Black Moon Lillith

Thanks for those awesome websites... now you've got me really interested.

I have BML trining my MC exactly. Cancer and Scorpio respectively. What do you make of that, if anything? She is also in a 1 degree orb with my part of fortune, both in the 6th house, trining my MC, and a 2 degree orb with my Pluto that is conjunct my MC.

Lillith in my chart is conjunct Chiron in a 2 degree orb... in gemini, in the 6th house. I always get caught if I gossip about my fellow employees!

I'm not too keen on her descriptions. Using "castration" as a term for losing something or succumbing to something is decidedly masculine and doesn't apply to *ahem* a good portion of society. I am not a fan of metaphorical language for this reason. A good metaphor reaches the masses. I also think it is strange that she is considered to be unbridled, unintegrated, feminine sexuality. If she plays such a strong role in powerful women's charts, why aren't we talking about Ixion and the numerous merciless male dictators this world has seen?
 
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Kingsley

Well-known member
The fixed star Algol is also about intense feminine sexuality, the power of attraction. We all have male and female parts in personality says Carl Jung.

Perhaps BML and part of fortune in your chart Mod Cleo is where your natural talents for being of service will arise in unconscious ways, that you will follow a path without thinking about what that means in your life and it will feel natural. It turns out that you can utilize black moon lilith energy constructively in your life's direction. Pluto is also a sub conscious energy where the extent of power is unknown until it is actualy used. Of course one must learn to reflect on that power in order to harness the energy.

Put it this way, It has taken me 50 years, a hell of a lot of experiences and some very good training to form a working relationship to my BML. Countertransference in relationships and indeed counselling work isn't really a bad thing especially if one knows they do that.

Sometimes with Pluto at the Mc, means that no career is ok or that changing careers from Nuclear phycisist to artist is completely understandable. Part of Fortune in the sixth house is a talent for daily management of the mundane however intense that might be. The ruler of POF will have some say though.

It is hard to imagine being involved with astrology and not to benefit from all the metaphors ModCleo.

kingsley
 

starlink

Well-known member
Kingsley, you said:

BML is like the Vertex, or a 'fixed star' in the chart and only shows an emphasis when there is conjunction to a point or planet.

So an exact square from BML to Venus or Ascendant or an exact opposition do not show up in the personality that much?
So I dont really have to try to understand the meaning any further of my T-square Lillith-Venus-Neptune? What a relief!!

The links you gave are (finally) making me understand a bit more about Lillith, thanks a lot!

Starlink:)
 

cjc

Well-known member
But, wasn't it recently stated (by Radu, I think) that calculated points should not be included in planetary configurations???

c
 

Kingsley

Well-known member
I am not sure of the context of that statement cjc, the nodes are calculated points along with part of fortune. I guess what I am saying is that when BML is conjunct (+- 2 degrees) another planet or angle, the attributes of lilith are more pronounced. I would suspect that everyone has Lilith in personality somewhere, however its close placement to a chart function will describe a more obvious "lilithy" process.

kingsley
 

cjc

Well-known member
Kingsley, of course you would look at aspects to/by calculated points that you might use. However, the statement I was making (sorry if I wasn't clear) is that you wouldn't use one of these (BML, Nodes, PoF, Vtx, etc) as part of a T-square, grand trine, or other formation. I never have, and agree wholeheartedly with whomever made that statement recently.

Of course, you might look at the fact that in many of these formations, the point may be close to the midpoints of other planets and influence your reading.

c
 
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well I mean... Lilith might have gone off copulating with devils... because I suppose that's the only person Adam (and the men who wrote the bible) could stand to believe she could do after missing out on that oblivious hottie Adam supposedly was. Killing children? Sure. Because any woman who wants to NOT do a man's bidding must also HATE children... ridiculous... this is what I mean by problems with metaphors. I would agree, kingsley, that astrology (and the world) would be lost/nothing without metaphor (*ahem* Nietzsche put this very well I believe) HOWEVER, the story of Lillith clearly demonstrates how metaphor reveals our biases, and this case, our sexism. Lillith represents what is evil to a male-dominated world... which has a lot of evil in it as it stands, without this supposedly feminine cruelty. So she had some fun with a Beelzebub? Let's start with that ridiculous bit about women submitting to men... maybe she got a little pissed? I mean, its just the roots of anti-feminism right there... but alas...

