." version of the free program Morinus :)
you will also need to download and insta[l the Python program
which has some necessary "..libraries" in it, but it's no big deal.
Morinus has a module for doing almuten calculations for the chart
as well as for specific points
using a variety of methods that we can customize
according to different traditional authorities
It does give relative weighting to house placement

day and hour rulers, and other accidental dignities.


Ibn Ezra considers the accidental dignity of all of the planets in the chart :)
based on what house they are placed in.
Each house is assigned a point value from 12-1, in descending order
they are:
first, tenth, seventh, fourth, eleventh, fifth, second, ninth, eighth, third, twelfth, sixth.
Planets in the first house will receive 12 points
those in the tenth receive 11, in the seventh 10
and so on down the list with those in the sixth house receiving only 1 point.


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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
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An Introduction to SECT in Astrology :)




a detailed overview of the concept of SECT in astrology
which is the difference between day and night birth charts.
SECT is a fundamental concept used in Hellenistic astrology
- recovered over the past 30 years from translations of ancient texts. :)
This talk provides a broad introduction to SECT
first by establishing how pervasive the concept is in ancient astrology

and then to demonstrate how it works in practice through chart examples.


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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
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Lord of Geniture being domicile lord of sign following the Moon sign
was only mentioned by Firmicus Maternus :)
FIRMICUS says:
that the Lord of Geniture is the planet who rules the sign that follows the Moon sign.

So, if Moon is Taurus then Mercury Lord of Geniture since Mercury rules Gemini.


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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
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The concepts of:

Hyleg, alcoccoden, Almutem Figuris & Lord of the Geniture are very similar :)

The Almuten Figuris is the planet that has the most dignity in the five places
and other accidental considerations.

The Lord of Geniture is the planet that has the most essential & accidental dignity.

The sheer amount of work that goes into calculating the Almuten Figuris

makes it difficult to mix up with simpler calculations

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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
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Almutem Figuris is an old doctrine :)
where one planet according to certain calculations applied
receives the honors
to be the Ruler or Lord
of the Chart.

Robert Zoller applied the term AlmuteM instead of AlmuteN
in order to differentiate
the Lord of the Chart

from the Lord of certain house or place in the natal chart

such as Almuten Domus aka Ruler of a House

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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
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The Lord of Geniture
is the planet that has the most
essential
&

accidental dignity

ESSENTIAL DIGNITIES: THEORY & PRACTICE :)








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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
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The method of identifying the Lord of the Geniture
involves
considering the full range of essential dignities
so
rulership by sign, exaltation, Triplicity, term, face, House position
relative position to malefic a&benefic planets, and much more
is considered

- not just rulership by sign :)


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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
.Here are Porphyry’s considerations :)
for determining if one of the luminaries can become Predominator:

  • The luminary that belongs to the sect of the chart is preferred (Sun day day, Moon by night).
  • The luminary that is more angular is preferred over one that is in a less angular house.
  • The one that is more eastern in the chart (towards the rising sign) is preferred.
    • g. if the Sun is in the 1st house in a day chart, Sun is the Predominator.
    • Sun in the 9th with the Moon in the 1st, then Moon is Predominator.

  • If both luminaries are in cadent houses, then the Ascendant becomes Predominator.
UPDATE :)

This can only be done using whole sign. People who insist on using house systems be prepared to crash and burn. It's a simple drill-down.
The prenatal New/Full Moon is controller when Sun/Moon are together and on an angle.
The Asc is controller when both lights are below the horizon or both lights are in the 9th place.

The MC is controller when both lights are in the 3rd, 6th or 12th place. The Asc is your life. The MC is your vim, vigor and vitality. That's why we use the MC.
Moon controls when Sun is 9th place and Moon is in the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th or 10th place.

Sun controls from the 1st, 7th, 8th or 11th place (the 8th because Sun sextiles MC).

