Deceptive people..

[Liquid Green]

yeh, i think your very right to a point.....i am someone who doesnt appear to be anything other than i am.....i dont see the point.....
wishful thinking has diasappointed me in the past....i like truth....its a good place to work from....but i also fear that my being who i am can get me in trouble.....with others ideals of who iam supposed to be.....if you can get what i am saying.......i dont want any trouble in my life.....just like everyone else

 

[gaer]

yeh, i think your very right to a point.....i am someone who doesnt appear to be anything other than i am.....i dont see the point.....

It's very different for me. With Virgo rising but no planets in Virgo and no planets in the 1st, people say I give a very negative impression when they meet me because I am very quiet and reserved. But not with people I know well.

wishful thinking has diasappointed me in the past....i like truth....its a good place to work from....

I hate lies. I never meant that I liked to be lied to. But it is also true that I have a very hard time accepting the world as it is. I always think about how it could be, if people were more intelligent, wiser, kinder…

but i also fear that my being who i am can get me in trouble.....with others ideals of who iam supposed to be.....if you can get what i am saying.......i dont want any trouble in my life.....just like everyone else

When I was young, I tried to adapt to what I thought other people wanted me to be. Or at least hid what did not fit their expectations.

I always admired people who didn't care about what other people think, although some go much too far in that direction. At this point I simply prefer to be alone rather than to be around anyone who does not like me as I am.

 

[Liquid Green]

I always think about how it could be, if people were more intelligent, wiser, kinder

me too.

At this point I simply prefer to be alone rather than to be around anyone who does not like me as I am.

i would prefer to be like this well aswell, but i guess i have the need now in my life to tow the line......my life is not only about me anymore, i have a son, so i do care what others think.....imagine what the world would be like if everone did what they wanted.........thats a bit off topic...but wanted to reply to what you have said.


I think self deception is a hard thing to avoid in society sometimes though...................for some reason that is more acceptable to others in this world than outright deception to others.............something for others to ponder

 

[gaer]

i would prefer to be like this well aswell, but i guess i have the need now in my life to tow the line......my life is not only about me anymore, i have a son, so i do care what others think.....imagine what the world would be like if everone did what they wanted.........thats a bit off topic...but wanted to reply to what you have said.

For me there are three groups of people:

1) Family and close friends, people I have some degree of intimacy with.
2) People I have to deal with socially, in some way, but that's all. That would include some of the people I work with, people I have to interact with in stores, people I have to deal with in business.
3) People who I do not have to be around unless I choose to.

I care a great deal what the people in the first group think about me. That includes, by the way, some of the people I've met in this forum.

In the second group, for that most part I care about getting what I want. Being nice is to my advantage, but I don't have to like these people. My thoughts are my own, and I actually prefer that they not know too much about me.

In the third group, I prefer to be pleasant. That's all.

Gaer


I think self deception is a hard thing to avoid in society sometimes though...................for some reason that is more acceptable to others in this world than outright deception to others.............something for others to ponder[/quote]

 

[Kingsley]

You can't help denial in personality, if we knew everything about ourselves all at once it would probably kill us. Its ok to genuinely "deceive" self however that might be, thats what creates the magical process of adventure in life.

kingsley

 

[Natasha]

You can't help denial in personality, if we knew everything about ourselves all at once it would probably kill us. Its ok to genuinely "deceive" self however that might be, thats what creates the magical process of adventure in life. kingsley

SO true. It is said that we often project our shadow (and sometimes our gold) onto others. As we grow and evolve we take back parts of ourselves.

It has been said that truth is also the interpetation of the tellor and it sounds logical to me. My truth can be different to someone elses and a third version will give a different story.
I feel here we are talking about the 1st 7th polarity and to some extend the Aries Libra polarity.
The more set in concrete we are about THE truth the more we are judgmental - I guess (of ourselves & others)
As I said before justifiying behaviour because we see our truth as the RIGHT truth - can take us down a scary path.

 

[gaer]

Funnily enough I have Mercury in Pisces square Neptune and I don't fall for these scams although my mother has Mercury in Taurus opposite Neptune, and she sends off for these prizes, plus she is taken in very easily to give money to people.

You have the Neptune square to Mercury/Moon. I have the conjunction to Sun/Moon. There are lots of differences, but we both have some "hard" Neptune aspects.

But that same conjunction is also trine to Uranus. Mercury trine Uranus is good for intuition. I have that aspect, and I think it helps me see through scams and tricks. I also think Saturn opposite Sun, in spite of the many negative things I have read about it, makes people cautious. So as usual we have to look at many factors.

What do you think balances with your Neptune aspects to protect you from being overly gullible?

Is honesty always the best policy, in some cases yes, but I will lie rather than hurt someones feelings at times, I think the world would be too brutally honest without Neptune. Some of us enjoy the illusion.

