Biblical Implications, 26 quotes about us going to hell

Renee35

Well-known member
Howdy,

I believe in God and I'm agnostic, the bible has 20 + verses saying we're going to hell for being stargazers, the one about us being like a moth unto a flame is the most frightening...

It also says men who cut their hair are going to hell and people that are gay, but that's only covered once or twice.

Meanwhile, we stargazers are poked at over 20 times...

What are your thoughts??
 

petosiris

Banned
''I believe in God and I'm agnostic'' are you not theistic rather than agnostic then?

Divination, including astrology, is permitted and practiced by many Jews of history. Abraham ibn Ezra wrote a few astrological books, but he is also known for biblical commentary amongst Jews. Some talmudists saw it as permissible, others did not.

The Christians simply misunderstood the Old Testament distinction of permitted signs vs pagan divination, for the Hebrew has special words where divination is not the correct word to translate it, because if you take the word in its most obvious sense, a few Prophets and Rabbis will be guilty of divination.

In the Talmud, Rabbi Ammi basically endorses three particular forms of divination, although he does not recognize any of them as divination:
He who wishes to ascertain whether he will live through the year or not shall, during the ten days between the New Year and the Day of Atonement, kindle a lamp in a house wherein there is no draught. If the light continues to burn he may know that he will live through the year. He who desires to engage in business and wishes to ascertain whether he will succeed or not, let him rear up a cock; if it grows plump and fine he will succeed. He who desires to set out on a journey and wishes to ascertain whether he will return home again or not. let him station himself in a dark house; if he sees the reflection of his shadow he may know that he will return home again. [This, however, is not a proper thing to do, lest his courage fail him and he meet with misfortune in consequence]. - http://www.come-and-hear.com/horayoth/horayoth_12.html

Of the Bible, there is the oneiromancy of Joseph, his ''cup for divination'', Daniel being chief of the Chaldeans and diviners, rhabdomancy in Hosea 4, divination by arrows in II Kings 13, divination by shadows in 2 Kings 20, and by some definitions of divination - the Urim and Thummim and casting of lots in the New Testament. Luke 21:25 takes it for granted that people will understand obvious omens (I argue that Sun and Moon and stars signs of something other than astronomy are by definition - practice of astrology).

It is most likely that Astrology, like exitospicy was viewed as Chaldean practice, and so rejected, but there is nothing inherently bad with observing certain signs (divination in some sense), rather than divination (in some sense). Most stargazers mentions are involved with practicing astrology for the Babylonian empire, and so Eliyah will obviously mock them.
 
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rahu

Banned
Howdy,

I believe in God and I'm agnostic, the bible has 20 + verses saying we're going to hell for being stargazers, the one about us being like a moth unto a flame is the most frightening...

It also says men who cut their hair are going to hell and people that are gay, but that's only covered once or twice.

Meanwhile, we stargazers are poked at over 20 times...

What are your thoughts??

I wished you would give these 20 verse of condemnation as I have never see them. I can only remember1.

rahu
 

greybeard

Well-known member
Some points about the bible and astrology:

Gen 2:14...stars etc are for SIGNS.
Rev 22:2 ... 12 manner of fruits, each in its month.

These 2 chapters are the first and last in the bible.

And then...If God abhors astrology and its practitioners...Why did He send 3 astrologers to adore the newborn Jesus?
 

Cary2

Banned
The Jewish faith as represented and reported in the Bible was not so monolithic as is often believed. For example, we know from historians that there was another significant sect of Jew other than the Pharisees and the Sadducees, the Essenes, yet they are never mentioned in the New Testament. This is because they were deeply despised by the Pharisees and the Sadducees. Yet, it is likely, according to historians, that both Jesus and John the Baptist came from Essene parents and were trained in the Essene faith.

From earliest history, the Jews were confused about the nature of life after death. Sheol is often translated as hell, but it is more appropriate to translate it as "the grave" because it was poorly described and poorly understood. For centuries, Sheol is where everyone who died went, and the existence there was so shadowy and vague that little can be said about it. To many, it didn't count as life after death because the quality of life seemed incomplete, though this was probably due to the lack of understanding. Much later, some believers began to believe that Sheol was divided for those who were evil in life and those who were good in life.

In the New Testament, the Pharisees and the Sadducees had bitter arguments about faith and doctrine. The Pharisees believed in life after death, but the Sadducees did not. Only they didn't call it "life after death". Both sides called it "the Resurrection". Mark 12:18-27.

The statements in the Bible that seem to refer to astrology tend to contradict, but those who are intent on condemning astrology simply recite their favorite verse and ignore the countervailing evidence.

In the early 1970's, modern translations were published that capitalized upon improved understanding of ancient language and scripture. Translators were encouraged to use modern terms for older terms if the modern term was a better translation. Hence, Wise Men was translated as "astrologers" because that is the better translation, but this caused a turmoil among believers who had spent decades condemning astrologers as "of the devil". Yet, argued the translators, that is the best translation of the term Wise Men or Magi. The Magi also dabbled in psychic powers and form of divination just as modern astrologers frequently do. Nonetheless, newer versions have deleted the "astrologers" or else they relegated it to the small print in the footnotes because of the controversy.

