Birth charts of people born in polar region.

Domna

Well-known member
If you are still looking I could provide details for myself and a couple relatives born in Vaasa, Finland. On the 63rd parallel north.
 

waybread

Well-known member
I would be interested. Please say something about the house system you normally use, and how your and your relatives' lives turned out so far.
 

Domna

Well-known member
Ok, I'll post anonymized charts here, anyone who wants birth data can pm me.

I'm not loyal to any particular house system. I look at several different, placidus, whole, equal... that gives me an idea of the variation between the systems and I tend to take that variation into account. Usually I'll find that the various systems all have something to give to the interpretation. I wouldn't use placidus alone here in the north though, it just tends to get a bit too skewed. In my own chart there isn't much difference between systems, but both of my parents have more extreme charts. I'll post the charts using placidus.

First file is my own chart. I'm 34. I have a couple university degrees and work part time as a librarian. Rest of the time I'm very creatively active. I'm a singer and fiber artist of some local fame. Very aesthetically preoccupied in general. Lots of intellectual interests too, but a bit of a jack of all trades, master of none. Happily single and childfree, never had or wanted any romantic/sexual relationships. Bit of a loner and misfit, lol.

Second file is my dad's chart. He is 63 and a fairly successful freelance builder. Very competent and conscientious, and a bit of a workoholic. Prefers working alone. Quite active also in various local organizations and a board member of a couple. Has a hard time saying no, but enjoys being needed. Not the best at communicating or showing emotion. Bit of a loner with just more superficial friendships. Married once, to my mum, now divorced. In a new relationship now.

Third file is my mum's chart. She is 56. Struggling artist and writer. On disability due to mental health issues. Also several physical health issues. Addictive personality. Was never a good student, but has self-studied and is now very knowledgeable in areas such as philosophy, art history, literature... Very spiritual but not into organized religion. Good at making friends and tends to have really close friendships. Married once, to my dad. Has since had one very intimate platonic partnership, but partner died of cancer a few years back.
 

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waybread

Well-known member
Thank you, Domna. What house system are you using with these three charts?

I have heard a theory, maybe proposed by Scandinavians who live well south of the Arctic Circle, that actually being born or living so far north does affect people's personalities [I think Scandinavians also have jokes about members of the different countries.... ]

Do you think having some small compressed houses and a few large ones does in some way say something correct about people born at such high latitudes?

I understood that Scandinavian and a lot of British astrologers prefer equal houses, but I can't see the rationale for them, myself. I think it would make more sense to use whole signs.

Another problem is that with whole signs, a far northern birth can put the MC in the 12th house. Once when I was looking for examples of high latitude births, I came across a former Finnish prime minister. His charts illustrate the problem.
 

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Domna

Well-known member
I used placidus in those charts Waybread.

I've heard that theory too but to be honest it makes little sense to me. In other northern locations maybe the case could be made, where life is more extreme because of the remoteness. But here in Scandinavia life is pretty much the same as elsewhere in Europe.
 
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piercethevale

Well-known member
I would like to make a comment here, if not a suggestion, as that is what is actually implied in the following.
Firs, I want to state that I don' promote any school [system] of astrology over that of any other. Or, rather, I don't have an agenda to do so. My involvement with the study has bee, more or less, to perpetuate that which my brother began about 40 years ago. That is to find what does work and weed out what doesn't. That He showed me what He had found, at that time [August 1984] what He had found that does work, and being convinced of it, I took to interest not for the sake of finding more than He had, as He is of much greater intelligence and I thought that He would continue on in the effort. He found other interests to pursue, some time thereafter, one of which was to go back to college and get a degree [which He did around the year 2000 and had earned five degrees by 2007. I did say that He is of far greater intelligence than I am, I probably should have wrote that He is of great intelligence, period. [I.Q. of around 160, or more.] What I lack is in reading comprehension and verbal, something or another, that is to say reading and writing/speaking. I continued on with it as it helped me greatly to understand the relationships I had with others, i.e. astrological synastry.