The line between tact and deception is a very fine line indeed!

The charts I have looked at of people who have been deceptive have had a full 12th house with Neptune in there aspecting personal planets.

I have not been close to liars, not since I was very young, and at that time I had no charts to look at.

I had one friend who had incredibly awful judgement and apparently could not tell the difference between "his truth" and anyone else's. He used people over and over again, always believing he was owed help and money—and he rarely if ever paid anyone back. He could also be very generous too, so it was a mixture, but his lack of self-honesty eventually made it impossible for me to remain friends with him.

He had Neptune right on the MC opposite Jupiter, and Mars/Uranus conjunct formed square to both ends, a T-square with Mars, Jupiter, Uranus and Neptune. I may post the chart at some other time. It's a classic case of someone out of touch with reality, someone who could not tell the difference between exaggeration and lying. The person he hurt most was himself.

Gaer

 

[lillyjgc]

Gaer,
*The person he hurt most was himself*
I think this is true of all liars- when you lie you feel *bad* about yourself-thats why I think lying has a lot to do with self-esteem....hence-houses 1 and 2...The *worse* one feels about oneself,the easier it is to continue the lying pattern...
I used to have a sag friend with very heavy aspects in her chart- I say *used to* because her lies caused other people pain so I ended the friendship, after * putting up with her lies* for over 16 years. Most of her lies involved her addictive and compulsive behaviour- lying to get money for drugs/alcohol and gambling. She lied to all her many partners, when she broke up with them she lied ABOUT them and the relationship.She *stalked* her ex for over 5 years.....a very dangerous and toxic person....
In her chart she has sun sag- jupiter in H2 opposite mars.Saturn in her H5 square both fortuna and pluto (in H2).Her mercury is right on h7 cusp inconjunct the moon in her first house (in Leo).....Uranus is in her first, square the MC and Neptune in her third....She is a pathological liar but almost all her lies are to conceal wrongdoings she has done.She doesnt care if her lying makes other people *look bad*-thats her intention much of the time, hence she looks *better than them*-these are classic signs of low self esteem. As I am gullible I used to believe her which caused a lot of problems in my life. Now, dont believe a word she says-although her lover totally trusts and believes her!!!(They ALL did!)...This lady has a grand square BUT also 5 trines......Even TALKING about liars makes me sick to my stomach.Looking at her chart affects me similarly.After I ended the friendship of course I became the subject of her lies.....again....Lies have a way of being revealed-in my mind, another deterrent! (But I do have a strong Saturn in my chart).
In the end, when people get caught up in a web of lies, the onus is on the *victim* of the lying to prove their credibility!!!(How unfair is that?).
Truth is the *reality upon which people agree*-liars mess with this reality and create doubts and confusions-Neptune's just GOTTA be in it somewhere!
Cheers, Lillyjgc

 

[gaer]

Gaer,
*The person he hurt most was himself*
I think this is true of all liars- when you lie you feel *bad* about yourself-thats why I think lying has a lot to do with self-esteem....hence-houses 1 and 2...The *worse* one feels about oneself,the easier it is to continue the lying pattern...

I agree if we are talking about people who do, in the end, hurt themselves. I won't get into the idea of karma, reincarnation, because then we might say that ultimately all people eventually pay for their lies.

But in this lifetime? I don't think so. I truly believe there are people who lie and cheat and get away with it, and I don't think they give a ****. Call them anything you want. My word is "sociopaths". They exist, and they prey on the rest of us whenever possible.

I used to have a sag friend with very heavy aspects in her chart- I say *used to* because her lies caused other people pain so I ended the friendship, after * putting up with her lies* for over 16 years.

Very similar to what I went through with the friend I mentioned.

Most of her lies involved her addictive and compulsive behaviour- lying to get money for drugs/alcohol and gambling.

Again, similar story for me.

She lied to all her many partners, when she broke up with them she lied ABOUT them and the relationship.She *stalked* her ex for over 5 years.....a very dangerous and toxic person....

The person I knew was less toxic to others and more toxic to himself.

As I am gullible I used to believe her which caused a lot of problems in my life. Now, dont believe a word she says-although her lover totally trusts and believes her!!!(They ALL did!)...This lady has a grand square BUT also 5 trines......Even TALKING about liars makes me sick to my stomach.Looking at her chart affects me similarly.

I haven't been gullibe since I was quite young, but people who cried "poor me" used to make me feel guilty when I would not bail them out. This particular person got into jackpot after jackpot financially, and I was too stupid to stop trying to help. I finally got wise a couple decades ago, or almost that long ago, and since then I have never allowed anyone to take advantage of me again that way.

The moment I find out that anyone is trying to play games with me, I'm gone. Can't STAND being played!