There are a few conditions when you'll have to guess:
1) 5th place Sun and 9th place Moon: the one closest by degree separating/applying to the Asc.
2) 9th place Sun and 11th place Moon: again the one with closest to the Asc applying/separating by degree
3) In a diurnal chart if it just happens to have a Leo Sun and Cancer Moon take the one in closest best aspect to the Asc or MC.
4) In a nocturnal chart if it just happens to have a Libra Sun and Scorpio Moon take the one in closest best aspect to the Asc (don't use MC).

Once you identify the controller then you identify the chart ruler and that will be the star that rules the term of the controller.
That is why we do not use Ptolemy's terms because they don't work. That is also why twins sometimes die years apart. The medical literature says the average birth-time for twins is 17 minutes. The Asc will move at least 4° possibly 5° in that might be just enough to move the Asc into another term.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
UPDATE /...cont :)

If the term ruler of the controller is below the horizon then you cannot use that controller. If the other light hasn't been rejected, then you look at its term ruler and if it's below the horizon then you cannot use it. You default to the term rulers of Asc, MC and prenatal Full/New Moon.
If the term rulers are all below the horizon and that is a possibility then the Asc is controller and there is no chart ruler.

If the term ruler of the controller is above the horizon but in aversion to the controller then there is no chart ruler or if the term ruler of the controller is in the 7th place then there is no chart ruler. In this instance there is an alternative method. If prenatal Moon is a New Moon count from the prenatal New Moon to the Moon and then count those degrees counter-clockwise from the Asc. The star that rules that term is the chart ruler. Otherwise count the distance from the prenatal Full Moon to the Moon and then count clockwise from the Asc and the term ruler of whatever degree that is becomes the chart ruler.

Use that method with the other fails and not because you think you're special and deserve a chart ruler. Not all charts are meant to have chart rulers and the world won't end if your chart isn't supposed to have one.

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DC80

Well-known member
Ibn Ezra considers the accidental dignity of all of the planets in the chart :)
based on what house they are placed in.
Each house is assigned a point value from 12-1, in descending order
they are:
first, tenth, seventh, fourth, eleventh, fifth, second, ninth, eighth, third, twelfth, sixth.
Planets in the first house will receive 12 points
those in the tenth receive 11, in the seventh 10
and so on down the list with those in the sixth house receiving only 1 point.

You do realize Ibn Idiot was a moron, right? He doesn't even understand the basic premise.

The correct order of places is: 1st, 10th, 7th, 4th, 11th, 5th, 9th, 3rd, 2nd, 8th, 6th and 12th.

For those who don't get it, go back, start over and learn the meaning of "first angles." Then you'll understand why Ibn Idiot is wrong and why you can ignore everything he says because he has no idea what he's doing.
 

DC80

Well-known member
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Lord of Geniture being domicile lord of sign following the Moon sign
was only mentioned by Firmicus Maternus :)

Would you like to know why? He didn't understand a lot of the concepts. He actually calls it the ruler of the chart which, well, chart ruler is what it should be called (I this thing about the genitive case).

What Maternus actually says is: "But others have figured from the Sun and Moon, arguing that the ruler of the chart is the one in whose terms the Sun and Moon are found, that is, the Sun in the daytime and the Moon at night."

What that tells you is Maternus didn't understand the concept because that is not the procedure. We don't automatically take the Sun just because the chart is diurnal. When Sun is in the 9th and Moon is in the 1st, 10th, 7th or 11th then Moon is the controller. He also doesn't understand there is no requirement for a chart ruler. If a chart doesn't have a chart ruler then that's just how it is.

That he didn't understand the concept is proven by the fact that he never comes back to it.

Maternus is quoting Thrysallus or Ballibus (or maybe both) and he doesn't get it right because they were talking about the prenatal Moon, not the Moon, and Maternus doesn't seem to understand it was only mentioned in passing because that is not how either of them calculated the chart ruler.

Then why mention it? It's how things were done. You had to give others their "props" or it was considered disrespectful like you peed in their olive oil or something.

The sign following Moon is about as stupid as picking the ASC ruler.
 