That all being said, I can now proceed with that "suggestion".
It was just by "luck", some may say, that I eventually produced by a project I had assigned to myself, to occupy the months it was going to take to endure a long drawn out lawsuit against my former employer, but began by taking a long-shot "stab at it" to see what might come up for a certain day in history from a source I trust, and added to that day a hunch I had, that was drawn from my own personal experience, as to what the time of that day that historic event was given as to have had occurred.
The result of that was that I never went any further, as I had found enough evidence for my own satisfaction [overwhelmingly so, but I wish to be taken as for being modest.] If you have no idea of what I'm going on about, then please see my thread in the Degree Symbols sub-forum that is titled, "Birth chart of Jesus?".

I used the Placidus House system for that chart when I first attempted it and have since cast it again using different House systems as well. It is the system my brother was using when He introduced me to this study but I don't know if He was entirely convinced of it at the time, although He may well have been? It is what I then used from that day on but have since become entirely convinced of. Although, I have never cast a chart for anyone born in the extremes of Northern or Southern latitudes, nor have I studied the charts of anyone of historical or well known public figures, that were born in such latitudes, either. Yet, to my reasoning, it shouldn't make any difference as to what I'm going to suggest.

The only drawback to this suggestion, as to the immediate moment, is I can't remember where I read, or from whom I heard, the following [by heard, I am referring to my brother, and if so then I am almost certain He would also say that it is from the same source as to the written] but if I did read of it, then undoubtedly it was from Dane Rudhyar.
That is the following. The symbolism [Sabian] found for the Sign and degree of the cusp of the 12th House is that which is the individuals' answer to what they perceive to be the greatest problem [that is to say the biggest, or most challenging and of greatest consequence] that is confronting the world at large [world society of mankind, that is]. Placidus I found, provides the only logical conclusion, and I tried many of the others astrodienst offers [although there may be more offered at present?] and it seems that even Dane Rudhyar never was 100% sure of which House system as I found that every natal chart, that I know of, that He published for reference in any of his works was in the Campanus system. Had He lived so long as to see this chart that I produced, posted in the aforementioned thread, I'm rather sure that He would have endorsed the Placidus system. [as it is known, and was a recent admonishment to someone that attempted publication of Dane's early beliefs by his widow, the fourth and last wife Dane had, Leyla Rael, that Dane held a few early beliefs that He found reason to change later in life. Then it is very possible that He did endorse the Placidus system later on... and as much a possibility that it was before He ever issued that statement about the 12th House cusp... not to mention that I likely read of it in his book on the Sabian Symbols which wasn't published until 1973 when He was 78 years old.]

One of the methods of astrological technique that my brother convinced me as to being about 100% reliable is the use of Sabian Symbols... as to those presented, and interpreted, by the late Dane Rudhyar in, his book, "An Astrological Mandala". Placidus is the only system, out of all those I did eventually try for the sake of my own satisfaction, that proved itself to be the correct system to use. As it alone produces the 4th degree of Virgo for the 12th House cusp [although I did just now attempt it with the Morinus system which produced 03° Virgo 01', while the Placidus gives the position as 03* Virgo 13' [as to as late as Sept. 2010. Astrodienst has changed the program a number of times since then, most notably moving Pluto 01' 59" and by doing so moved Pluto's location millions of miles from where they said it had been since I produced the first chart on November 7, 2004, even though the recent NASA probe sent to photograph Pluto was using the same program that Astrodienst felt a need to change, and though they did move it by that amount there was no change to any position of Pluto a short time afterward and to those they give for over 2,000 years after that... go figure?]

The Sabian Symbol for the 4th degree of Virgo, as given by Dane Rudhyar in his book "An Astrological Mandala" is...

"VIRGO 4°: BLACK AND WHITE CHILDREN PLAY TOGETHER HAPPILY.
KEYNOTE:
The overcoming of socio-cultural prejudices.
Freedom from all the forms, biases and idiosyncrasies of the particular culture and class in which one has been born and educated is a sine qua non of the consciousness truly 'on the Path'. The ideal of universal brotherhood underlies all great spiritual teachings, for they all are like branches of the One Tree, Man, in his divine state. This does not mean there are no racial differences, but rather that these differences have a functional value in terms of the whole organism of Man — and of the planet Earth.

