Astrology Shows People are Individuals Not Groups
- Thread starter wilsontc
- Start date
David asked a question about the huge prison population. The astrology answer was to look at Biden/Harris chart as they are directly responsible for the huge amounts of young, black men in prison for frivolous crimes like weed.
A fact is a fact but hopefully, the thread can continue with Tim's original posting which I totally agree with. No matter where you are born, rich, poor, black, white, asian, etc. you are an individual first with your own feelings & thoughts.
Thanks Opal for bringing the thread back to its original intent.
A fact is a fact but hopefully, the thread can continue with Tim's original posting which I totally agree with. No matter where you are born, rich, poor, black, white, asian, etc. you are an individual first with your own feelings & thoughts.
Thanks Opal for bringing the thread back to its original intent.
david starling
Well-known member
Here's a graph about the growth of mass incarceration in the U.S.
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/history-mass-incarceration
The Great Conjunctions might help explain it. Looks like the steep increase began after the one in 1980. That's when the "War on Drugs" went into high gear, and along with it came the profitability and growth of the Prison Industry. Now, 40 years later and a Great Conjunction in 2020, and the rate is just beginning to decline.
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/history-mass-incarceration
The Great Conjunctions might help explain it. Looks like the steep increase began after the one in 1980. That's when the "War on Drugs" went into high gear, and along with it came the profitability and growth of the Prison Industry. Now, 40 years later and a Great Conjunction in 2020, and the rate is just beginning to decline.
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
obviously related to US MUNDANE CHART 2nd House
and the PROFIT MOTIVE
because
When you make prisons profitable
you drive the need for THE INCARCERATION OF INDIVIDUALS
and that is not in the public interest.
Corporate America realized there was money to be made
reinstating slavery by replacing state run prisons
and operating them on a for-profit basis
exploiting the prisoners as slave labor.
Aided and abetted by politicians eager to reduce
if not eliminate federal and state governments
by privatizing their activities
and selling off their assets to reduce debt
corporations such as Corrections Corporation of America (CCA)
began contracting with various states to house their prison inmates.
Amazingly
the corporations insisted on
- and many states agreed to -
so-called lock-up quotas
'...requiring states to pay penalties
if they failed to send enough people to prison
to keep the prisons full....' Frederick leatherman
.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
how long is a piece of string?
That's just vintage WB
wilsontc is entitled to an opinion
similarly WB
.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Cuz she is woke---so she feels it is OK
to be rude and condescending because it is so progressive
Is it ok to be rude and condescending towards wokists?
I think a more correct wording would be 'discussing differences in perspectives'.
I didn't think that CAPITAL wording
....significant of shouting
... was allowed on the forum.
I don't see that in posts that have other views than OP's
whose use of capitals stresses a point.
It 's noticeable that the word 'SOME' appears to have replaced
' every individual'.
A shift in perspective?
As the old saying goes,
You can ???? (add own word) SOME people ALL of the time,
you can ???? ALL people SOME of the time,
You cannot change ALL people ALL of the time.
Does that work in favour of, or against, the context of
discussion in astrological thought?Because her ego will never allow her to admit she's ever wrong.
"...It is thus necessary that THE INDIVIDUAL
should finally come to realize
that his own ego is of no importance
in comparison with
the existence of the nation
that the position of THE INDIVIDUAL is conditioned solely
by the interests of the nation as a whole..."
ADOLF HITLER
.
david starling
Well-known member
A piece of string is twice as long as when it's folded in half.
Just as, an astrological Solar transit is twice as long as when it reaches its halfway point.
Just as, an astrological Solar transit is twice as long as when it reaches its halfway point.
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
TRADITIONALLY Skin Color DOES HAVE an ASTROLOGICAL EXPLANATION according to Ancients
The "...deck is stacked..." due to MUNDANE astrological factors
the following HELLENISTIC methodologyTim, once again you're trying to shoe-horn far more complex realities into your rightwing ideology about erasing social differences so that minority voices may be ignored and everything gets whitewashed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc
waybread,
Let's examine these ideas in the light of astrology and NOT in the light of politics.
Yes, SOME people are going to want to be on the mastodon hunt. And SOME people are going to want to stay home. SOME men will naturally be good hunters and SOME me will need to find OTHER ways to help out around the area.
Tim, have you seriously studied hunter-gatherer cultures? Boys at a very young age got socialized into learning how to hunt. Being a skilled hunter was highly prized and a source of status, especially in the marriage market. The only men with other roles were the elderly who did hunt as young men but who could no longer hunt, and helped out with womens' duties; or the very rare individual who could become a shaman.
