Confused about Pluto

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
By the way,
here is how you can see Pluto at home
(or out in the countryside if you live in an urban area):
http://www.spaceanswers.com/astronomy/how-can-i-see-pluto/
By the way, whether the skies are viewed from one's garden
or the countryside
dwarf pluto is invisble to unaided vision


You need a fairly large telescope, at least 10 inches aperture :smile:
They are not cheap
http://www.telescopes.com/telescopes...8198+11038.cfm


You also need a very good chart of the stars through which Pluto is passing.
The best printed star atlases go down to 11th magnitude, which is not faint enough
http://astronomy.starrynight.com/


due to light pollution
major cities and towns are excluded as places from which to even attempt to view dwarf planet pluto
so unless you have clear skies pluto remains invisible even if you have a telescope
the clearest skies are in the countryside
so
plan a holiday
or
maybe take a hike at the weekend
spend time somewhere there are clear skies
pack a powerful telescope costing a minimum
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] $[/FONT]7000[/FONT]at the sale price
and that's just the cost of the telescope :smile:
add the cost of staying away from home
also choose nights when there is no rain
 

Monk

Premium Member
I'm an astronomer with an interest in astrology, i have a Pluto M.C. conjunct Regulus, with Scorpio Rising, i have found debate interesting.

Obviously now it is difficult to place Pluto as Ruler of Scorpio, however most people/astrologers who have a Pluto alignment on an angle, know it can have huge effect on their lives, how astrologers interpret that in future is up to them, but don't think perhaps it has little effect ha ha!
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

I'm an astronomer with an interest in astrology,
i have a Pluto M.C. conjunct Regulus, with Scorpio Rising,
i have found debate interesting.

Obviously now it is difficult to place Pluto as Ruler of Scorpio,
however most people/astrologers who have a Pluto alignment on an angle, know it can have huge effect on their lives,
how astrologers interpret that in future is up to them, but don't think perhaps it has little effect ha ha!
As an astronomer then
you are familiar with the fact that dwarf planet pluto is invisible to human vision unless aided by powerful telescopes
and furthermore
that there are many dwarf planets
some of which are larger than pluto

more are being discovered daily :smile:
Light is the first method in which we are able to percieve the planets.

This is, for example, where the idea of the planets "orb" comes from (the disk of light around a planet), and their ability to cast rays (aspects such as trine, square, etc). Without that percievable orb of light, the concept of a planet doing aspects makes no sense. Given that pluto (and the other outers) have no visibile disk of light, they can't cast rays for instance.

Combustion in a night's chart still holds its meaning, because, from traditional perspective the position in which a planet would rise at dawn or set at dusk is still relevant, regardless of whether it was currently below or above the ground at the moment of birth. But this is in the traditional perspective, with most of the concepts regarding the heliacal cycle of the planets being abandoned by modernists. Furthermore, what I explained is the original concept of COMBUSTION and how it was used.

The fact that a planet at some stages shines with bright light, and sometimes it does not, has indeed its traditional interpretations. For example, slower planets like jupiter, when approaching opposition with the sun, won't be able to be seen at dawn or dusk, but will shine with bright light at night. The best example here is the moon...full moon has a different interpretation than new moon, in any chart, regardless if the moon is above or below the ground.

Pluto doesn't hold to almost any of the traditional interpretations to make sense in what it used to be called astrology back in the day.

Furthermore I'd like to contest the argument that pluto has "influence" in every natal chart.
Most of the factors regarding a person's life can be explained through the 7 classical planets,
without the need for pluto.


In the post linked by JUPASC, the issue was raised using the example of Bill Gate's chart, in which most modernist assigned his promise of wealth to a pluto placement, when from the traditional perspective, I was able to show that there are other explanations, ignoring pluto completly.

Traditional techniques can explain anything assigned to pluto by modern astrology.
 

Monk

Premium Member
How large something is in our solar system isn't the issue to effect, obviously the Sun is So much larger than anything else but is pulled off it's axis as the centre of our solar system by the large planets aligning, that are as small as Pluto compared to the Sun.

I'm aware of Pluto being invisible to the naked eye especially with light pollution, but perhaps we need to hear more from astrologers that have Pluto on angle on a birth chart for research!
 