At this fourth stage the basic technique which applies to all truly spiritual progress is clearly stated. Every human being should be seen, approached and warmly met as a 'child of God', or in less religious terms as an exemplar of Man. Such a status gives to every social and interpersonal group the character of a
BROTHERHOOD
.
"

I would have to imagine that will suffice as to all the evidence one would need to come to understand that it is Placidus that is the only House system to use. That is unless you don't believe in the veracity of the Sabian Symbols, or at least don't believe that the 12th House cusp symbolically represents that? You can try all the different House systems to see what they produce and look up the corresponding Sabian Symbol, if you're not convinced at present.
Although if the life and teachings of the Nazarene are completely unfamiliar to you, then there is nothing more I can say, or suggest that you attempt, in order to try to convince you... except, that is, try all the aforementioned with your own birth chart, and see if the Sabian Symbol for the Sign and degree produced by Placidus, for the 12th House cusp, doesn't symbolize the answer to what you perceive as being the most daunting problem the world is challenged by?
I did that too, and the result was the same... the Sabian Symbol for the 12th House cusp did in fact produce that answer I have for the worlds most daunting problem...and, now that I think of it, possibly yours' too, as well.
Check it out.... the Sabian Symbol for my 12th House cusp, Placidus.
[ibid.]

"LIBRA 25°: THE SIGHT OF AN AUTUMN LEAF BRINGS TO A PILGRIM THE SUDDEN REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY OF LIFE AND DEATH.
KEYNOTE:
The ability to discover in every experience a transcendent or cosmic meaning.

The mind open to the multifarious wonders of natural processes, because it sees everything with fresh eyes, not only witnesses simple facts, but pierces through appearances and perceives the great rhythms of universal life. Without such a faculty the aspirant to spiritual realities is always looking for 'elsewhere'. Yet the spirit, life, God is ever present, here and now. And every death is an omen of rebirth.

At this fifth stage of the forty-first five-fold sequence of phases of the cosmic process, the implications of the four preceding stages are brought to a new state of consciousness which is truly the spiritual state. It is a state of
CLAIR-SEEING, or 'seeing through'. This world is illusion only to the individual who cannot see through its phenomena and fails to apprehend the reality these phenomena reveal even as they conceal it.
"

The "signs of truth" are all around us, and when one opens their self to that by eliminating any preconceived notion, eliminating all bias, then that person has that ability of "clair-seeing".

Other than the above. By happenstance, I came across the posted chart of a forum member, just a few days ago, that happens to have been born in a region of extreme latitude. That members' moniker is vagabondgirl. But, she hasn't participated in the forum for a good many years as to the present. Perhaps she still visits on occasion without logging in? Or, maybe another member who is active knows a means by which to contact her? You can find Her natal chart in one of the files located at her personal profile page.

I do recall that Dane made some mention about how the first House gets to be so large in the most extremes of latitude that everything seems to be withing he first House. As the first house is basically about ones' own survival, then if one is born so close to ether Pole then it is their survival that is the answer to just about anything that concerns them, including the world... ifyaknowaddimean?

As I have come to say, and did use as the precept for the title of the book I wrote about that chart I produced for the "Nazarene ". it is a "template" to understanding. I have even called it "the Rosetta Stone of Astrological understanding" I also often say, and likely will until the day I die, that the Sabian Symbols are the ultimate tool for rectification.

I wish you God speed and that you get the answers which you seek.
I think that you will.

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Arena

Well-known member
I'm born at 66° latitude. I'm pretty sure you would want to look into the Equatorial Ascendant or the East point as the alternative for ASC for polar regions. That would mean you always place the MC in the 10th house (where the Sun is at its highest during the day).

I remember that I read some yrs back about a man who established something called polar ASC which is quite close to the EP.

As you can see by looking at the Finnish pm's chart posted in this thread it fits quite well with having Jupiter conjunct MC/10th house and the Sun conj POF on your rising EP/polar ASC to be very well known locally and possibly internationally as a PM of a country.
 

Ecliptique

Well-known member
Good evening everyone,





I thank you for your interventions.



At first, I offer several interpretations based on systems of houses of different types (whole signs, quadrant, equal, or even other) to see what emerges ...