DC80

Well-known member

The method of identifying the Lord of the Geniture
involves
considering the full range of essential dignities
so
rulership by sign, exaltation, Triplicity, term, face, House position

relative position to malefic a&benefic planets, and much more
is considered
- not just rulership by sign :)

That's a corruption of the original technique thanks to the Arabs and Persians.

The Arabs and Persians allowed their religion to influence astrology. You just have to read Bonatti's vomitorium on mundane astrology because it takes you 10 years to figure out the ruler of the year and another 10 years to figure out the significator of the king/government.

The idea that those rulers have to be the stars in the most pristine condition is contrary to astrology. And you can ignore the idiot Rex Bills because Jupiter is not the significator of government. For 2,500 years the significator of the king/government has been and continues to be Saturn and the ruler of the 10th.

I'm sorry, but if the chart is nocturnal with a Pisces 10th and Jupiter is nocturnally placed in a nocturnal sign, namely Taurus in the 12th place and Jupiter is 100% out of sect, peregrine, retrograde, in the bounds of a malefic with Venus in aversion, in opposition to a Scorpio Sun, attacked by Mars and Saturn and a waning Moon then that's just how it is.

And if it's a natal chart with Moon in the 10th in the bounds of Jupiter then Moon is the controller and the 100% out of sect peregrine retrograde Jupiter in the bounds of a malefic with Venus in aversion, in opposition to a Scorpio Sun, attacked by Mars, Saturn and a waning Moon is the chart ruler and it sucks to be you.

Porphyry did not invent Porphyry Houses. They were in use centuries before he came along.

Take a chart. We'll use FDR. Ascending Degree is Virgo 23° and MC Point is Gemini 22°.

Take the distance. There's 7° left in Gemini, 30° in Cancer, 30° in Leo and 23° in Virgo. That's 90° and divide by 3 and you get roughly 30°.

So, the angular power zone is from the MC Point at Gemini 22° to Cancer 22°. Any star in that zone is considered angular in terms of its qualitative power. In FDR's chart that puts sect light Moon in the 10th with Mars. Any star between Cancer 22° and Leo 22° is considered succedent in power even though it might be in the 10th or 11th place, and any star between Leo 22° and the Ascending Degree is cadent even though it might actually be in the 11th or the 1st signs/places.

To the same when you take the distance from the Ascending Degree to the IMC Point and divide by 3.

That is Porphyry Houses and they were using them 3 centuries before Porphyry lived.

Now you can make sense of Antiochus and others:

A star is said to be the ruler whenever it should have more relationships of rulership in some one of the animal images. I mean relationships of house, exaltation, trigon, boundary, phase, or configuration.

If you use whole sign then every house starts at 0° (actually 1°) and that's not very satisfying not to mention it leads to identical and nonsensical results.

Look at FDR's chart with Ascending Degree at Virgo 23°.

According to Antiochus and others, the candidates for rulership of the ASC are:

1 pt for Mercury as sign ruler
1 pt for Moon ruling the earth trigon
1 pt for Venus ruling the earth trigon
1 pt for Mars ruling the earth trigon

Mercury is also the exaltation ruler so 2 pts total
Mars is also the bound ruler so 2 pts total

Now we look at "phase" which the stupid Arabs and Persians misinterpreted as faces or decans.

The decans/faces are not dignities and never were dignities.

The decans are a time-keeping system. How do you tell time at night? Can't use a sun-dial because there's no Sun. Whoever lived in pre-Greek Egypt (and nobody has a straight answer who that was) devised a system of telling time at night by the fixed-stars and fixed-star clusters/groups that rose over the horizon at night. The Hellenization of Egypt beings somewhere between 900-800 BCE and by 700 BCE it is very Hellenized.

The Greek word dekanos is how we get "decan" and the Greek word dekanos also means watchman/police officer. Why? I just told you why. You're in Thebes you're on watch at the city gate, what time do you make your rounds? More importantly how long before the next watch relieves you so you can go back to bed? You get out your little table of decans and see what stars are coming over the horizon and you can do that because there's no light pollution. It's darker than dark at 2:00 am.

