Cadent houses being weak vs planetary joys

waybread

Well-known member
I think that the warmest part of the day in most temperate regions is the Sun in the 9th house, not the 10th or 8th. The ancients accounted for seasonal lag with Leo, they could have accounted for the diurnal lag with the 9th house.

Our friends Ptolemy and Valens would have been intimately familiar with weather and climate patterns in and around Alexandria, Egypt. Ditto for the ancient Egyptians who probably invented the astrological houses--based on their lived experiences of their environments.

Although Egypt would have been labeled as part of the temperate zone by the Hellenists, Ptolemy was also a geographer. He would have understood differences between the climate of the Mediterranean perimeter, the interior of Europe, and the hot desert of the Near East.

Let's look at climate graphs for, say, Alexandria Egypt. The reason for the significant lag in peak daily temperatures immediatetely after 12:00 noon is because the earth is heated from the surface by re-radiation; not directly from incoming solar radiation. After the cool part of the night and early morning, it takes a while for the surface to warm up.

Let's look at the 3rd graph on this website, titled "Average hourly temperature": https://weatherspark.com/y/95917/Average-Weather-in-Alexandria-Egypt-Year-Round

We can see that the hot part of the day is from about 2:00 to 5:00 pm. If the MC symbolizes the highest point of the sun in the sky at noon, depending upon the time of year, the sun would be in the 8th house during the afternoon heat.

On a monthly basis the hot part of the year also happens in August, not at the summer solstice. At the time of the summer solstice, the northern hemisphere is still coming out of the cooler part of the year. I'm not sure how precession would figure into this, going back 2000 years.

Alexandria has a Mediterranean type of climate, with rainy winters and rainless summers. The rest of the country's climate qualifies as hot desert.

I've spent a lot of time in the Mojave and Utah deserts in the US, and the hot part of the day is definitely mid- to late-afternoon, notably in summer. Heat exhaustion, dehydration, and heat stroke are real dangers for the unprepared. The heat of the day can be a source of death to some. Cf. the Spanish siesta in the afternoon, where cities really come to life again after sundown.

As much as I prefer to distinguish between signs and houses, there is some evidence of one (of several) house systems that identified the houses' thematic contents with the zodiac signs. For example, the cadent third house is sometimes called the house of brothers. This bears little resemblance to the goddess or to the moon joying in the 3rd house, but it relates a lot to the third sign of Gemini.

I think we see something similar with the 8th house as the house of death and a relationship with scorpions.

This is an interesting article about the scorpion in ancient Egypt, and its death symbolism. The author is Egyptian: https://mds.marshall.edu/cgi/viewco...&httpsredir=1&article=1136&context=euscorpius He talks about the scorpion goddess Serqet, who accompanies the dead.

Another example of the relationship between a (cadent) house meaning and the local environment is in Ptolemy, in sec. III.10 on length of life. Ptolemy mentions the 12th as the "House of the Evil Daemon," but ever the rationalist, he attributes the period just after sunrise has having "thick misty exhalation form the moisture of the earth" and atmospheric turbidity.

I spent a lot of time Googling "sunrise on the Nile," and came up with pictures like the following, which seem to bear him out.
 

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waybread

Well-known member
It's hard to say, passiflora, because the pre-horoscopic origins of astrology appear to be in ancient Mesopotamia and Egypt. Certainly star lore (cultural astronomy) was very different in different locations.

It is interesting that Manilius (1st century CE) said the 12th house belonged to Typhon, the evil god of storms from whom we get our word "typhoon." The Hellenists generally called the 12th house "the house of the evil spirit."

In ancient Egypt the evil god of dust- and sand-storms was Seth (Set,) engaged in a constant battle with the sun. A major sandstorm can obscure the sun.

This article gives some idea of the significance of these sandstorms in the Near East (the winds causing them are locally called Hamsin, or Khamsin-- the H sound is gutteral.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khamsin

More generally, to ancient Egyptians, order and regularity were good. Disorder was bad. Seth more broadly symbolized the forces of disorder.