Ecliptique. :smile:
 

Cruiser1

Well-known member
Most house systems work near the poles. They may not work the way astrologers want them to work, but that's a different issue. ;) If you don't mind the larger or smaller houses (and the increased probability of intercepted signs and houses) then you can always get valid house cusps and a valid chart.

The only house systems which don't work everywhere are Placidus and Koch. These two simply aren't defined above the Arctic Circle, and attempting to cast a chart above the Arctic Circle will fall back to a different house system (for example Astro.com will switch to Porphyry). Note that this doesn't mean Placidus and Koch are "bad" systems or inaccurate. It just means that (at least for now) they're incomplete systems, and the formulas used to calculate them need to be updated to do something when above the Arctic Circle. (However, just switching to Equal or related systems isn't ideal, because doing so will result in discontinuous sudden jumps of house positions when stepping across the Arctic Circle.) Actually, there are ways to make the Placidus formulas work near the poles, but they require weird 3D models which can result in certain houses being out of order, absent altogether, or intersecting the ecliptic in more than one place, which of course doesn't display well in a classic 2D wheel chart.

Speaking of 3D models, part of the problem with houses near the poles is due to their attempt to fit a 3D model of the celestial sphere onto a 2D wheel chart. Houses are related to the local horizon and divide local space, with the 1st house on or near the Eastern horizon, and the 10th house on the meridian. In other words, visualizing houses is similar to visualizing divisions along the prime vertical running from East to Zenith point straight up to West. Near the equator, the ecliptic or plane of the zodiac is close to the plane of the prime vertical, so signs and houses are similar. However, near the poles, the ecliptic is near the horizon, which is 90 degrees offset from the prime vertical. Trying to shoehorn houses into house cusps defined along the ecliptic doesn't work well, and results in abnormally large/small houses, which some don't like.

For this reason, I like 3D house systems, which don't just define divisions along the ecliptic, but are actually areas of local space. That means there are no longer house cusps in the classic sense defined by a single zodiac position, since two bodies at the same zodiac position can be in different houses, because their ecliptic latitudes differ. My favorite is 3D Campanus, because it's the simplest and most fundamental, and is an Equal system in which each house covers exactly 30 degrees (if you look at its 3D model). Campanus is defined as 12 equal sized wedges covering the local horizon, which makes sense since houses are inherently related to the local horizon. It's only the 2D cross section as displayed in a classic 2D wheel in which Campanus houses appear to be irregularly sized. In summary, Campanus houses (in its 3D model) is the only system in which all three of the following are true:
  • All 12 houses are equal sized and cover the same amount of the celestial sphere.
  • A planet above the horizon will always be in houses 7-12, and a planet below the horizon will always be in houses 1-6.
  • A planet east of the meridian will always be in houses 1-3 or 10-12, and a planet west of the meridian will always be in houses 4-9.
 

Ecliptique

Well-known member
Most house systems work near the poles. They may not work the way astrologers want them to work, but that's a different issue. ;) If you don't mind the larger or smaller houses (and the increased probability of intercepted signs and houses) then you can always get valid house cusps and a valid chart.

The only house systems which don't work everywhere are Placidus and Koch. These two simply aren't defined above the Arctic Circle, and attempting to cast a chart above the Arctic Circle will fall back to a different house system (for example Astro.com will switch to Porphyry). Note that this doesn't mean Placidus and Koch are "bad" systems or inaccurate. It just means that (at least for now) they're incomplete systems, and the formulas used to calculate them need to be updated to do something when above the Arctic Circle. (However, just switching to Equal or related systems isn't ideal, because doing so will result in discontinuous sudden jumps of house positions when stepping across the Arctic Circle.) Actually, there are ways to make the Placidus formulas work near the poles, but they require weird 3D models which can result in certain houses being out of order, absent altogether, or intersecting the ecliptic in more than one place, which of course doesn't display well in a classic 2D wheel chart.