Gaer

 

[Kingsley]

I am liking the conversations Lilly, Gaer, Natasha and Ray. I feel hurt and angry when someone takes advantage of my good nature. It still happens to a degree within some professionals areas with competitive types. I can sense and hear it coming. I won't not be competitive to avoid such experiences however lessening the attraction to those types helps too.

kingsley

 

[Moulin]

How about scorpio rising conjunct neptune in 1st?

are they just private too or deceptive?

 

[gaer]

I am liking the conversations Lilly, Gaer, Natasha and Ray. I feel hurt and angry when someone takes advantage of my good nature. It still happens to a degree within some professionals areas with competitive types. I can sense and hear it coming. I won't not be competitive to avoid such experiences however lessening the attraction to those types helps too.

kingsley

I really like this: "however lessening the attraction to those types helps too."

We may not be aware of it, but to a great extent I believe we attract deceptive people into our lives. There is obviously a reason why some people are rarely deceived, while others are easily deceived. As I've stated elsewhere, I was sometimes an easy mark for deceptive people when I was young. I was extremely idealistic, and it's very hard to be that way with out being open to deception.

How about scorpio rising conjunct neptune in 1st?

are they just private too or deceptive?

I would not judge anything from that alone, though I do think that AC conjunct Neptune heightens idealism.

Gaer

 

[wayne penner]

A very secretively-intelligent friend of mine once told me the only way to attract truth-sayers is to become one. Truth beams brighter and encourages others to be a speaker of truth, since false preachers are un-enlightened, they don't carry the light within themselves until someone lits it for them.

It is also worth to note people who speak truth also wield power. Deceivers who cover the truth, no doubt, fear it's power. When deliberately hide the truth, it becomes an arrow, and it hones in on the scent like a fear, knowing exactly where to strike.

I thought his thoughts were quite symbolic, seeing how said friend was raised a pathological liar and has an afflicted Mercury in 12th Sagittarius. (He is now a speaker of truth )

As one with Mercury in 12th conjunct Neptune I know a little about the truth and how to lie. Mercury is in Libra sextile Mars/Pluto in Leo and Moon in Sag, square Jupiter in Capricorn in 3rd and all my life it has been a constant battle not to exaggerate, but I do not lie, although I always know when others are lieing.

I made a conscious decision many years ago not to lie to others, but then I noticed that people generally don't want to really know the truth. People prefer to stay in their own fantasies, something that Mercury in the 12th can immediately see.

Mercury in 12th is an expert liar. Allow me to bore you with a personal experience.

Some years ago on business I rented a Lincoln Town Car with tinted windows in Los Angeles. I managed to drive off the wrong exit from the I 5 and got lost in Compton, East LA. (Mercury Neptune Jupiter 3rd)

This is not a place you would take your sister on a dream vacation.

It was getting dark and I was the only White guy driving about in this big expensive white car in a very Black neighborhood where no one seemed to obey traffic signals.
I knew I had to ask directions - there weren't any cops about. I stopped at a bar, walked in, and I was the only White guy in a bar that had maybe 100 very tough-looking Black guys that did not look upon me with the love of a brother. If they had had a piano player he'd already stopped playing ...

Somewhere inside me I came up with an Australian accent, an Australian demeanor and a silly grinning attitude - " ello, mate, 'ow ya all diddlin' ... luv yer country cobber ... what's going on mate ... they got any Fosters beer in this pub?"

The Black dudes, who I am sure were about to kill me suddenly shifted in their attitude. A particularly mean-looking guy came up and said, "Where are you from?".

"Aussie mate, Melbun, on 'oliday. 'ow ya diddlin' mate ... want a Fosters? They got any bleedin' Fosters in 'ere? ****** nice country ya got this America ... want a beer mate?"

Well the result was I bought about six beers for some very serious-looking Black dudes, we all had a good time and a few laughs as I rambled on about Aussie (even though I had not been there yet) and they gave me directions on how to get back on the I 5

As I left, shaking all kinds of exotic handshakes with gangsta's the really mean-looking dude said, "Welcome to America man..."

Slightly deceptive but I'm still alive.

 

[IWDWSWLM]

I have found that people with Scorpio, Sag, Gemini, Pisces, and Virgo influences cna be pretty good liars.

Cancers and Tauruses in my opinion are the worst liars.

 

[DiDi]

MOULIN YOU SAID IT HUNNY... Haveing neptune conjunct asc even squaring the sun like myself.. is ludicrous and insulting to say one is deseptive.
In fact i couldnt lie to save my ???

a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing!

 

[NEFERINE]

Well I`ve got merc square neptune at my natal-chart My merc is i Pisces 5th house and Neptune in Sag 3rd house, conjuncted with Jupiter.