I'm interested in this BML and how it interacts in the charts of children and their parents... any thoughts?
 
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starlink

Well-known member
CJC, I indeed dont include those points in chart configurations . the Nodes of the Moon however, can be included. I use them to figure out relationship problems, if that should be indicated.

Star.
 

starlink

Well-known member
Cleopatra, I am and always have been for simplicity. I remember long ago, when I just came into this Forum, that I heard about all the stars and stripes in the sky and I commented: I actually get enough information from my dear 10 planets without also including all the other bits and pieces, clogging up my view. Draco, who was moderator at the time, agreed totally with that.

I know that traditional astrology, based on ancient knowledge, is very much using arabic points for instance, also terms and faces of planets positions. This is like our decanades and dwads. But really, I would only go into this nitty gritty stuff if I am dealing with twins or triplets, to see the fine differences between them. It really takes up loads of time to look at every little star and asteroid and point.

In horary astrology I do look at arabic points and all the above mentioned details. I could not do without them, it is an entirely different approach .
However, if you want to look only at one aspect of a natal chart, like work, then maybe I would include looking at Vesta. When only about a relationshipfactor, I include Juno. In such cases I think it will give more information. But with a general reading I dont. I recently include Chiron which I also never really did because I came to the same conclusion via other aspects. Lillith is second in line and little by little I start to "get it".
the story of Lillith clearly demonstrates how metaphor reveals our biases, and this case, our sexism.
Exactly.

Everything that is a bit abstract is difficult for me to grasp and BML and some asteroids give me such vague info (one person says this, the other that) that I rather figure it out for myself or not use it at all. I want something more concrete (typical Taurus of course :)).

Starlink
 

Kingsley

Well-known member
I totaly agree Starlink. There is a wealth of work and info in the planets alone, without the need for asteroids, fixed stars, arabian parts, hypotheticals, midpoints and liliths to worry about.

In my learning of astrology I may have touched on subjects that I didnt understand and got back to them when they became a prioritory in my life. That is I would spend time on a natal chart function that reflected the learning stage or some psychological integration I was going through at the time. I came back to Lilith about two years ago and it made sense to me then, I could finally understand that part in me. It just wasn't possible before that time.

kingsley
 

cjc

Well-known member
Star Dear,

I couldn't agree with you more about simplicity. I use 7 + 3. Major focus on the traditional planets plus generational, aspect, and transit use of the outers.

But using the Nodes is right on the border... Which node? Mean or true? The choice here can mean the difference between being in or out of orb. I feel the Nodes are very valid points. Just look at their value in eclipses. But, here we go again, complicating things... Which do you use? I just consider them ballpark figures and don't get too worked up over them unless there's a very real reason for using them, such as synastry where I use the same calculations for both.

c
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
starlink said:
..I actually get enough information from my dear 10 planets without also including all the other bits and pieces, clogging up my view. Draco, who was moderator at the time, agreed totally with that.
..And me does, too, just like Draco and Kingsley. I also think that Saturn or Uranus etc..are much more influential through the aspects they make, or perhaps even through their mere placements in a natal chart, all of which will play out much stronger than a star or asteroid would. Ok, the only 'extra' that I include is Chiron mainly, and yes, sometimes, I am inclined to at least understand the influence of BML.

:)aquarius7000
 

starlink

Well-known member
Hi Aquarius, yes, I do use Chiron now as well. Cant really call it "use". I note his position, then ask myself why it is there. Lets say it is in the 2nd house. Something very painful about self-worth and finances. Then I start looking for the causes. I dont see Chiron as the cause. OK, lets say I find the cause in the 4th house, usually. The individual had a brother who took things away from him all the time or the parents never gave him pocket money or were more attentive of the brother. His selfconfidence and selfworth diminished. Thats why we see Chiron in the 2nd. Now how serious is this "wound"? The aspects to Chiron will tell you how serious it is and also maybe how he can heal this wound. Now that part I still have to totally comprehend. Probably the trines and sextiles to Chiron show that part.
Starlink
 

Night Sky

Well-known member
Here is some info I found on Astrothem

"Lilith or the Dark Moon represents the uncrossable threshold, taboos, the individual's provocative and fascinating side, including on a sexual level. She symbolizes violence and "untameability", the radical and deep-seated refusal to submit. The keywords for Lilith can be sterility, sadism, perversity, castration, sadomasochism, eroticism, orgasm, forbidden fantasies, marginality, cruelty; redemption, illumination, rebelliousness... Lilith's opposite point is called Priapus; it is the Lunar perigee, the position where the Moon is closest to the Earth. It symbolizes man's primitive nature, the horror hidden in our deepest self; masochism, extreme sensuality, impulsiveness, irrationality and excess. Physically speaking, the Dark Moon is the focal point unoccupied by the Earth : it is not a concrete body but a mathematical point."