In traditional astrology, Saturn doesn't rule everything bad, but he rules a lot of it. Astrologically his joy in the 12th house seems appropriate to phenomena that obscure the sun when it is above the horizon.
 

petosiris

Banned
Of the part above the earth it is not fitting to consider either the sign that is disjunct from the ascendant, nor that which rose before it, called the House of the Evil Daemon, because it injures the emanation from the stars in it to the earth and is also declining, and the thick, misty exhalation from the moisture of the earth creates such a turbidity and, as it were, obscurity, that the stars do not appear in either their true colours or magnitudes. - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/3B*.html#10

Fascinating story. But the Sun, the Moon and the five planets do not appear in either their true colours or magnitudes on the eastern and western horizon worldwide. :smile:
 

petosiris

Banned
Our friends Ptolemy and Valens would have been intimately familiar with weather and climate patterns in and around Alexandria, Egypt. Ditto for the ancient Egyptians who probably invented the astrological houses--based on their lived experiences of their environments.

Ptolemy recorded lots of thunder-storms in late summer and water at the end of summer. Interestingly this period coincides with 0.00 average rainfall. :smile: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandria#Climate http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/2C*.html#11
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
The Moon joys in the 3rd


Mars joys in the 6th
The Sun joys in the 9th
Saturn joys in the 12th

These are all cadent houses, infact they are all of the cadent houses.

Cadent houses are the only house quadruplicity to have a planet in it's joy in every house.
Yet cadent houses are considered weak, why would these be the best places for these planets to be? e.g. is the Sun strengthened by being in the house of it's joy or weakened by being in a cadent house, how does one reconcile the two concepts?
Not much if anything on JOYS in ancient texts :smile:

'....Venus rejoices in the 5th house
because it is the house of joy and delight and dancing
and she signifies this
therefore she rejoices in it
because the rest of the houses do not signify this....' BONATTI
the inference seems to be
that JOY houses have analogy with the planet
and no other house has that analogy
and
A planet that has an analogy with the house
is more certain to bring about the promise
or potential of that house.
But
JOY clearly outweighed by SIGN and ASPECTS.
i.e.
Venus in Aries in 5th
is not the same as
Venus in Libra in 5th
and both are different from
Venus in Pisces in 5th
 

petosiris

Banned
Our friends Ptolemy and Valens...

As much as I prefer to distinguish between signs and houses, there is some evidence of one (of several) house systems that identified the houses' thematic contents with the zodiac signs. For example, the cadent third house is sometimes called the house of brothers. This bears little resemblance to the goddess or to the moon joying in the 3rd house, but it relates a lot to the third sign of Gemini.

Indubitably, but our mutual friend Valens actually used another sign = house division. :smile:

If the transmission is from <the XII Place of the> Good Daimon, <the V Place of> Good Fortune, or
from the Lot of Fortune, and if benefics are in aspect, there will be inheritances, gifts, or a cause of some
good. If the fatal Places transmit to Places which precede the angles or vice-versa, the native will hear of
someone’s death while abroad or as a result of travel. (The four Places which precede the angles serve as
Places of Foreigners and of Slaves.) Likewise in any nativity Gemini and Sagittarius have the same general
effect as the Place of Slaves because of their zodiacal position: when Cancer is in the Ascendant, the Place of
Slaves falls in these signs. So even when a native has the Place of Slaves in another sign, /172P/ but has
malefics in these <Gemini Sagittarius>, he will experience disturbances and injuries from slaves, even
penalties, death, and flight, especially if Saturn is in these Places. If benefics are in these Places, the native
will be thought well of <by slaves> and will receive benefits from them, and he himself will be a benefactor
of slaves, or will indeed raise some, treating them as his children.
- https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf :smile:

There is no surviving evidence of a Hellenistic astrologer
making the same association between the sixth house and Virgo to my knowledge :smile:
Maybe you can substantiate your claim for Gemini = 3rd house with a single quote like this :smile:
 

HoldOrFold

Well-known member
Not much if anything on JOYS in ancient texts :smile:

'....Venus rejoices in the 5th house
because it is the house of joy and delight and dancing
and she signifies this
therefore she rejoices in it
because the rest of the houses do not signify this....' BONATTI



Though as was mentioned before, many of the meanings of the houses may have actually derived from the joys.