Konrad

Account Closed
How large something is in our solar system isn't the issue to effect, obviously the Sun is So much larger than anything else but is pulled off it's axis as the centre of our solar system by the large planets aligning, that are as small as Pluto compared to the Sun.

I'm aware of Pluto being invisible to the naked eye especially with light pollution, but perhaps we need to hear more from astrologers that have Pluto on angle on a birth chart for research!

As I said, I have Pluto 6 degrees from the MC, Uranus 4 degrees from the ASC and Neptune 13 degrees from the ASC.

I have another chart here with Uranus 6 degrees from the MC.

Another with Uranus 1 degree from the ASC and Pluto 12 from the MC.

Another with Uranus 1 degree from the ASC, Neptune 6 degrees from the ASC and Pluto 4 degrees from the MC.

Another with Pluto 1 degree from the MC.

Another with Uranus and Neptune 2 degrees from the DSC.

All of these are charts of people I know intimately and I offer them as research. I will answer all questions about them that I can without being too specific in detail to preserve some privacy and I will block out the birth details. I can post the charts in whatever house system or zodiac one desires. I hope you understand that posting birth-details and places would be irresponsible of me. Of course, I can offer my own uncensored.
 

Monk

Premium Member
I use tight orbs of one degree, like fixed stars, so am interested in astrologers that have birth charts with Pluto on angle pretty tight, near to one degree, it would be nice to hear from these people to see research and effect.

Please note i'm only being nice!
 

Konrad

Account Closed
I still have four charts here of an outer partile an angle, one of which is Pluto ascending. The offer still stands.
 
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Monk

Premium Member
Hi Konrad,

Please note i'm being nice, but you have a few charts, and i'm looking for Pluto on an angle pretty tight for a birth chart, so charts that have Pluto on an angle within one and a half degree's.

Can we say you have one?

Please note i am known for research with tight orbs regarding fixed stars, and parans, that is traditional astrology and older than anything else!

However i'm only looking for tight orbs on angles for Pluto, for research thus looking for anyone that has this, unconnected to wide orbs!
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

I use tight orbs of one degree, like fixed stars,
so am interested in astrologers that have birth charts with Pluto on angle pretty tight, near to one degree,
it would be nice to hear from these people to see research and effect.

Please note i'm only being nice!
I note you posted your own natal chart on another thread recently
interesting if you would re-post your natal chart on this thread as well Monk
as Konrad may have some observations/comments
:smile:
 

Monk

Premium Member
Obviously JupiterAsc,

I'm interested in research over Pluto, but as you know if i show research it is more than just a few charts, thus i'm interested in tight alignments.

My Birth chart is on link below but is about quintiles which isn't the subject here, but as the first to show a tight M.C/Pluto alignment about approx, one and a half degrees.

I'm not trying to create dispute but enlarge data pool, thus would like others to post tight Pluto alignments!

http://www.mauricefernandez.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&t=1989
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Obviously JupiterAsc,

I'm interested in research over Pluto, but as you know if i show research it is more than just a few charts, thus i'm interested in tight alignments.

My Birth chart is on link below but is about quintiles which isn't the subject here, but as the first to show a tight M.C/Pluto alignment about approx, one and a half degrees.

I'm not trying to create dispute but enlarge data pool, thus would like others to post tight Pluto alignments!


http://www.mauricefernandez.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&t=1989
Thanks Monk :smile:
would be great if you would say what you think that the quintiles show
these quintiles involve the seven visible plane
ts solely?
or are 'the outers'/dwarf planet pluto involved?
 

Konrad

Account Closed
Hi Konrad,

Please note i'm being nice, but you have a few charts, and i'm looking for Pluto on an angle pretty tight for a birth chart, so charts that have Pluto on an angle within one and a half degree's.

Can we say you have one?

Please note i am known for research with tight orbs regarding fixed stars, and parans, that is traditional astrology and older than anything else!

However i'm only looking for tight orbs on angles for Pluto, for research thus looking for anyone that has this, unconnected to wide orbs!

Yes, we can say I have one. :)

Here is the chart anyway, in the Tropical zodiac and Placidus houses:

plutoasc.png


If you have any questions about it ask here or via PM. Same goes for any requests in making the image bigger.