Speaking of 3D models, part of the problem with houses near the poles is due to their attempt to fit a 3D model of the celestial sphere onto a 2D wheel chart. Houses are related to the local horizon and divide local space, with the 1st house on or near the Eastern horizon, and the 10th house on the meridian. In other words, visualizing houses is similar to visualizing divisions along the prime vertical running from East to Zenith point straight up to West. Near the equator, the ecliptic or plane of the zodiac is close to the plane of the prime vertical, so signs and houses are similar. However, near the poles, the ecliptic is near the horizon, which is 90 degrees offset from the prime vertical. Trying to shoehorn houses into house cusps defined along the ecliptic doesn't work well, and results in abnormally large/small houses, which some don't like.

For this reason, I like 3D house systems, which don't just define divisions along the ecliptic, but are actually areas of local space. That means there are no longer house cusps in the classic sense defined by a single zodiac position, since two bodies at the same zodiac position can be in different houses, because their ecliptic latitudes differ. My favorite is 3D Campanus, because it's the simplest and most fundamental, and is an Equal system in which each house covers exactly 30 degrees (if you look at its 3D model). Campanus is defined as 12 equal sized wedges covering the local horizon, which makes sense since houses are inherently related to the local horizon. It's only the 2D cross section as displayed in a classic 2D wheel in which Campanus houses appear to be irregularly sized. In summary, Campanus houses (in its 3D model) is the only system in which all three of the following are true:
  • All 12 houses are equal sized and cover the same amount of the celestial sphere.
  • A planet above the horizon will always be in houses 7-12, and a planet below the horizon will always be in houses 1-6.
  • A planet east of the meridian will always be in houses 1-3 or 10-12, and a planet west of the meridian will always be in houses 4-9.


Hello Cruiser1,


thanks for your relevant post.



To summarize your choice, you base yourself on the "3D model Campanus" house system for its division into equal zones generated by that into twelve equal parts of the Grand vertical including the great meridian circles (passing through the zenith and the nadir) and horizon (passing through points east and west of the equator). You take into account the ecliptic latitude of the star to determine its position in the house.



In the case of a birth on the Polar Circle whose time gives a local sidereal time = 18h 00mn 00s, the 2D Campanus system (like Regiomontanus) indicates: cusp Houses X, XI & XII = 0° Capricorn and cusps Houses II & III = 0° Cancer (cusp House I = 0° Aries). In this case, does Campanus 3D offer a possible solution of astral position in the XI and II houses?


For your studies of birth charts near or beyond the Polar Circle, do you regularly use the 3D Campanus model or the 2D Campanus system by considering the points obtained on the Grand vertical projected on the ecliptic circle?



Ecliptique. :smile:
 

Cruiser1

Well-known member
In the case of a birth on the Polar Circle whose time gives a local sidereal time = 18h 00mn 00s, the 2D Campanus system (like Regiomontanus) indicates: cusp Houses X, XI & XII = 0° Capricorn and cusps Houses II & III = 0° Cancer (cusp House I = 0° Aries). In this case, does Campanus 3D offer a possible solution of astral position in the XI and II houses?
Yes, for a birth location on or above the Arctic Circle, there will be one time each day when the plane of the ecliptic is exactly overlapping with the horizon. That will make all 2D quadrant house systems (such as Campanus) have the Asc and MC exactly Conjunct or exactly Opposite each other, which will produce several zero sized houses.

Fortunately, that issue doesn't affect 3D Campanus houses! :) Each 3D house is still always an equal sized wedge covering the same 1/12 of the celestial sphere, even above the poles. The fact that the 2D house cusps are small doesn't matter. Remember, when looking in 3D, all houses (such as XI and II) are no longer defined by a single zodiac position. Instead, they're 3D lines which pass through multiple zodiac positions depending on their latitude. That means 3D houses no longer have "cusps" in the simple sense that their boundaries can be fully defined by a single zodiac position.

For your studies of birth charts near or beyond the Polar Circle, do you regularly use the 3D Campanus model or the 2D Campanus system by considering the points obtained on the Grand vertical projected on the ecliptic circle?
Certainly I recommend 3D Campanus, if one has software that can display it. :) For example, see the image below for a comparison between 2D and 3D Campanus. On the left is a classic 2D Campanus wheel, and on the right is the corresponding 3D Campanus on a "chart sphere". Both charts are showing the exact same data and are animating through the same times.