Quote:
Astrology shows us this: individuals will have different individual interests. While SOME people will naturally want to behave interactively with others, others will NOT. Saying that just because someone didn't engage in mastodon hunting they can't have any part of the mastodon makes NO sense. Even in a society there will be SOME who embrace the social activities and others who want to do things on their own. Astrology shows us this, too: not EVERYONE is cut out for mastodon hunting.
Tim, you need to read up on anthropology, archaeology, and ethnohistory. You cannot just make it up as you go along. In most hunter-gatherer societies, people could not just "do things on their own."
Survival depended upon collaborative efforts.
Where life was a bit easier, to allow more flexibility, there were strong social sanctions regulating people's behavior.
A big problem was that leaving your band's own territory might plunge you into imprisonment or death in a neighboring tribe's territory.
You cannot simply read your modern urban lifestyle ideas into very different cultures. Please educate yourself!
Quote:
REGARDLESS of the society a person is born into, a person FIRST has their own INDIVIDUAL energies they are born with. These energies underly EVERYTHING they do. That's why SOME people naturally fit into the societies they are born into and OTHERS move AWAY from these societies. Saying you are BORN into a society means you always have to BE in that society or even AGREE with that society, again MAKES NO ASTROLOGICAL SENSE.
So how did this work for enslaved people, Tim? Have you any idea of the punishments for runaway slaves in the American South? What about slavery in Roman times? People couldn't just escape (to where, on foot, mind you.) In some slave-holding societies, slaves were branded or forced to wear welded-on iron collars. They couldn't just assume a new identity. Nobody cared about the slave girl's personality development. She was lucky if she wasn't sexually abused by her master or his sons.
Quote:
IMAGINE being a black boy in the US born into slavery in the Pre-Civil War South. Then the Underground Railroad comes around to your door and lets you know about the FREE NORTH. Imagine the EXCITEMENT for that black slave boy who suddenly is OPENED UP to a NEW WORLD of possibility. And WHEN he escapes to the FREE NORTH, imagine how his world OPENS UP as he sees black preachers, businessmen, and politicians, embraced openly and respected by society. Black men who are free to live out their astrological potential.
What a lovely, pleasant fiction you have, Tim Wilson. The data show something around 4 million enslaved people in the US in 1860. On your Cornwallis thread I reminded you of the Dred Scott Supreme Court decision. Please review it. An escaped slave in a northern state could still be captured and sent back to his master. Northern states still had all kinds of legal discrimination. Nobody knows how many escaped slaves used the Underground Railroad but estimates range from 30,000 to 100,000 That is well under 1% of the enslaved population just in one year (1860.) Very few made it to Canada.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1010169/black-and-slave-population-us-1790-1880/
Quote:
As you know, girls until relatively recently had limited prospects, but eventually that, too, went away, as women gained the right to vote and the right to compete in business with men. Again, while SOME women would choose to go into business OTHERS would not have either the interest or ability and so would choose OTHER things to do, again, based on the skills and abilities indicated in their astrological imprint.
Tim, you are dreaming. Take a look at what happens to girls under Taliban rule. They are not allowed to attend school. Child labor is huge in developing nations. Do you know what happens to women in fundamentalist Muslim societies who are not "properly" veiled or who fall in love with a man their parents disapprove of? Does the expression "honor killings" mean anything to you?
Even in the US, rape is severely under-reported and under-prosecuted. Rightwingers like you are working hard to deny women the right to autonomy over their own sexual health and reproduction. Imagine how you'd like it if the state decided to regulate your sexuality and reproduction.
What do you suppose it is like to grow up in a war zone?
Quote:
While, as you say, there ARE outside forces working on people that affect their ability to choose what they WANT to choose, the astrological fact that there IS an inward WANT that drives and directs them through life. It is THIS INWARD force that is MORE important than the outward force. It is THIS INWARD force that motivates SOME people to continually struggle against the limitations their culture places on them and for OTHERS to simply accept those cultural limitations.
Tim, there is simply no evidence for this claim. This is an entirely western modern view. Traditional western and Vedic astrology are actually fatalistic/deterministic.
One's skin color, religion (or lack thereof,) and parental income are not entirely "outside forces," but are part and parcel of how children get educated and socialized.
And if you're a Black kid holding a candy bar or a toy pistol in a playground and a police officer shoots you dead for it, there goes your inward force and choice in life.