Chris Brennan:

This close association between the meaning of the names of certain houses and the astrological meaning of the planets that have their joys in the same places seems to imply a relationship between the two concepts. This connection can be confirmed by the 4th century astrologer Firmicus Maternus, who at one point in the introductory material of his Mathesis says that the 5th house “is called the Good Fortune, because it is the house of Venus.” Similarly, he says that the 6th is called Bad Fortune “…because it is the house of Mars.” [https://www.hellenisticastrology.com/the-planetary-joys.pdf]



But
JOY clearly outweighed by SIGN and ASPECTS.
i.e.
Venus in Aries in 5th
is not the same as
Venus in Libra in 5th
and both are different from
Venus in Pisces in 5th


Of course, that was never a concern of mine. What I really wanted to figure out is if/how the joys override the weakness of cadency. I think I'm starting to get a better understanding though from some of the replies here and on skyscript, still not 100% on it though.
 

HoldOrFold

Well-known member
I would like to see one share an example of that (not in general, as in dignified planets giving good stuff as rulers, but under the specified conditions in that post- like does a favourable Sun in 9th bring more rank than an afflicted powerful Sun in 10th?).

I'd like to see that too if anyone manages to find anything.
 

petosiris

Banned
5. The Sects of the Stars.
It is necessary to examine the sects of the stars: for day births the sun, Jupiter, and Saturn rejoice above the earth; for night births, below the earth. For night births the moon, Mars, and Venus rejoice above the earth; for day births below the earth. Mercury rejoices according to the sect of the houseruler in whose terms the star is located. Consequently for day births, if a nativity is found to have Jupiter, the sun, or Saturn favorably configured above the earth, this will be better than having them below the earth. Likewise <for night births> it is advantageous if the nocturnal stars are found above the earth. Venus particularly rejoices when in the Ascendant or at MC; the rest rejoice in the Ascendant or Descendant. - https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf

The same term (rejoicing) is used as for the seven planetary joys. The last sentence is particularly interesting, and may allude to some alternate arrangements by some Hellenistic astrologers - Manilius assigns Saturn to the 4th, and Venus to the 10th (I vaguely remember the latter being discussed in a surviving Hellenistic horoscope either by Deborah Houlding or Dorian Greenbaum). These arrangements of course more uncommon than the traditional joys.
 

HoldOrFold

Well-known member
The same term (rejoicing) is used as for the seven planetary joys. The last sentence is particularly interesting, and may allude to some alternate arrangements by some Hellenistic astrologers - Manilius assigns Saturn to the 4th, and Venus to the 10th (I vaguely remember the latter being discussed in a surviving Hellenistic horoscope either by Deborah Houlding or Dorian Greenbaum). These arrangements of course more uncommon than the traditional joys.

Chris Brennan mentions this in that paper linked above:


Manilius is the only ancient author who described an alternate scheme for the joys, where Venus
rejoices in the 10th rather than the 5th, and Saturn in the 4th rather than the 12th. Unfortunately, since Manilius’ text is the only one which contains this alternate scheme, it is unclear whether his
arrangement represents a genuine variant tradition, an error in the textual transmission, or an
idiosyncratic addition of his own. Both the arguments for and against viewing Manilius’ variant as
legitimate have been made by different scholars in the past two decades.


-
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
What I really wanted to figure out is
if/how the joys override the weakness of cadency.
I think I'm starting to get a better understanding though
from some of the replies here and on skyscript,
still not 100% on it though.
a planet in Joy IS strengthened
when that planet in JOY is located in a CADENT house

and
the accidental debility of cadency is MINIMISED


nevertheless
the EXTENT to which the CADENCY is MINIMISED
is arguable
the main factor is
that a planet in JOY is HAPPIEST in the house of its JOY
more so than in any other house of the natal chart :smile:
 
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petosiris

Banned
Chris Brennan mentions this in that paper linked above:


Manilius is the only ancient author who described an alternate scheme for the joys, where Venus
rejoices in the 10th rather than the 5th, and Saturn in the 4th rather than the 12th. Unfortunately, since Manilius’ text is the only one which contains this alternate scheme, it is unclear whether his
arrangement represents a genuine variant tradition, an error in the textual transmission, or an
idiosyncratic addition of his own. Both the arguments for and against viewing Manilius’ variant as
legitimate have been made by different scholars in the past two decades.