In the chart sphere, white is the horizon line, and green are the 3D Campanus house boundaries. The purple lines indicate the ecliptic and zodiac sign boundaries, which change orientation relative to local space during the day. 2D Campanus cusps can be seen where the purple ecliptic line intersects the green 3D Campanus lines. When the ecliptic is nearly parallel with the horizon, it will produce small 2D Campanus cusps, however regardless of how the ecliptic moves, the 3D boundaries are fixed in size and position and never move.

campanus.gif
 

Ecliptique

Well-known member
Yes, for a birth location on or above the Arctic Circle, there will be one time each day when the plane of the ecliptic is exactly overlapping with the horizon. That will make all 2D quadrant house systems (such as Campanus) have the Asc and MC exactly Conjunct or exactly Opposite each other, which will produce several zero sized houses.

Fortunately, that issue doesn't affect 3D Campanus houses! :) Each 3D house is still always an equal sized wedge covering the same 1/12 of the celestial sphere, even above the poles. The fact that the 2D house cusps are small doesn't matter. Remember, when looking in 3D, all houses (such as XI and II) are no longer defined by a single zodiac position. Instead, they're 3D lines which pass through multiple zodiac positions depending on their latitude. That means 3D houses no longer have "cusps" in the simple sense that their boundaries can be fully defined by a single zodiac position.

Certainly I recommend 3D Campanus, if one has software that can display it. :) For example, see the image below for a comparison between 2D and 3D Campanus. On the left is a classic 2D Campanus wheel, and on the right is the corresponding 3D Campanus on a "chart sphere". Both charts are showing the exact same data and are animating through the same times.

In the chart sphere, white is the horizon line, and green are the 3D Campanus house boundaries. The purple lines indicate the ecliptic and zodiac sign boundaries, which change orientation relative to local space during the day. 2D Campanus cusps can be seen where the purple ecliptic line intersects the green 3D Campanus lines. When the ecliptic is nearly parallel with the horizon, it will produce small 2D Campanus cusps, however regardless of how the ecliptic moves, the 3D boundaries are fixed in size and position and never move.

campanus.gif




Hello Cruiser1,



thank you for your detailed response.



1) By taking into account the latitude (ecliptic) of the celestial bodies, the 3D image makes it possible to place the planets in the houses in conformity with reality. We can note the change of house of Pluto at a precise moment which will be different from that given by the 2D image. For example, can you make an animation applied to the birth chart of Anni Frid Synni Lyngstad, singer of the group ABBA, born beyond the Arctic Circle? I would find it interesting to see the passage of Pluto from house X to house XI Campanus 3D especially if you can make freeze frames and give in comparison the 2D image at the same time: https://www-astro-com.translate.goo...tr_sl=en&_x_tr_tl=fr&_x_tr_hl=fr&_x_tr_pto=sc


2) The interest is obviously to validate the 3D choice, according to the evidence of the importance of the latitude, from births very close to reality and with astral positions precisely defined with respect to a reference frame (between the limits of a 3D house) allowing an objective study which leads to the establishment of predictable facts, including the interpretation of houses, during specific periods in the life of the native. From a prediction method, were you able to carry out a quantitative study with very high frequency results allowing the 3D Campanus system to impose itself for births below the Polar Circle or failing that in the rest of the world?



Ecliptique. :smile:
 

Cruiser1

Well-known member
yeats_hou.gif


1) By taking into account the latitude (ecliptic) of the celestial bodies, the 3D image makes it possible to place the planets in the houses in conformity with reality. We can note the change of house of Pluto at a precise moment which will be different from that given by the 2D image. For example, can you make an animation applied to the birth chart of Anni Frid Synni Lyngstad, singer of the group ABBA, born beyond the Arctic Circle?
This is something anybody can check for themselves in Astrolog. :D Simply toggle its "Setting / House Settings / 3D Houses" setting on, and planets will be placed according to the 3D version of the house, after which you can notice planets will shift house position slightly. If you do this with the chart for ABBA singer Anni-Frid Lyngstad, it turns out none of her planets will change houses when switching between 2D and 3D Campanus. (After all, just because planets can sometimes change house, doesn't mean it will happen in all charts.) A simple diagram like the above shows how 3D houses work compared to normal houses, and when house changes do happen. As the accompanying article by Deborah Houlding says:

"Rudhyar also proposed that a future development of the houses could utilize Campanus as the basis of a three dimensional 'birth sphere', in which the effect of planetary latitude could be fully acknowledged; although to do so requires some alternative way of representing this information other than our two-dimensional chart forms which only show measurements along the ecliptic. Those who consider the three dimensional perspective important, argue that defining house positions by zodiacal degree alone can often prove inaccurate since it assumes that the cusps cut through the ecliptic in a straight line whereas in reality the lines are curved..."