Quote:
While there IS an outward cultural influence on a person, these cultural influences come MUCH LATER than the INWARD influences they have AT BIRTH. Which means that LONG before any cultural conditioning happens people are WHO THEY ARE OUTSIDE of their culture.
Tim, this isn't a typical parenting experience. Kids get socialized immediately. They don't really start thinking until they develop speech.
Quote:
While some focus on the culture and use that as an excuse for people's personal decisions and behavior, astrology shows that LONG before the culture acts on a person, a person has skills and abilities that they long to develop and grow in their life. A GOOD culture helps people realize those skills and abilities, gives them the freedom to explore who they are and who they CAN be. A BAD culture cuts them off from self-exploration and insists that they are who they are based on the color of their skin or some other external factor and have NO ability to develop themselves beyond the limitations set by society.
Tim, socialization starts from the moment the baby is given a pink blanket or a blue blanket. There's a lot of child psychology research showing how parents respond differently to boy or girl infants.
So are you saying that your "free will" edition of modern astrology works only in "Good societies"? So much for astrology's universality.
Quote:
But ultimately these efforts to subdue a person's inner being through indoctrination and cultural conditioning fail. THAT is why dictatorships such as China and others are eventually forced to LOCK PEOPLE UP: because SOME people are FAR too individualistic to be able to effectively and consistently culturally condition them to behave against their nature. Truth will out. People will live out their astrological nature.
About the astrology,
Tim
Oh, c'mon Tim. Maybe it's time to turn to neuroscience. Brain scientists still haven't conclusively found a part of the brain that is the "me" or identity center. Which leads to the scary thought that one's sense of self is developed primarily through cultural conditioning.
Oh, and try being a raving individualist in a typical American public high school.
And what happens after birth? Do you live in a white cocoon where you seldom have meaningful interactions with political liberals or members of very different cultures?
Astrology's story is always only partial. Without supplementary information, a horoscope does not even say whether a person is born male or female. Yet sex and gender have enormous impacts on people's lives. The horoscope doesn't say whether you were born white, Black, or purple.
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=920697#post920697
clearly highlights for interested readers
how the seven classical planets
ARE associated with skin tone
A few tips for assessing "....blackness/whiteness...." aka ".....darkness/lightness...."
"...fairness/darker complexion..."
of skin tones
Important to keep in mind that
it's not unusual for children of the same race
to be fairer or darker complexioned than their siblings
So within the race of white/whitish people
some siblings are darker/lighter complexioned than others
and likewise
within the race of black/blackish people
some siblings are darker/lighter complexioned than others
and so for rectification purposes
Focusing on height, weight, bone structure, eye colour
gives overall good results
Black people with Blue eyes and other ethnicities
Parts 1 and 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vhW7rR6VDg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCPBpCWm89Y
.
wilsontc
Well-known member
waybread,
My point is that different boys will have different abilities. Not EVERYONE is a good hunter. While being a good hunter is most valued in a hunting society it is NOT an ability EVERYONE has. People's abilities vary according to their astrological signature, just as not EVERYONE is a good athlete or is highly muscularly coordinated. SOME boys in a hunting society because of their LACK of hunting skills will NOT be valued...but THEY WILL EXIST.
In the US it worked out VERY WELL for the enslaved people. As mentioned, slaves could escape to the North and there Northerners worked to PROTECT those slaves from returning to slavery. While there WAS the Fugitive Slave Act, people in the North still worked to help protect the fugitive slave and keep them from returning into slavery. In addition, in the North there WERE free blacks were were NOT EVER slaves so they WERE preachers, businessmen, and politicians. Once the Civil War was over slavery was ELIMINATED. That meant that ALL former slaves WERE truly free to develop themselves and many of them DID. This continuous striving to better themselves led to further civil rights later on. The US is a place about helping people develop their life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness so they can live out their astrological potential.
Glad you brought up the point about Taliban rule. This is an example of a BAD culture, a culture which PREVENTS a person from living up to their astrological potential. A culture which DOESN'T believe in individual freedom of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for EVERYONE. So, yes, astrological potential can ONLY be lived out in free societies because OTHER societies STOP a person's astrological potential. And THAT'S BAD.
My point about socialization is it always happens AFTER individualization. A person is BORN who they are, with their full potential skills and abilities. As a baby they have no ability to EXPRESS this individuality, but it is STILL THERE INSIDE them, urging them, pushing them in certain directions. Later on, when socialization occurs it can either HELP develop those individual skills and abilities or HURT them. But it can NOT STOP these inner workings. These astrological inner workings are ALWAYS there, no matter WHAT culture a person is in or decides to adopt. BTW babies are BORN colorblind so they're NOT immediately affected by the color of blanket they're under.