As for Monk's chart, JupiterASC, I don't really have the time to delineate it, but I am very interested in his Mercury ruling Spirit while in the bounds of Saturn - always a good sign of one able for deep research, especially in this sort of subject.

Just to be clear, the offer of the charts earlier was not only limited to Monk.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Yes, we can say I have one. :)

Here is the chart anyway, in the Tropical zodiac and Placidus houses:


plutoasc.png


If you have any questions about it ask here or via PM. Same goes for any requests in making the image bigger.

As for Monk's chart, JupiterASC, I don't really have the time to delineate it,
but I am very interested in his Mercury ruling Spirit while in the bounds of Saturn
- always a good sign of one able for deep research, especially in this sort of subject.


Just to be clear, the offer of the charts earlier was not only limited to Monk.
Good observation Konrad, thanks for that :smile:
I wonder whether Monk has studied Hellenistic and/or traditional methods?
 

Dirius

Well-known member
Ok the posts are getting long :happy:, but I'm going to try to break down the Pluto argument.

Dirius, I challenge you to show me how the orb of the planet Saturn, when visible in the night sky, equals 5 degrees, or whatever other value you choose to put on it. http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspectorbs.html Here is a quick-and-dirty backyard astronomy guide to calculating degrees from a given point in the heavens, used by "backyard" or amateur astronomers: http://oneminuteastronomer.com/860/measuring-sky/

Of course Pluto, Uranus, and Neptune (plus many asteroids) have "visible disks of light." Again, this is how they were actually discovered, not just theorized. However, they were discovered with the aid of telescopes. And we're not talking Hubble, here, either. Telescopes prior to the 20th century were not terribly sophisticated. If you own a beefy "backyard astronomy" telescope and camera, you, too, can observe Pluto; but the trick will be distinguishing it from the stars in its proximity. This article tells you how: http://www.spaceanswers.com/astronomy/how-can-i-see-pluto/

1) Regarding the Light of planets:

a) Ok I think you are mistaking what i said about an "orb", with the medieval concept of orb as a degree of influence within the signs. But I agree it may be my fault, because it is a confusing subject.

The general term of orb, is the hellenic one, which is just the light around a planet (disk of light).

From hellenic perspective, for example, planets inside a water sign, are always in "aspect" with planets inside other water sign (trine), regardless if one is at the end, and the other at the beginning of said signs, the orb carries no influences.

The medieval astrologers invented the concept of "degree of influence within the orb", to try to establish a base for the aspect's strenght. But this is something that comes from the 9th century and so on, and isn't really used much.

b) The concept of an aspect, which is the purpose of having an "orb", and this is important so everyone should read, is this: Aspects unite Signs, not planets. This is the traditional interpretation of an aspect. Basicly, aspect comes from the word "aspectum", which means to observe. A planet in aspect thus gives a testimony of the planet he is beholding.

A planet in aspect with another planet, testifies, or gives opinion, about the planet it aspects. And it is the sign that modules the planets opinion regarding the other planet. And the medium in which such testimony is given, is by the "rays of light" the planets cast towards each other.

So in order for a planet to give a testimony regarding another planet, said planet must have an "argument" moduled by the sign. This is done through the essential dignities and debilities, and the reception among the planets.

If Pluto has NO essential dignities, thus pluto can't act accordingly to the sign it is placed in. Thus, aside from not having any light, it also forms no opinion.

For example a mars in Virgo and a Jupiter in Cancer are in negative reception towards each other, and in sextile aspect (they recieve each other through detriment and fall). So, doesn't matter how good the aspect is, they won't be helping each other.

THIS IS WHY, we don't consider fixed stars to cast aspects, and are only relevant through conjunction. Because fixed stars also can't be moduled by a sign, they don't rule any sign and have no essential dignities or debilities, thus their influence falls down only to their nature (benefic or malefic), and thus only influence the planet when they are extremely close to each other.

c) The point in argument regarding the light of the outer planets, falls down to an incompatibility with astrological system in general

It is mostly nit picking what to believe and what not.

