Dawn, Noon, Dusk, Midnight and the Angles: A Query.


Well-known member
Hi all,

Hopefully someone can shed some light on this problem for me.

I used to wrongly, but logically presume, that upon the moment of dawn, the Sun would be precisely conjunct the ASC, and that at noon, dusk and midnight, the Sun would be precisely conjunct the MC, DC and IC respectively.

Take the dawning of this day, 4th february 2006, over London for example. The precise time of the sun breaking over the eastern horizon, according to my 'Old Moore's Almanack' is 07:34, but according to the chart for this time, tne Sun is at 15.21 Aquarius and the AC is at 12.31. Therefore, the Sun is depicted as 3 degrees beneath the horizon, and London depicted as being still in darkness.

For Noon, the Sun is depicted at 15.32, the MC at 11.53, so the sun is shown as not yet quite having reached it's zenith.

On other dates, the deviation between degrees is much larger.

Could somebody please explain this contradiction for me because I find it frustrating.

This causes a dilemma for me, as if I was born at 19:05 on the 15th September 1982, the Sun is shown as above the DC, but how can I trust that this means that I was born before sunset? Due to the fact that dusk does not necessarily correspond to an exact conjunction of the sun with the DC, how do I know that I wasn't born at sunset or afterwards?

The problem arises in calculating my POF, how do I know whether to use the day or night formula, as just because the sun is depicted on the chart as being above the DC does not mean to say that it had not gone dark.

On the 15th September this year the time for sunset over the UK is depicted as setting at 18:15, so I would imagine that sunset, although it may vary slightly, would not be much different for any year in mid-September? So surely if I was born at 19:05, then it must have been dark, despite the fact that the sun is depicted above the horizon on my chart, which does not necessarily reflect whether the sun had set or not for reasons explained.

Had the sun set or not when I was born? Could somebody please explain this to me? I feel more like a night born than a day born.

Does anyone know what time the sun would have physically set over England in 1982. I have searched the internet but it has yielded no results.

Please help with this if you can.


Draco :wink:


Well-known member


I've noticed Sunset and sun rise are almost spot on at the coast. It gets dark here :wink: but only as little as 100 yds away, away from the shadow of the bigger bit, its still light for another few minutes.

Ah, You're on the coast though , aren't you? that's put that theory out of the window!

What about leap years? and other time 'phenomena'? Or weather? Air temperature, humidty etc, will all effect how much the light penetrates. What was the weather like when you were born?

Must dash.

Catch you later



Well-known member
Hi Hel,

Yes I was born on the coast in Blackpool.

My dilemma is that as the sun is not exactly conjunct the DC when the sun sets, if you have a sun close to the ascendant, then how can you be sure whether the sun had actually physically set or not?


Summery Joy

Well-known member
Maybe the Sun has to be fully above the horizon for the chart to be diurnal and vice versa?

Either way, in your chart, you'll have the Sun conjunct the DSC (within 5 degrees of it) and this will make it technically in the 7th house even if on the chart it looks in the 6th.