Of course i have sometimes even a bit too vivid imagination and i spend a lot of time in my dreamworld but what it comes to proven hard facts I really try to cope with them. My problem might be that i`m a bit too subtle, afraid to tell ppl how things are and what i really think about something (maybe even asc Libra affecs here) but i`m still looking for the truth and motives behind ppls acts.. But i always try to keep my promises and not to even promise if i know i might not be able to keep it.

And i have learned my lessons through a hard way not to believe on words until I see some action and that pp really are standing behind their words.
Yes, my merc square neptune makes me a bit naive and actually the object of all kinds of deception , even i really try not to get exploited by lies and things unsaid and undone.

But yes, mercury and neptune connections have some issues with truth, sometimes as the distractor or vice versa, being distracted.

 

[Hey]

You know who speaks the truth?

Me.

 

[Miss Saturn]

That's what they want you to think...

 

[aquarius7000]

I know a few people with Neptune in 1st conjunct asc and l can honestly say they are not deceptive!!..Anyone else agree? In fact l think Neptune in 1st conjunct ASC is more likely to imply psychic ability, no?

Yes, Moulin, I would be more inclined to agree with both your points than not. Nep alone in 1, without considering its sign/house/aspects, would give the quality of clairvoyance, tender-heartedness, makes one a dreamer, and, if Nep were in a hard aspect, could make one into an escapist or simply more gullible to believing those 'so-called' deceivers.

Firstly, deception is a very broad & subjective term that shares no common definition, except a negative connotation to itself.
Deception can in the far-fetched sense also mean, when I don't feel the same way about something and am more inclined to see/hear something in a particular 'my-idead' way, then every other view point would seem deceptive enough to me, as I just can't identify myself with it.

Anyways, I think, a simpler definition in terms of pure lies was the question on the thread, & in my opinion, it has little to do, if at all anything, with Neptune's placement in 1 or 12 or anywhere else. All Nep does, in the worst case scenario, is cause elusiveness and confusion of thought or speech (I address here the Nep-Mer squares / hard aspects). Take the simple eg. of Nep square Venus in a natal-chart (such as mine), it makes the native see the world through rose-coloured glasses when it comes to inter-personal relationships/ perhaps money matters, too (simply because it makes one feel more comfortable this way, than seeing the harsh realities).

Also, most importantly, a natal chart certainly carries no stamp of deception etc. It would be like trying to find out from a chart whether it's a male's or a female's chart you were looking at.

To answer the question really asked on this thread:
If at all, there could be certain aspects to show more of a pre-disposition to a certain trait. And yes, here Nep-square-Mercury might give the native the trait of eluding the truth, but does that equate to telling a lie, or, worse still, outrightly deceiving others. The motivation to do so (ie deceiving), let us not forget, more than often comes from outside. So, any aspects, to name a few, would certainly include hard aspects of Neptune/ house 12 and its/their connection to other planets. How harshly these hard aspects might manifest themselves in the native's chart can only be answered by considering many other aspects, which might be the motivation in activating the already-dicussed aspects of Neptune.

Some egs. in this connection would be a) a malefied Venus or 7th house, which would make the native more prone to disappointing/unfulfilling relationships, thereby, as a result, 'motivating' this native, rather his Neptune configuration, to escape into his own fantasy world, and 'deceive' not only others, but himself too by drawing happiness & fulfillment from his fantasy-world rather than the real, but painful world (for him at least).
b) an afflicted Pluto will again predispose the individual to power-struggles, either through his struggle for power or having to submit to power-struggles from the outside. Now this native, with also a tight aspect of Neptune, will be motivated to put his powers to 'mal' use, by let us say being an opportunist and hiding the real picture/truth, and thereby gaining from the circumstance. So here again, this form of deception, if you so like, is not the sole-doing of Neptune, but also other harsh aspects of certain planets.
I guess, that is why, it is too immature, even dangerous to study just one aspect/planet by itself and 'disconnected', as there is always something happening in each of those 12 houses, and there are many forces simultaneously at work. Agree though, that there has to be some gereralisation of qualities which are attached more to a certain planet/house, and less/not at all to another. After all, we have to start on some basis, don't we?

//aquarius7000

 

[Neptune Rising]

Neptune on Ascendant I think makes me see-through. I can't tells lies to anyone, especially to people who know me well, I'm sure they see straight through me. And I cannot bear to see anyone in pain, emotional or physical, I will do anything to help. This could be because there are few boundaries between the Neptune person and the other, so bringing empathy. They feel what the other person feels. I have Neptune on Ascendant square Moon in Pisces.

I associate Neptune with soft heartedness, compassion, empathy, self sacrifice, definately psychic or extra sensitiveness. Wisdom and experience have given a more acute radar to situations where I can be gullible, but still fall for it sometimes.

NR