As I showed above>

Aspects represent one thing (planets uniting signs). That is their use. A planet that has no sign, and no light, can't cast an aspect (I will further the topic on Pluto as ruler of nothing below).

Saying that outers indeed make aspects, "just because", is choosing what do use and what not to, without basing the decision on the logical reasoning behind astrology.

Aspect are not just mathematical degrees uniting the planets, they have a certain significance. The concept of the outers doing that, goes against that meaning.

-----

2) The concept of Pluto
:

And here is were the argument for Pluto can be broken down into why we consider it invalid.

a) The first thing we notice is how all, and I do mean all of pluto's attributes, belong to other planets in the first place. I'm going to name the most common ones. Lets analyze the association of pluto and what he represents:

sex, death, money, change, violence, revolution, etc.

Sex = Venus
Money = Jupiter
Change = Saturn
Violence = Mars
Death = Mars

The Venus being the natural ruler of sex is very well known, with its companion and opposite Mars being the representation of the sexual act. Jupiter as the great benefic, represents the concept of wealth, so money is something attributed to jupiter. Saturn, with its long cycles, and its "malefic" influence represents the change and stages we all go through life. Mars represents violence, war, anger and death.

So with all these attributes assigned to other planets, as natural rulerships, why do we need pluto?

The 7 hellenic lots, and what they do, is expand this concept. This is why each and every one of the parts is assigned to a specific planet.

b) The lack of essential dignities for pluto, as I said in point 1, means that pluto's nature can't be compared to that of the planets. Thus his nature can't be modulated for good or bad, and has to act solely through his natural attributes. But since he has no natural attributes (given the fact that they are all stolen from other planets), pluto's significance is meaningless.

c) The assignment of Pluto to Scorpio, aside from random, is imperfect because it goes against the natural essence of the table of dignities.

And this is not because of sign rulership or anything, but because of the triplicity system and the sect behind the signs.

Each planet rules a sign that belongs to a different sec: day and night.

Triplicity's divide themselves between day signs (fire and air) and night (water and earth). This is why the triplicities are ruled by specific planets, diurnal or nocturnal.

Lacking a sect (as either nocturnal or diurnal planet), can't also be assigned to the table of triplicities. Of course I understand modern astrology doesn't employ triplicity.

Yet triplicity and sect is one of the corner stones for astrology in general.

----------------------------

To sum up:

- Pluto doesn't fit with almost NONE of the astrological beliefs
- Each meaning pluto has can be assigned to another reason, established 2000 years ago

Of course, here the modern astrologer comes and claims:

"-But I don't believe in the triplicity system, or the concept of sect, or that aspects are because of signs. So I will use Pluito regardless."

Well, going by that, then we can question everything, then:

- why does the sun rules Leo?
- why are squares "bad" aspects and trines "good"?
- why is uranus malefic?
- why does venus represent love?
- why does the moon represent feelings?
- why is the 9th house, the one of higher learning?
- why is the 7th house the one of the spouse?

Why?

Modern astrology disregards a lot of astrological teachings, only for the sake of preference.

If one is to disregard a lot of this things, why not the rest? why keep some, and throw away the others?

I've actually said in many posts, what hurts the Pluto argument the most is the lack of reasoning on modern astrology.

I must say waybread, that by far, you are the most convincing and logical with the Pluto argument. I do give you that.

But the problem, at least for me, is that still the dissection of the astrological system ir order to make room for pluto, still lacks a logical perspective.

PS: I'm not trying to offend anyone with this post, just trying to put the argument together, and trying to show the reasoning behind the well established classical principles.

EDIT: just fixed a few things on the post, was pretty long and I missplaced some words/sentences.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Sight is not the only sense with which to experience the sky. Surely you are aware if it rains or snows through your sense of touch!

nevertheless
comparing dwarf planet pluto to rain or snow is misleading
dwarf planet pluto is far beyond 'your sense of touch'




The Greeks combined meteorology with astrology: see Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos for example.
The relationship between moon phases and tides was well known.
You know the expression "lunacy."