2) The interest is obviously to validate the 3D choice, according to the evidence of the importance of the latitude... From a prediction method, were you able to carry out a quantitative study with very high frequency results allowing the 3D Campanus system to impose itself for births below the Polar Circle or failing that in the rest of the world?
I haven't conducted research to "prove" whether 3D houses are more accurate than 2D houses, although it certainly seems better for the reasons described! :) Note that 3D Campanus produces house positions exactly the same as 2D Campanus for objects exactly on the ecliptic, such as the Sun and Moon's Nodes. For other objects, especially those with larger ecliptic latitudes such as Pluto, asteroids, and especially fixed stars, they have a much higher change of moving to different houses.

For example, the Astrolog page for its wheel charts gives an example for how Polaris moves from the 2D 6th house (based on its ecliptic zodiac sign position alone), to the 3D 10th house (since Polaris is the North Star and therefore always on the meridian, so accurately considered should always be near the 10th house cusp): https://www.astrolog.org/astrolog/ast3d.htm#wheel
 

Ecliptique

Well-known member
yeats_hou.gif


This is something anybody can check for themselves in Astrolog. :D Simply toggle its "Setting / House Settings / 3D Houses" setting on, and planets will be placed according to the 3D version of the house, after which you can notice planets will shift house position slightly. If you do this with the chart for ABBA singer Anni-Frid Lyngstad, it turns out none of her planets will change houses when switching between 2D and 3D Campanus. (After all, just because planets can sometimes change house, doesn't mean it will happen in all charts.) A simple diagram like the above shows how 3D houses work compared to normal houses, and when house changes do happen. As the accompanying article by Deborah Houlding says:

"Rudhyar also proposed that a future development of the houses could utilize Campanus as the basis of a three dimensional 'birth sphere', in which the effect of planetary latitude could be fully acknowledged; although to do so requires some alternative way of representing this information other than our two-dimensional chart forms which only show measurements along the ecliptic. Those who consider the three dimensional perspective important, argue that defining house positions by zodiacal degree alone can often prove inaccurate since it assumes that the cusps cut through the ecliptic in a straight line whereas in reality the lines are curved..."

I haven't conducted research to "prove" whether 3D houses are more accurate than 2D houses, although it certainly seems better for the reasons described! :) Note that 3D Campanus produces house positions exactly the same as 2D Campanus for objects exactly on the ecliptic, such as the Sun and Moon's Nodes. For other objects, especially those with larger ecliptic latitudes such as Pluto, asteroids, and especially fixed stars, they have a much higher change of moving to different houses.

For example, the Astrolog page for its wheel charts gives an example for how Polaris moves from the 2D 6th house (based on its ecliptic zodiac sign position alone), to the 3D 10th house (since Polaris is the North Star and therefore always on the meridian, so accurately considered should always be near the 10th house cusp): https://www.astrolog.org/astrolog/ast3d.htm#wheel






Hello Cruiser1,


maybe you are right that there is no need to "prove" anything since the reality is that the latitude would have to be taken into account?



Thank you for your spotlight on the Campanus 3D house model.



Ecliptique. :smile:
 

Cruiser1

Well-known member
placidus.gif


maybe you are right that there is no need to "prove" anything since the reality is that the latitude would have to be taken into account?
Well, it's challenging to scientifically prove anything in astrology. Only Gauquelin with his Mars Effect has come close to measuring astrological effects in a statistically valid manner. That means (at least for now) that much of astrology is subjective, and based on what feels right to each person. The celestial sphere is 3D, so it seems right to me to take latitude into account. However, others might think that the ecliptic is supreme, and therefore astrology should be 2D and latitude can be ignored, in which case classic 2D houses would be more "correct".