Online astrologers DON’T ask a person’s race, culture, or sex before giving an astrological interpretation. That is because those things DON’T MATTER in terms of the person’s astrological chart indicating their interests, skills, and abilities. The astrological chart is the POTENTIAL of the person. The online astrologer is there to give the person an idea of that potential and it’s up to the person to put it into action as best they can given their race, culture, or sex. Of these three, culture IS something that can be changed, so sometimes it will necessary for a person to live out their potential to LEAVE a culture that does not nurture their life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness as indicated in the astrological chart.
Astrology CLEARLY shows that people are born with their own life energy and path from the moment of their first breath. With their own hopes and desires, not fully realized but always there in the background, driving EVERYTHING they do. So, no matter WHAT "culture" decides to push on a person, a person at heart is their OWN person and simply needs an astrologer to OPEN UP their potential by showing them that "urging" they've ALWAYS felt is REAL and helping them clearly to see themselves and their astrological potential.
About the inner, astrological nature of people,
Tim
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david starling
Well-known member
Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World" dealt with this issue in a futuristic, fictional setting.
We're each immersed in cultural surroundings, beginning in our formative years, that try to make an individual as defined by the Natal-chart, "just another brick in the wall".
The consequences of not socially and/or traditionally conforming are more, or less, drastic depending on the nature of those cultural forces relative to the nature of one's Chart.
We're each immersed in cultural surroundings, beginning in our formative years, that try to make an individual as defined by the Natal-chart, "just another brick in the wall".
The consequences of not socially and/or traditionally conforming are more, or less, drastic depending on the nature of those cultural forces relative to the nature of one's Chart.
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waybread
Staff member
It's called "analysis," AppLeo. These aren't personal attacks, but critiquing Tim's ideas. Are they logical or not? Consistent with evidence or not?
No need to personalize it.
waybread
Staff member
waybread
Staff member
Because her ego will never allow her to admit she's ever wrong.
That's not a personal attack, is it?
How does it relate to the OP?
waybread
Staff member
Actually, it's due to her Trump Derangement Syndrome. Ever since she discovered that Tim is not part of the 'Lunatic Left, Cancel Culture' she has really set her claws on him! The derogatory names she has called me because I'm a Trump supporter would make a grown man blush! But that's justified with her because the fake news does the same.
Another personal attack?
How does this relate to the OP?
Blackbery I can take this kind of mud-slinging all day, but it's a big hijack of the thread.
Can you focus on the astrological isssues Tim raised?
david starling
Well-known member
According to the U.S. Supreme Court, Corporations are entitled to Individual rights.
This has been interpreted by some as saying that "A Corporation is a Person".
This has been interpreted by some as saying that "A Corporation is a Person".
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No need to personalise it?
Here are your own 'personalised' words:
"Tim, you need to read up on anthropology, archaeology, and ethnohistory.
You cannot just make it up as you go along.
Tim, Please educate yourself!
Do you live in a white cocoon where you seldom have meaningful interactions with political liberals or members of very different cultures? "
It sounds to me like you were being very personal and disrespectful.
And much of what you were putting out as FACT is just academic leftwing theory. But you are putting it out as if it is settled science.l
david starling
Well-known member
Now we're getting somewhere!
Katydid, can you list some of the "academic leftwing" theories which you believe that waybread is subjectively treating as scientific facts?
waybread
Staff member
Tim, I'm afraid you keep changing your arguments. Happily, though, I think they are now trending on the side of recognizing the limits to unbridled individuation. The ability to self-actualize is indeed sharply curtained in authoritarian societies-- as well as in many (former) traditional societies that the European Enlightenment passed by.
But your next paragraph is shocking. It is a whitewash of African American history if ever there was one. As I demonstrated in yesterday's post, probably under 1% of the number of enslaved Americans in 1860 alone were able to escape on the Underground Railroad. Thanks to the Dred Scott SCOTUS decision of 1857, Blacks who made it to northern free states could be legally captured and returned to their southern Masters. Their northern freedom was by no means guaranteed.
Put differently, enslaved African Americans were probably 4 million people in 1860. They were a tiny fraction of the population of northern states and territories, even in those bordering slave states. Then many faced real discrimination in northern states, as well; just not chattel slavery.
Have you any idea of the brutality of chattel slavery?