We know from Edgar Cayce that the Essenes did not inhibit or restrict women, and a woman named Judy was the head of the Essenes in Jesus's time. She was one of Jesus's teachers who taught him astrology. The location of the school was on Mt. Carmel at the site of the school for prophets established in Elijah's time.

The Essenes allowed non-Jewish members, and they shared teachings and information with foreign mystics and priests. In fact, the belief in the coming Messiah was widespread among seekers outside the Jewish faith. Those who anticipated the Messiah accepted that he would be born a Jew. The Essenes were the Jewish sect most intent upon preparing for the Messiah. The visit of the Kings at the birth of Jesus was the work of non-Jews who had predicted the Messiah's birth and location. According to Cayce, the Kings were from Iran, India, and Egypt, and none of them was Jewish.

Modern students of the Bible interpret a prophet as one who foresees the future, but the actual meaning was much closer to what we call today a "psychic". Prophets often did predict the future, but they did other things as well that today we think of as psychic. Prophets had extrasensory knowledge. For example, in John 4:1-19, the Samaritan woman at the well called Jesus a prophet because he read her mind and told her she had five husbands and lived currently with a man she was not married to. She meant he was psychic, which is what the term meant in that day.

*I corrected the verse citations.
 
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Cary2

Banned
This thread is about the disputes that Biblical passages can bring. If you want to investigate what The New Testament says, you can hardly do better than biblegateway.com. If you Google a Bible verse, you will get a response from bilblegateway.com, and you also have the option of choosing which of 61 Bible translations you wish. There is a drop-down selection box that allows you to select one of 61 translations of the Bible to check the verse.

I decided to find how many of the 61 prominent translations reveal that the Wise Men, the Magi, the Kings who visited Jesus's birth site were revealed to be astrologers. The translators themselves do not generally dispute that they were astrologers, but many bible publishers fear bitter controversy if they print the whole truth about "the astrologers". In the interest of brevity, I will list only the versions that reveal, either in the body of text or in the footnotes, that the Magi were astrologers.

Very soon after Jesus was born, Kings from the East, traveling together, arrived at the spot of Jesus's birth, pay homage and give their gifts to the Messiah. Many believers say there were three Kings, but Matthew 2, which records the matter, does not specify that there were three kings, only that there were kings, plural. Such dignitaries from the East would travel in a large entourage for protection.

In first century Palestine there was no such word as astrologer though there were in fact many astrologers who enjoyed considerable prestige. The terms used in that era were "wise men", "Chaldeans", and "Magi". All three terms refer to seers who investigated astrology and other mysteries. There were no scientists in that era, but the seer/astrologers enjoyed a reputation equivalent to what scientists enjoy today. Some historians believe that such Magi were descendants of the scholars managed and assembled by Daniel from the Book of Daniel.

In the "Amplified Bible", the text says "magi (wise men)", but in the footnotes it says, " these were educated men who specialized in astronomy, astrology, and the natural sciences. The magi were witnesses to the miraculous events surrounding the birth of Jesus."

In the "Amplified Bible, Classic Edition", the text says "wise men [astrologers]"

In the "Contemporary English Version", the text says "wise men", but the footnotes say "People famous for studying the stars."

In the "The Disciples' Literal New Testament", the text says "magi", but the footnotes say "That is, wise men/priests/seers/astrologers at least similar (their country is not given) to those in Daniel 2:48. Perhaps their knowledge came from Daniel’s prophecies."

In the "Expanded Bible", the text says "wise men [astrologers; magi; C a class of wise men and priests who practiced astrology]"

"God's Word Translation": in the text is "wise men", but in the footnotes is "astrologers".

"Good News Translation": in the text is "some men who studied the stars".

"J. B. Phillips New Testament": in the text is "party of astrologers ".

"Living Bible": in the text "some astrologers".

"Name of God Bible": in the text is "wise men", but in the footnotes is "astrologers".

"New American Standard Bible": in the text is "magi", but in the footnotes is "A caste of educated men specializing in astronomy, astrology, and natural science"

"New American Standard Bible 1995": as above

"The New Living Translation": in the text "wise men", but in the footnotes "royal astrologers".

"The New Revised Standard Version": in the text "wise men", but in the footnotes "astrologers".

"The New Revised Standard Version Anglicized": above

"The New Revised Standard Version Anglicized Catholic Version": as above

"The Passion Translation": in the text is " a group of spiritual priests", but in the footnotes is "astrologers".

"The World English Bible": in the text was "wise men", but in the footnotes is "The word for 'wise men' (magoi) can also mean teachers, scientists, physicians, astrologers, seers, interpreters of dreams, or sorcerers."

"Wycliffe Bible": in the text "astrologers [kings or wise men]".
 
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