Then Greek-speaking Canaanites stomped on the Assyrians and maybe the decans were transmitted from the Egyptian Greeks to them. Even those those were the Chaldeans, the Loser Lamestream Academia can't admit they're wrong and insist on calling them the Neo-Babylonians. Or the Greeks running the Persian government and the Greeks running the Persian army invaded and stomped on the Chaldeans and then invaded Greek Egypt and stomped on them. They brought the Dendera Zodiac with them.

And we know that because Persia lies in far northern latitudes and they could not see the fixed star Fomalhaut but the could see the fixed-star Altair.

So, you have the head of a bull (Taurus) and the tail of scorpion (Scorpio) and the mane and forelegs of a lion (Leo) and the wings and hindlegs of an eagle. That would be Aquila.

Anyway, decan/face is not one of the dignities but phase is.

Mars is in phase because he rises ahead of Moon. Mercury is not because Mercury is in the bounds of Saturn, Saturn is a diurnal star, ergo Mercury plays for Team Sun, and Mercury is an evening star, so he is not in his proper face. That makes Mars the Ascendant ruler.

For the sake of argument, suppose Mercury was a morning star (in his proper face). Now what?

We go to configuration. Mercury is in aversion to the ASC but Mars is in aspect by square so Mars is the Ascendant ruler.

For the sake of argument, what if Mercury was in the 5th? It wouldn't matter. The 10th place is superior so unless Mercury would be in the ASC he cannot rule the ASC in this chart.

What about the chart ruler? Well, according to Antiochus and Thrysallus and Ballibus, FDR's chart is nocturnal so Moon is the sect light and Moon is in the terms of Mars so Mars is what?

Go back to Maternus because he conflates the "Life-Giver" with the chart ruler:

When you look carefully at the Giver of Life, that is, the ruler of the chart, and you see in what house it is located, and in what kind of a sign, and in what degrees, and you also consider the ruler of the sign in which the Life-Giver is situated, in what sign and in what house and in what degree it is, and to what extent the Giver of Life and the benefic planets are aspected to the Sun and Moon, you will easily be able to delineate the whole character of this life.

The chart ruler and the Life Giver are two separate concepts that got conflated. There's no such thing as detriment. No such thing as fall. No such thing as accidental dignity or accidental debility and then add the dumbass Arabs and Persians and their silly stupid scoring systems and other nonsense like using the Lot of Fortune as the controller and it's no wonder people can even read charts.

Valens and others would say since Mars is in aversion to Moon FDR's chart has no chart ruler and not having a chart ruler isn't fatal.

Antiochus, Ballibus and Thrysallus would say the star having the most dignities in the Ascending Degree and the sect light is the chart ruler.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
That's a corruption of the original technique thanks to the Arabs and Persians.
That's useful to be aware of - thank you :)

The Arabs and Persians allowed their religion to influence astrology. You just have to read Bonatti's vomitorium on mundane astrology because it takes you 10 years to figure out the ruler of the year and another 10 years to figure out the significator of the king/government.

The idea that those rulers have to be the stars in the most pristine condition is contrary to astrology. And you can ignore the idiot Rex Bills because Jupiter is not the significator of government. For 2,500 years the significator of the king/government has been and continues to be Saturn and the ruler of the 10th.

I'm sorry, but if the chart is nocturnal with a Pisces 10th and Jupiter is nocturnally placed in a nocturnal sign, namely Taurus in the 12th place and Jupiter is 100% out of sect, peregrine, retrograde, in the bounds of a malefic with Venus in aversion, in opposition to a Scorpio Sun, attacked by Mars and Saturn and a waning Moon then that's just how it is.

And if it's a natal chart with Moon in the 10th in the bounds of Jupiter then Moon is the controller and the 100% out of sect peregrine retrograde Jupiter in the bounds of a malefic with Venus in aversion, in opposition to a Scorpio Sun, attacked by Mars, Saturn and a waning Moon is the chart ruler and it sucks to be you.

Porphyry did not invent Porphyry Houses. They were in use centuries before he came along.

Take a chart. We'll use FDR. Ascending Degree is Virgo 23° and MC Point is Gemini 22°.