-

I seem to recall a horoscope (a second source besides Manilius, discussed by Deborah Houlding or more probably Dorian Greenbaum) mentioning the 10th as a temple of Venus. Seems to me a legitimate variant, but unpopular, as I mentioned. And most of Hellenistic astrology doesn't survive, Ptolemy and especially Valens reject some popular arguments and astrological systems that literally can't be encountered elsewhere - cf. 1.12, 1.20, 1.21 and 1.22 of the Tetrabiblos. I think it goes without saying that any attempt of historical reconstruction is tentative.

I see no evidence for Brennan and Dykes rationale for the triplicities based on the joys, instead the ancient authors seem to agree that it is based on sect and rulership - cf. Valens' Anthology 2.1 and Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos 1.18. Ptolemy's use of Mars as sole ruler of the Scorpio triplicity is older than him - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1017480&postcount=3 Furthermore, the ancient Babylonians had the four triplicities (with the same directions of winds given by Geminus) with four planetary associations that are also used in both versions of Hellenistic triplicities - Aries, Leo and Sagittarius with Jupiter, Taurus, Virgo and Capricorn with Venus, Gemini, Libra and Aquarius with Saturn, Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces with Mars. These or the alternative Hellenistic triplicities (cutting Venus and the third lords) can't be derived from this scheme from the start. Therefore I think this pattern, like the exaltation pattern given by Porphyry, is entirely coincidental.
 
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petosiris

Banned
a planet in Joy IS strengthened
when that planet in JOY is located in a CADENT house

and
the accidental debility of cadency is MINIMISED


nevertheless
the EXTENT to which the CADENCY is MINIMISED
is arguable
the main factor is
that a planet in JOY is HAPPIEST in the house of its JOY
more so than in any other house of the natal chart :smile:

Interesting, how can the Sun be happier in the 9th than in the 10th with any (be it though minimised) debility? :smile:
 

HoldOrFold

Well-known member
a planet in Joy IS strengthened
when that planet in JOY is located in a CADENT house

and
the accidental debility of cadency is MINIMISED


nevertheless
the EXTENT to which the CADENCY is MINIMISED
is arguable
the main factor is
that a planet in JOY is HAPPIEST in the house of its JOY
more so than in any other house of the natal chart :smile:

This summary is pretty much where I'm at in my head with all of this as well
 

petosiris

Banned
What is the relationship between happiness and power?
Petosiris has implied (or explicitly stated, can’t recall the exact words) that planetary strength and life rank are correlated, and power.
It’s my own opinion that happiness is not connected to the constant exercise of power and consciousness of rank.
There are many ways to experience pleasure that have little to do with either, or in fact have to do with the deliberate absence of either rank or power.
In learning, for example, one is happiest and in flow by adopting an inquisitive, nearly innocent sensibility unafraid of not-knowing. (Thinking of Moon joying in 3h.)

Since the Sun traditionally rules over dignity, honours and social status, it does matter. I can totally understand the concept of happiness from health (Ascendant), mind (Moon), wealth (Part of Fortune), career (Midheaven) and so on, though astrologers use the concept of dignity in those matters in the same way. :smile:
 

petosiris

Banned
Valens and Ptolemy clearly equate fortune of dignity/rank with happiness. It magnifies the things you do and the impact you make on the world, something valued by most world religions - deeds.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Ptolemy recorded lots of thunder-storms in late summer and water at the end of summer. Interestingly this period coincides with 0.00 average rainfall. :smile: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandria#Climate http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/2C*.html#11

I've wondered about this, and I think we've raised this point before.

I'm not clear that Ptolemy was always talking about his local environment. As a geographer as well as an astrology author*, he also wrote extensively about various places, and may have referred to places with more temperate climate regimes in continental Europe where late summer thunder storms would have been common.

I've also wondered about whether precession would make a difference.

*I've got a copy of Ptolemy's tome on geography, most of which consists of cataloging latitudes and longitudes of places in the known world. Cf. with the more empirical Almagest.
 
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