Thank you for your spotlight on the Campanus 3D house model.
Note that there are 3D models of all classic house systems. :) Any classic house system can be converted into a 3D house system which takes latitude in to account, by drawing 3D lines from the North to South points on the local horizon, which pass through the ecliptic at the point of the 2D house cusp. For example, Placidus houses in 3D can be seen above, which looks similar to 3D Campanus except the 3D Placidus wedges are different sized.

However, I claim 3D Campanus is the best 3D system, since it's the one system whose 3D model is composed of 12 equal sized wedges, and is also aligned with both the horizon and meridian. For this reason, I like to call 3D Campanus "3D Equal houses", since it's an equal system in 3D, but is also a quadrant system since it aligns with both the horizon and meridian.
 

Ecliptique

Well-known member
placidus.gif


Well, it's challenging to scientifically prove anything in astrology. Only Gauquelin with his Mars Effect has come close to measuring astrological effects in a statistically valid manner. That means (at least for now) that much of astrology is subjective, and based on what feels right to each person. The celestial sphere is 3D, so it seems right to me to take latitude into account. However, others might think that the ecliptic is supreme, and therefore astrology should be 2D and latitude can be ignored, in which case classic 2D houses would be more "correct".

Note that there are 3D models of all classic house systems. :) Any classic house system can be converted into a 3D house system which takes latitude in to account, by drawing 3D lines from the North to South points on the local horizon, which pass through the ecliptic at the point of the 2D house cusp. For example, Placidus houses in 3D can be seen above, which looks similar to 3D Campanus except the 3D Placidus wedges are different sized.

However, I claim 3D Campanus is the best 3D system, since it's the one system whose 3D model is composed of 12 equal sized wedges, and is also aligned with both the horizon and meridian. For this reason, I like to call 3D Campanus "3D Equal houses", since it's an equal system in 3D, but is also a quadrant system since it aligns with both the horizon and meridian.


Hello Cruiser1,


you have summed up the situation well. I also believe that the latitude of the stars must be taken into account. From Gauquelin's statistics, I retain the general idea. I think that for any statistical study, it is necessary to ensure that the times of birth are very close to reality.

The interpretation of a birth chart with a 2D system and with a 3D model can present some differences. For births at very high latitudes, the results obtained from the astral positions in each 3D system should be compared using a prediction system. What seems interesting to me is to be able to predict a certain future experience for the native even with a subjective element. I think that by applying this study to births near or beyond the Polar Circle, it is possible to try to prove astrology via a 3D or 2D house system...


Ecliptique. :smile:
 

Cruiser1

Well-known member
I also believe that the latitude of the stars must be taken into account.
Note that fixed stars often have very high latitudes above or below the ecliptic, and therefore can have very different 2D versus 3D house positions. For example, the North Star Polaris in 3D houses will always be Conjunct the 3D 10th house boundary, since Polaris is always on the local meridian. However, in 2D houses the North Star will be treated no different from any planet in Gemini, and will cycle through the 12 houses once each day.

From Gauquelin's statistics, I retain the general idea.
Gauquelin sectors and Gauquelin sector charts are actually rather similar to 3D houses, because they both measure position relative to the local horizon. For example, when a planet is above the horizon, it's always in Gauquelin sectors 1-18, and when a planet is below the horizon it's in sectors 19-36. That's similar to how when a planet is above the horizon, it's always in the 7th through 12th 3D houses, and when a planet is below the horizon it's always in the 1st through 6th 3D houses.
 

Ecliptique

Well-known member
Hello Cruiser1,



so to summarize:

- with the 3D quadrant system, the problem of the latitude of the planets is solved.

- Gauquelin used the Placidus 2D system for his 36 sectors and you use the Campanus 3D system (thereby avoiding approximations of the Placidus 3D system especially with regard to births in very high latitudes) with 36 sectors (3 x 12 "houses" numbered in reverse) of the diurnal movement. The distribution of the planets in these 36 sectors is intended to allow the establishment of statistics.



Ecliptique. :smile:
 
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