Tim, you have completely ignored the post-Civil War share cropper economic system that replaced the old plantations. You have completely ignored the horrible discriminatory Jim Crow laws that suppressed Black voting rights and economic aspirations in the South. Please, please read about them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharecropping
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws
Please, please read about the discrimination that ultimately led to the Voting Rights Act of 1965 and Civil Rights Act of 1964. While you're at it, you might want to consider what Martin Luther King, Medgar Evers, Rosa Parks, Fannie Lou Hamer, and John Lewis, among others, were fighting for.
Compared with where this thread started, that's progress.
This is an interesting theory but can you name any childhood development experts who would agree with you?
And can you imagine that a particular government might work fine and dandy for middle class white people, but be utterly repressive towards Black people? Not just in the US, but think about South Africa or the former African colonies in general.
The more you wish to make this case, the less realistic it becomes. People become socialized by the cultures in which they are raised. You were. I was. So is everybody. Possibly you are skillful enough to see whether a nativity indicates a birth defect or whether, at the age of 2 a child will sustain brain damage from a serious accident.
Your theory is also entirely focused on a particular form of modern western astrology. You won't find this in traditional western or Vedic astrology, which are far more fatalistic. So are you saying that only one version of modern western astrology is the correct version?
What concerns me the most Tim, is how you are trying to whitewash American history to bolster a kind of anti-CRT rightwing thesis.
But your next paragraph is shocking. It is a whitewash of African American history if ever there was one. As I demonstrated in yesterday's post, probably under 1% of the number of enslaved Americans in 1860 alone were able to escape on the Underground Railroad. Thanks to the Dred Scott SCOTUS decision of 1857, Blacks who made it to northern free states could be legally captured and returned to their southern Masters. Their northern freedom was by no means guaranteed.
Put differently, enslaved African Americans were probably 4 million people in 1860. They were a tiny fraction of the population of northern states and territories, even in those bordering slave states. Then many faced real discrimination in northern states, as well; just not chattel slavery.
Have you any idea of the brutality of chattel slavery?
Tim, you have completely ignored the post-Civil War share cropper economic system that replaced the old plantations. You have completely ignored the horrible discriminatory Jim Crow laws that suppressed Black voting rights and economic aspirations in the South. Please, please read about them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharecropping
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws
Please, please read about the discrimination that ultimately led to the Voting Rights Act of 1965 and Civil Rights Act of 1964. While you're at it, you might want to consider what Martin Luther King, Medgar Evers, Rosa Parks, Fannie Lou Hamer, and John Lewis, among others, were fighting for.
Compared with where this thread started, that's progress.
This is an interesting theory but can you name any childhood development experts who would agree with you?
And can you imagine that a particular government might work fine and dandy for middle class white people, but be utterly repressive towards Black people? Not just in the US, but think about South Africa or the former African colonies in general.
The more you wish to make this case, the less realistic it becomes. People become socialized by the cultures in which they are raised. You were. I was. So is everybody. Possibly you are skillful enough to see whether a nativity indicates a birth defect or whether, at the age of 2 a child will sustain brain damage from a serious accident.
Your theory is also entirely focused on a particular form of modern western astrology. You won't find this in traditional western or Vedic astrology, which are far more fatalistic. So are you saying that only one version of modern western astrology is the correct version?
What concerns me the most Tim, is how you are trying to whitewash American history to bolster a kind of anti-CRT rightwing thesis.
waybread
Staff member
To my fan club out there (and you know who you are,) it would actually be helpful, if you dislike my posts, if you could dispute my facts or come up with alternate theories of childhood development. If you have different versions of American history that counter mine, do bring them on.
It seems that your principal form of rebuttal is to accuse me of being rude. Which is ironic, in light of your posts. So please, focus on the issues.
And please go beyond dismissing the issues as merely leftist academic twaddle. That doesn't support your argument, either.
It seems that your principal form of rebuttal is to accuse me of being rude. Which is ironic, in light of your posts. So please, focus on the issues.
And please go beyond dismissing the issues as merely leftist academic twaddle. That doesn't support your argument, either.
AppLeo
Well-known member
You talk to people like they're stupid.
You wanna know why people are individuals and not groups?
Because everyone has their own mind. Everyone has their own thoughts and control over their mind.
Everyone has their own stomach. Everyone must eat their own food.
It's a clear physical fact that everyone is their own person with their own body, which is why we cast charts for people when they are born, as soon as they become a self-sustaining entity unattached to the mother.