Cold and calculated in a natal chart?

The19thLaw

Well-known member
I just watched this movie called Law Abiding Citizen starring Gerard Butler and Jamie Foxx. In the movie, Clyde Shelton (Gerard Butler's character) witnesses his family slain by a bunch of crooks who get off on an easy sentence. Many years from the date when they are out of jail, he kills both of them in a very cold way, torturing them and outsmarting them every step of the way before doing so.

What placements in a natal chart would make for this kind of a guy?
 

ElenaJ

Well-known member
Re: Cold and calculated in a natal chart.

By sheer coincidence last night there was a film on TV here (which I rarely watch) with Antonio Banderas who plays the part of a lawyer who's wife and young daughter are murdered. He was supposed to meet them at the end of the concert, he didn't go, leaving them vulnerable, and has heavy guilt feelings, goes to a local boxing centre where the contestants basically slaughter themselves in free-style fighting, and he continues to take it on to punish himself. Through a series of strange passages he comes on a book of philosophy that he uses to rebuild himself. Beginning with the quote "only the person who commits the crime should be punished".
He finds the guilty one, a cop who was the one who saved him from the boxing massacre, who killed the mother and daughter as revenge because Banderas had successfully defended the murderer of the cop's own daughter.
And I had thought how many pisces symbols, self sacrificing, philosophy, plus many of the scenes took part in wet or rainy weather, not to mention the spilling of blood, the inner turmoil and soul searching.
Banderas himself has a face that is halfway between moony cancer and neptunian pisces, although I have no idea about him.

Sorry if this doesn't relate directly to your film, but we both had a similar idea about what we watched, and I thought it might be interesting to compare.
 
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ElenaJ

Well-known member
Re: Cold and calculated in a natal chart.

Found the title... Acts of Vengeance.
Not sure if that title follows through with the Pisces/Cancer themes.
Is Pisces the sign of vengeance?
 

CapAquaPis

Well-known member
Cancer, Aquarius and Pisces are signs of revenge because you felt you were wronged. They strongly believe in fair justice and equal treatment. The cancer/Aquarius type in sun or moon combos is compassionate, empathic, doesn't like politics, and showed a strong love of children, concern for civil or human rights, and champion for the underrepresented. However, to wanting to strike back at people is dangerous and cancer/Aquarius types need to control themselves when they express anger and disgust at wrong doings. A cancer/Aquarius personality princess Diana Spencer described the royal family after a bad marriage to prince Charles and her humanitarian efforts or causes, esp. involving children, she knew where her heart is.
 

CapAquaPis

Well-known member
Capricorn - cold and calculating when done wrong by with a bit of Scorpio.

Depends on the aspects too

The saturnian Capricorn and plutonian Scorpio are indeed the cold spots of the astrological zodiac. Scorpio and Aries have temper issues, but not all people under these signs are. There are more convicted criminals born in cancer and Taurus than any other sun signs.
 

Hkk

Account Closed
The saturnian Capricorn and plutonian Scorpio are indeed the cold spots of the astrological zodiac. Scorpio and Aries have temper issues, but not all people under these signs are. There are more convicted criminals born in cancer and Taurus than any other sun signs.

Hitler was a Taurus ♉
I still think aspects play a big part in all this
 

Cary2

Banned
I agree about Scorpio. Scorpio can be quite warm, but an unbalanced Scorpio is quite cold and calculating.

I would add that I think your example would enlist a number of things.

Ju/Sa - even if they don't believe in retribution, they can patiently wait decades to punish those who ill use their loved ones. Possibly mean.

Ve/Sa - is relentless, and can be cold. Possibly mean.

Ma/Ur/Pl - very dangerous, very vindictive, very determined, will martial his resources so he is powerful enough to devastate. Killer.
 

Cary2

Banned
I think Scorpios lack the willpower and true calculating nature to do much damage, it's just an emotionally unhinged sign.

Fixed signs, Scorpio, Leo, Taurus, Aquarius are the most willful and stubborn. The coldest of any sign is among the afflicted Scorpios. Of course, planetary contacts and formations are more critical for such things.
 
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The19thLaw

Well-known member
Fixed signs, Scorpio, Leo, Taurus, Aquarius are the most willful and stubborn. The coldest of any sign is among the afflicted Scorpios. Of course, planetary contacts and formations are more critical for such things.

Yes but each fixed sign has its elements. Aquarius and Taurus would be the ones to fear. Leos are more prideful and egotistical but Scorpios I feel are all bark no bite. They'd commit suicide before they hurt anyone.
 

Bunraku

Well-known member
I think Pisces is really ferocious. I wouldn’t trust anyone with a Pisces placement. That’s why they spend meticulous efforts to show off how innocent and sensitive they are—what normal person needs to do that? Red flag.
 

Cary2

Banned
Yes but each fixed sign has its elements. Aquarius and Taurus would be the ones to fear. Leos are more prideful and egotistical but Scorpios I feel are all bark no bite. They'd commit suicide before they hurt anyone.

When I talk about signs, I'm talking about an astrological field and its influence. I am not usually talking about people. Certainly, the subject of astrology and its properties may lead to talking about people. To talk about people as their Sun signs is to ignore proper astrology.