Take the distance. There's 7° left in Gemini, 30° in Cancer, 30° in Leo and 23° in Virgo. That's 90° and divide by 3 and you get roughly 30°.

So, the angular power zone is from the MC Point at Gemini 22° to Cancer 22°. Any star in that zone is considered angular in terms of its qualitative power. In FDR's chart that puts sect light Moon in the 10th with Mars. Any star between Cancer 22° and Leo 22° is considered succedent in power even though it might be in the 10th or 11th place, and any star between Leo 22° and the Ascending Degree is cadent even though it might actually be in the 11th or the 1st signs/places.

To the same when you take the distance from the Ascending Degree to the IMC Point and divide by 3.

That is Porphyry Houses and they were using them 3 centuries before Porphyry lived.

Now you can make sense of Antiochus and others:

A star is said to be the ruler whenever it should have more relationships of rulership in some one of the animal images. I mean relationships of house, exaltation, trigon, boundary, phase, or configuration.

If you use whole sign then every house starts at 0° (actually 1°) and that's not very satisfying not to mention it leads to identical and nonsensical results.

Look at FDR's chart with Ascending Degree at Virgo 23°.

According to Antiochus and others, the candidates for rulership of the ASC are:

1 pt for Mercury as sign ruler
1 pt for Moon ruling the earth trigon
1 pt for Venus ruling the earth trigon
1 pt for Mars ruling the earth trigon

Mercury is also the exaltation ruler so 2 pts total
Mars is also the bound ruler so 2 pts total

Now we look at "phase" which the stupid Arabs and Persians misinterpreted as faces or decans.

The decans/faces are not dignities and never were dignities.

The decans are a time-keeping system. How do you tell time at night? Can't use a sun-dial because there's no Sun. Whoever lived in pre-Greek Egypt (and nobody has a straight answer who that was) devised a system of telling time at night by the fixed-stars and fixed-star clusters/groups that rose over the horizon at night. The Hellenization of Egypt beings somewhere between 900-800 BCE and by 700 BCE it is very Hellenized.

The Greek word dekanos is how we get "decan" and the Greek word dekanos also means watchman/police officer. Why? I just told you why. You're in Thebes you're on watch at the city gate, what time do you make your rounds? More importantly how long before the next watch relieves you so you can go back to bed? You get out your little table of decans and see what stars are coming over the horizon and you can do that because there's no light pollution. It's darker than dark at 2:00 am.

Then Greek-speaking Canaanites stomped on the Assyrians and maybe the decans were transmitted from the Egyptian Greeks to them. Even those those were the Chaldeans, the Loser Lamestream Academia can't admit they're wrong and insist on calling them the Neo-Babylonians. Or the Greeks running the Persian government and the Greeks running the Persian army invaded and stomped on the Chaldeans and then invaded Greek Egypt and stomped on them. They brought the Dendera Zodiac with them.

And we know that because Persia lies in far northern latitudes and they could not see the fixed star Fomalhaut but the could see the fixed-star Altair.

So, you have the head of a bull (Taurus) and the tail of scorpion (Scorpio) and the mane and forelegs of a lion (Leo) and the wings and hindlegs of an eagle. That would be Aquila.

Anyway, decan/face is not one of the dignities but phase is.

Mars is in phase because he rises ahead of Moon. Mercury is not because Mercury is in the bounds of Saturn, Saturn is a diurnal star, ergo Mercury plays for Team Sun, and Mercury is an evening star, so he is not in his proper face. That makes Mars the Ascendant ruler.

For the sake of argument, suppose Mercury was a morning star (in his proper face). Now what?

We go to configuration. Mercury is in aversion to the ASC but Mars is in aspect by square so Mars is the Ascendant ruler.

For the sake of argument, what if Mercury was in the 5th? It wouldn't matter. The 10th place is superior so unless Mercury would be in the ASC he cannot rule the ASC in this chart.

What about the chart ruler? Well, according to Antiochus and Thrysallus and Ballibus, FDR's chart is nocturnal so Moon is the sect light and Moon is in the terms of Mars so Mars is what?