The moon visibly and obviously reflects the light of the sun
unlike dwarf planet pluto

there is no evidence that dwarf planet pluto has any effect on tides




Your mistrust of telescopes, however, really doesn't hold up.
Ancient and medieval astrologers used quadrants, astrolabes, sundials, water clocks, the antikythera mechanism, perapegmata, and armillary spheres.
They didn't restrict themselves to their eyeballs.
In fact, as soon as reliable ephemerides became available in ancient times, they used them instead of star-gazing to note planetary positions.

They would have had to rely on ephemerides in northern Europe, frankly, because the sky is overcast so much of the tme
.


It is incontrovertible that astrology began with observation of the skies
thousands of years ago
long before the invention of artificial aids to vision
such as for example, telescopes



I'll say here in a note I posted to Dirius that wiped out, that the modern outers do cast visible light.
Of course they do. They reflect the light of the sun just like the traditional planets do.


That's misleading
because
IF the outers reflected the light of the sun with the same level of magnitude that the seven traditional planets do
THEN
the outers would be as visible in the night skies as the seven traditional planets are

BUT

in contrast with the seven traditional planets
the outers are invisible in the night skies
SO
the outers were not 'discovered' until the invention of powerful artificial aids to vision such as telescopes




In fact, on a good night with some homework under your belt, you can see Uranus with the naked eye.
If you have a reasonably beefy telescope at home with a camera designed for night sky photos
(advertised in amateur astronomy magazines)
you can see Pluto.

This isn't about the Hubble telescope. Many of the asteroids were discovered in the 19th century,
when telescopes were primitive by modern standards. Galileo discovered the moons of Jupiter in the early 17th century.
It IS about the LOWELL OBSERVATORY


in fact
dwarf planet pluto is so faint
that unless
In 1894, businessman Percival Lowell had built the Lowell Observatory to study Mars.
and then in 1905, turned the telescope toward the search for the elusive Planet X
dwarf planet pluto would not have been found
it was only because
the telescope at the observatory was equipped with a camera
that would take two photographs of the sky on different days
that Clyde Tombaugh
using a device known as a blink compactor rapidly flipped back and forth between the two photographs
that meant
Stars and galaxies essentially remained unmoving in the images
but
anything closer could be visually identified by its motion across the sky.
AND it was only after Tombaugh spent approximately a week studying each pair of photographs
which contained over 150,000 stars
and sometimes nearly a million.
that finally on 18 February 1930
Clyde Tombaugh noticed movement across the field of a pair of images taken a month beforehand.

After studying the object to confirm it,
the staff of Lowell Observatory officially announced the discovery of a ninth planet on 13 March 1930


It's misleading to claim
that dwarf planet pluto is somehow easily visible to anyone from their backyard IF they have a telescope


dwarf pluto is invisble to unaided vision

AND
a fairly large telescope, at least 10 inches aperture is required
That 'reasonably beefy camera complete with camera' you mentioned
costs ten thousand dollars plus and that is when on sale :smile:
http://www.telescopes.com/telescopes...8198+11038.cfm


A very good chart of stars through which Pluto is passing is also required.
The best printed star atlases go down to 11th magnitude, which is not faint enough
http://astronomy.starrynight.com/

keep in mind that
light pollution
excludes backyards in all major cities and towns as places from which to even attempt to view dwarf planet pluto

furthermore

unless skies are remarkably clear
pluto remains invisible even if one has a telescope

the clearest skies are in the countryside
so
in order to view dwarf planet pluto then take time off work

or
maybe take a hike at the weekend
to a rural location with very clear skies
essential to pack a powerful telescope costing a minimum
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] $[/FONT]7000 [/FONT]at the sale price

and that's just the cost of the telescope

add the cost of accommodation away from home

and

if there are cloudy skies
then re-book your holiday
 

waybread

Staff member
Waybread,

You either don't get it or don't want to. It's fine, I'm not going to waste any more time repeating the same idea over and over. I find your misrepresentation of ideas during debate to be a turn-off, and it seems one ends up spending more time correcting "misunderstandings" of one's positions than working through them.

I hope for others reading that the idea of using a telescope to view an object contradicts a basic tenet of ancient astrology isn't too difficult to understand.

Oh, I get it perfectly well, Konrad. Your point is simple to understand. I just disagree with you. I wonder if you understand my points.