Does anyone have any information on Priapus? Are we in a sense talking about another set of Lunar nodes? This is all new to me.;)
 

emotionality

Well-known member
So I was on this site www.clairvision.com and I was using their Virtual Astrologer ..I plug in the numbers expecting to see stuff I already knew about but to my surprise/chagrin.It tells me Black Moon Lillith is prominent in my chart : ( please forgive any redundancy )

Black Moon (score=170) is very strong because:
• closely conjunct Midheaven (+=115)
• square Sun (+=40)
• trine Moon (+=25)

(Black Moon (Cap 11°44') Ascendant (Ari 15°43') wax. sep. square (90°00') orb: 3°59'
Black Moon (Cap 11°44') Midheaven (Cap 07°38') app. conjunction (0°00') orb: 4°05'
Black Moon (Cap 11°44') Pallas (Sco 11°31') wan. app. sextile (60°00') orb: 0°13'
Black Moon (Cap 11°44') Vertex (Lib 06°18') wan. app. square (90°00') orb: 5°25'
Black Moon (Cap 11°44') East Point (Ari 09°03') wax. app. square (90°00') orb: 2°40')
Mercury square Black Moon (orb: 6°53’)
Black Moon conjunct Midheaven (orb: 4°05’)
Jupiter sextile Black Moon (orb: 0°50’)
Moon trine Black Moon (orb: 7°39’)
North Node opposed Black Moon (orb: 3°36’)
Black Moon square Ascendant (orb: 3°59’)



followed by Saturn,Jup etc.
It kind of freaked me out because once I started researching it I came across all these things about BML and serial killers and horrible people and it bothered me a lot.
Also the fact that its in my south node .. can't really be a good thing can it..I have yet to kill any children or any animals or anything so I suppose that's a good sign for lillith..Nor do I fight authority or have any sort of animosity towards men ( well that hasn't been culitvated by outside influences) I'm 25 though.. there's quite a while left for me to go on any rampages ingrained into me o_O

However after discovering this thread I still have mixed feelings about what I can draw from all those figures up there but I think I have a little more positive ( in a feminine power kind of way )mixed in than I did previously.(which my veiw entailed pretty much queen of the slaughterhouse) :D So , there is my BML business I at least feel a little better sharing it.And if I am making a moutain out of a molehill please do tell me for I don't know any better :p

P.s I sure hope this is somewhat relevant if not I'm really sorry..
*crawls back under rock*
 

Kingsley

Well-known member
Hello Emotionality, That seems like a good system to weight the Lilith in that scoring system kind of way. It does take some time getting used to understanding Lilith in the chart or personality. I think when you can begin to write about your own lilith 's opperation rather than be guided by others descriptions you will have truly understood Lilith in the personality. I would say that Lilithh at the Mc by 4 degree orb is reasonably "lilith significant".

Good post thankyou very much,

kingsley
 

flea

Well-known member
hmm it is one part of my chart that i have yet to make sense of...... I too have lilith on the MC at 17deg in aq, MC is 19deg tightly conjunct juno. This sextiles the sun and squares neptune. I am more of a gentle quiet person, not without strength I must add, but quiet unimposing ego for the most part.
With all this goddess energy on my MC I think about what this forms, sun and neptune talk about the division between the dream and the reality. With saturn in my 10th I think I may be older when this aspect comes into flesh so to speak.

Does Lilith talk about our shaddow fears?? Those lost parts of the goddess that remain unintegrated, unaccepted, and therefor feared, like the witches of old?? I am fascinated and compelled with worked with the right side of the brain and intuitive thought....interested in peoples thoughts on the matter.

Love Light Flea
 
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