Go back to Maternus because he conflates the "Life-Giver" with the chart ruler:

When you look carefully at the Giver of Life, that is, the ruler of the chart, and you see in what house it is located, and in what kind of a sign, and in what degrees, and you also consider the ruler of the sign in which the Life-Giver is situated, in what sign and in what house and in what degree it is, and to what extent the Giver of Life and the benefic planets are aspected to the Sun and Moon, you will easily be able to delineate the whole character of this life.

The chart ruler and the Life Giver are two separate concepts that got conflated. There's no such thing as detriment. No such thing as fall. No such thing as accidental dignity or accidental debility and then add the dumbass Arabs and Persians and their silly stupid scoring systems and other nonsense like using the Lot of Fortune as the controller and it's no wonder people can even read charts.

Valens and others would say since Mars is in aversion to Moon FDR's chart has no chart ruler and not having a chart ruler isn't fatal.

Antiochus, Ballibus and Thrysallus would say the star having the most dignities in the Ascending Degree and the sect light is the chart ruler.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Porphyry did not invent Porphyry Houses. They were in use centuries before he came along.
Take a chart. We'll use FDR. Ascending Degree is Virgo 23° and MC Point is Gemini 22°.
Take the distance. There's 7° left in Gemini, 30° in Cancer, 30° in Leo and 23° in Virgo. That's 90° and divide by 3 and you get roughly 30°.

So, the angular power zone is from the MC Point at Gemini 22° to Cancer 22°. Any star in that zone is considered angular in terms of its qualitative power. In FDR's chart that puts sect light Moon in the 10th with Mars. Any star between Cancer 22° and Leo 22° is considered succedent in power even though it might be in the 10th or 11th place, and any star between Leo 22° and the Ascending Degree is cadent even though it might actually be in the 11th or the 1st signs/places.

To the same when you take the distance from the Ascending Degree to the IMC Point and divide by 3.
That is Porphyry Houses and they were using them 3 centuries before Porphyry lived.
Thank you for providing that example :)


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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Now we look at "phase" which the stupid Arabs and Persians misinterpreted as faces or decans.
The decans/faces are not dignities and never were dignities. The decans are a time-keeping system. How do you tell time at night? Can't use a sun-dial because there's no Sun. Whoever lived in pre-Greek Egypt (and nobody has a straight answer who that was) devised a system of telling time at night by the fixed-stars and fixed-star clusters/groups that rose over the horizon at night. The Hellenization of Egypt beings somewhere between 900-800 BCE and by 700 BCE it is very Hellenized.

:)The Greek word dekanos is how we get "decan" and the Greek word dekanos also means watchman/police officer. Why? I just told you why. You're in Thebes you're on watch at the city gate, what time do you make your rounds? More importantly how long before the next watch relieves you so you can go back to bed? You get out your little table of decans and see what stars are coming over the horizon and you can do that because there's no light pollution. It's darker than dark at 2:00 am.
great explanation thankyou


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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Go back to Maternus because he conflates the "Life-Giver" with the chart ruler:
When you look carefully at the Giver of Life, that is, the ruler of the chart, and you see in what house it is located, and in what kind of a sign, and in what degrees, and you also consider the ruler of the sign in which the Life-Giver is situated, in what sign and in what house and in what degree it is, and to what extent the Giver of Life and the benefic planets are aspected to the Sun and Moon, you will easily be able to delineate the whole character of this life.
important - thank you
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
..
The chart ruler and the Life Giver are two separate concepts that got conflated. There's no such thing as detriment. No such thing as fall. No such thing as accidental dignity or accidental debility ... it's no wonder people can even read charts. Valens and others would say since Mars is in aversion to Moon FDR's chart has no chart ruler and not having a chart ruler isn't fatal.
okay - so it's not unheard of to have no chart ruler
and it's no cause for alarm - good news :)


Antiochus, Ballibus and Thrysallus would say the star having the most dignities in the Ascending Degree and the sect light is the chart ruler.
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