Your quarrel is really with the whole of modern astrology.

Konrad, are you willing to post your chart here, ideally using an Astrodienst chart (much easier to read)? Again, a modern astrologer probably wouldn't be nearly as interested in angular houses and much more interested in aspects-- and more.
 
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waybread

Staff member
Obviously JupiterAsc,

I'm interested in research over Pluto, but as you know if i show research it is more than just a few charts, thus i'm interested in tight alignments.

My Birth chart is on link below but is about quintiles which isn't the subject here, but as the first to show a tight M.C/Pluto alignment about approx, one and a half degrees.

I'm not trying to create dispute but enlarge data pool, thus would like others to post tight Pluto alignments!

http://www.mauricefernandez.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&t=1989

Monk, I found your chart on that linked thread. At the risk of falling flat on my face, I would read your Pluto as influencing the following personality features. You can let me know if I am "on" or "off." I am doing this mainly to suggest to the trads how they could use Pluto in a horoscope interpretation.

I think you would like to be known as a deep and penetrating thinker. I see you as someone with the soul of the philosopher-- regardless of where your formal education took you. You don't like to settle for sloppy thinking, either. In your quest, you do suffer from a sense of personal limitations, yet you can use your innate sense of self discipline to make the progress you desire. As a "boomer" in the Pluto in Leo sextile Neptune generation, you have got a sense of self-transformation. (Pluto conjunct Mercury/MC, Pluto in the 9th ruled by the moon (conjunct Jupiter) in the 10th, Mercury strong in Virgo, Saturn in the first square Pluto.)
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Monk, I found your chart on that linked thread.
At the risk of falling flat on my face,
I would read your Pluto as influencing the following personality features.
You can let me know if I am "on" or "off."
I am doing this mainly to suggest to the trads how they could use Pluto in a horoscope interpretation.

I think you would like to be known as a deep and penetrating thinker.
Not much of 'a risk of falling flat on one's face'
That comment could apply to almost anyone on this forum

I see you as someone with the soul of the philosopher regardless of where your formal education took you.
Another generalisation.
Everyone has their own philosophy, regardless of their formal education

You don't like to settle for sloppy thinking, either.
another comment that could apply to almost anyone on this forum
In your quest, you do suffer from a sense of personal limitations,
yet you can use your innate sense of self discipline to make the progress you desire.
Few if any on this forum do NOT 'suffer from a sense of personal limitations'
As a "boomer" in the Pluto in Leo sextile Neptune generation, you have got a sense of self-transformation.
(Pluto conjunct Mercury/MC, Pluto in the 9th ruled by the moon (conjunct Jupiter)
in the 10th, Mercury strong in Virgo, Saturn in the first square Pluto.)
'you have got a sense of self-transformation'
is not exclusive to any particularly generation

many with completely different natal charts to Monk
may relate to these observations as well :smile:
 

Monk

Premium Member
Hi JupiterAsc,

To be fair, i only posted my chart to show i had a tight alignment to Pluto on the M.C., thus a person that has the aspect is allowed to speak.

Obviously with Scorpio rising, i would have Scorpio features, picture below from the mid-seventies, sorry about the moustache, but they were in then ha ha!

http://2012forum.com/forum/download/file.php?id=7068&mode=view

I don't see anything wrong with Waybread's interpretation, it was how i was taught at the Faculty of Astrological Studies, link below, obviously only one school of many:-

http://www.astrology.org.uk/

I make no secret that i'm disabled, but i can see why waybread would think that!

I have studied Hellenistic and traditional methods, however i now specialise in fixed stars, parans and mundane electional astrology, however i could be wrong, it may be synchronicity, parans are the oldest of astrology techniques and can be followed back to at least the 13th Century BC

Everything in my life/soul that isn't needed gets burnt off!

Obviously as parans have tight orbs to angles, my research is geared to studying tight Pluto orbs, however i think i will start a new thread regarding planets tight on angles when i can get to it!

I find it strange that Vesta hasn't been mentioned in traditional astrology, for it must have been visible to the ancients when there wasn't any light pollution, it is only 326 miles in mean radius, but under some conditions is visible to the naked eye, link below please scroll down to "Visibility":-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_Vesta
 
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