There are a few signs in astrology who exhibit heights and depths to a very remarkable degree. That is: when they are good, they are very good, but when they are bad, they are very bad. No sign exhibits that characteristic more than Scorpio. When Scorpio reaches for the heights, no sign is more selfless. When Scorpio reaches for the depths, no sign is more evil.

You have said many things about Scorpio that contradict my experience and the general literature on astrology. You said Scorpio had little willpower. You said Scorpio had little pride. I think you don't know what you are talking about. No sign has displayed more willfulness or pride than Scorpio, allowing, of course, for what I said previously.
 

ricca91

Well-known member
When I talk about signs, I'm talking about an astrological field and its influence. I am not usually talking about people. Certainly, the subject of astrology and its properties may lead to talking about people. To talk about people as their Sun signs is to ignore proper astrology.

There are a few signs in astrology who exhibit heights and depths to a very remarkable degree. That is: when they are good, they are very good, but when they are bad, they are very bad. No sign exhibits that characteristic more than Scorpio. When Scorpio reaches for the heights, no sign is more selfless. When Scorpio reaches for the depths, no sign is more evil.

You have said many things about Scorpio that contradict my experience and the general literature on astrology. You said Scorpio had little willpower. You said Scorpio had little pride. I think you don't know what you are talking about. No sign has displayed more willfulness or pride than Scorpio, allowing, of course, for what I said previously.

Totally agree about that. I feel Saturn and Capricorn in the mix give even more willpower and strength. Also, a positive Saturn can be extremely generous and selfless in a practical, encouraging way IME. I love evolved Saturnian people and know very "positive" and very "negative" Scorpios and they can be your best dream or your worst nightmare. I am a "work in progress" Scorpio :p
 

The19thLaw

Well-known member
Sun is domiciled in Leo and exalted in Aries.

Even the powerful mars which was domiciled in Scorpio is exalted in Capricorn.

Pluto which was domiciled in Scorpio has been said to be exalted in the likes of Pisces, Aries, and even Leo.

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wan

Well-known member
I think Pisces is really ferocious.
Do you really think that?


This really came as a surprise to me, that anybody would consider pisces ferocious. I have a Pisces ascendant and sometimes I feel that I am too trusting and soft. Like I am a big marshmellow woman. In fact my friend in real life is a double Pisces and she is the most gentle person you can possibly find. Not at all ferocious.
 

Frisiangal

Well-known member
Originally Posted by Bunraku
I think Pisces is really ferocious.

Do you really think that?

This really came as a surprise to me, that anybody would consider pisces ferocious.............. In fact my friend in real life is a double Pisces and she is the most gentle person you can possibly find. Not at all ferocious.

As Cary has already mentioned, signs and planets can 'behave' differently. Even soft and harsh aspects can behave as one would expect of the other.

I have always remembered and learnt from the comment of a Pisces Sun going through a difficult time. She said, 'There are sharks as well as goldfish' and, as we all know, a shark is a predator!
There ARE people who 'prey' and take advantage of the willingness of another. There ARE people whose strength enable them to make enormous self sacrifices for another who, albeit uconsciously, prey on their goodness.

I have a Pisces ascendant and sometimes I feel that I am too trusting and soft. Like I am a big marshmellow woman.

One of my daughters has Pisces rising. Regulates the P.R. office (Leo Moon in 6th) of a hospice for over 15 years. Ethereal softness, pliability and goodness personified until she came to the realisation (opp. sign Virgo) that she was treated like a doormat. She felt that no one 'saw' or considered her for herself.
She has true Pisces talents regarding her sensitivity as a souce towards other-worldly phenomenom.
She collects fairy miniature statuettes .... with pretty faces:smile:. She saw and bought one of a sort of Amazon with a raised sword. It had such an effect upon her that she finally started to stand up for herself as well as for/to others.

As transit Neptune has crossed her Ascendant to trine natal Mercury she has developed a talent for poetry with feeling. Beautiful words pour out of her. Yet she has also become a fanatic crusader regarding the ideas of the faithful around the covid-19 virus. Fake news, conspiracy theories, deception, etc., that she voices to anyone who is willing to listen. She's 'become' that Amazon fairy with her raised sword against whom she visions to be 'the bad guys'. Everyone has made a quiet vow NOT to mention the 'C' word in her presence :smile:.

There is more to the saying 'Two sides to every story' ....including astrological theories.:wink:
 
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MoonlightSonata

Well-known member
I can see how taking someone or something precious from a person who has a lot of Scorpio and/or Pluto energy could cause hurt to turn into rage, especially if the moon and Mercury are involved.

Mars is no chump. After all, it’s named after the Roman god of war. But I think Pluto (aka Roman god of the underworld) energy would be a lot scarier because it represents our obsessions, power and control issues and transformations due to things that have been bubbling beneath the surface for a while (e.g., anger) finally boiling over. And Scorpio energy can also be vengeful.

So if a person like that snapped… whew!
 
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brainpuddle

Well-known member
Do you really think that?


This really came as a surprise to me, that anybody would consider pisces ferocious. I have a Pisces ascendant and sometimes I feel that I am too trusting and soft. Like I am a big marshmellow woman. In fact my friend in real life is a double Pisces and she is the most gentle person you can possibly find. Not at all ferocious.
I would say Pisces are extremely soft natured, but they also don't always know when to stop, which might lead to some of these opinions.
 
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